Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: mikebonne on June 11, 2011, 02:42:48 PM
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Hello all and thanks for all your help as always...This fish vase I have.... I was reading old posts on here from 2009 and this fish vase that I also have was identified as being a Josef Inwald Barolac piece. I have this vase and unlike the one from 2009, mine has a signature. I have not found the vase in any Inwald references and just assumed it to be an unknown Bohemian or possibly French item. With my new camera I can get a good pic of the signature so wondered if anyone can actually identify this please?
thanks again Markus
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Just wondering, could someone have tried to give it a fake Lalique signature (R Lalique)?
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That was my first thought.
John
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Mine to.
Mike
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Mine four.
:grrr:
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Goodness me...you are all a bit quick on the "fake" route.... it has never crossed my mind that it says Lalique as anyone that knows the Scripted lalique mark would know that this is nothing like that. Are you making accusations here?? This has been in my attik for 10 years and was my mum's and grandmother's previous and she would have bought it with her from Belgium
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Sorry Markus, was not making any kind of accusation. I certainly wasn't implying you had done it yourself and then posted the pics here for us all to see, it was just a suggestion, as it looked a lot like "R Lalique" to me.
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If it's dremeled it must be fake. Real glass makers use diamond point.
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I'm probably more familiar with "fake" Lalique signatures on odd and decidedly non-Lalique bits of glass than i am with the correct mark!
No accusations at all - (where did that come from? :thud: ) - it merely looks as if somebody, at some point in time, has put this mark on a vaguely Lalique-y piece.
Can you make out any of the letters in the mark at all? (apart from the R and the L, and the sort of q-ish downstroke towards the end)
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Not pointing the finger of dishonesty at you Marcus or your dear grandmother.
These fakers (have I spelt that correctly?) have no qualms who they pass their naughty bits onto.
Mike
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Hmmm, just looked at the signature again, and thought I could make out the numbers 74321, so I googled "Lalique 74321" and found this, same vase, exact same signature:
http://global.ebay.com/SIGNED-LALIQUE-74321-SWIMMING-FISH-VASE/220790268825/item (http://global.ebay.com/SIGNED-LALIQUE-74321-SWIMMING-FISH-VASE/220790268825/item)
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Okay...sorry all but I do not think it's meant to be Lalique - I have many R Lalique pieces and no comparrison....there is no Q or downstroke and the main word is another R as there is a downstroke that doesn't come out on the pic and it's identical to the first R.
It is obviously a good piece of pressed glass as the finishing is excellent and it's quite thick.
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another one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&&item=390321461343&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:GB:1120) without sig
::)
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Sorry not intending to cast any aspersions here, apart from on the sig itself.
can you show us a photograph of the side of the vase we cant see? It looks like a vase in one of the Barolac images that come on the CD with Markus Newhall's book Art Before Industry but I can't see enough to judge yay or nay.
John
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Hi John
The vase is basically 4 large fish in various positions amongst the weed. This is the other part you cannot see. It would be nice if it is Barolac as I have the vase with Sea Horse handles and thought that was the only piece with a fish theme. Thanks for your imput. Markus
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It's difficult to say for sure but it does look like a vase (pat no 11062, at the top of the list) which has a wavy rim, difficult because the drawing does not give as much detail as your photos but the fins look right..... Height in the catalogue is given as 190mm. That about right?
John
Found this with a simple google, related? http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8991338
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Hello. The vase is 190mm tall and now that you ahve given me the number 11062 I have been able to find a drawing of it in the Barolac Catalogue. Thanks so much. that is all I wanted to know really that it was deffinitely Josef Inwald and it would have been nice to be able to identify the signature but it's not important.
Thanks all - Markus
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The signature does not belong, chances are somebody was trying to have it masquerade as a piece of Lalique.
Always good to get an id though.
A nephew has a tropical fish business and the family have become somewhat fish orientated. ::)
I am always on the lookout for fish related odds and sods, this would be just the kind of thing I would pick up for them, very nice.
John
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mmmmmmmmm looks suspiciously wrong to me too I am afraid. All the bits I have come across at auctions, the signature is always very tiny and around the very edge on the underside or base edge area
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You got the wrong end of the thread! It was never aksed if this was Lalique. It is NOT and we have always known that
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I'm afraid you did not make that clear, Markus - you have "Lalique ?????" in your title - and when some of suggested that the marks on the base might be a (fake) attempt at "Lalique", you got upset, assuming we were accusing you of having done it!
Now you're saying we all knew all along that it's not Lalique. :spls: :spls: :spls:
Perhaps if you had worded your query a bit more clearly, misunderstandings and assumptions of what others were saying or what it actually was you were asking about, could have been avoided.
I personally was not sure what you were asking in the first place, and was certainly not aware that you are familiar with/ have a lot of Lalique to start off with.
When one sees something like this turning up on the gmb, one tends to assume some novice has been diddled.
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If you go to the beginning of the thread you will see I was just asking if anyone recognized the signature. I did NOT put Lalique on the title..someone has added that along the way as all everyone wanted to do was say that it was NOT Lalique and I knew that anyway. I just wanted confirmation of the vase being made by Josef Inwaldand if the signature was recognized. Of course..too many people always want to jump and say what something is NOT rather than share their knowledge of what it may be.
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None of us knew you hadn't put Lalique in the title - why didn't you just ask right away if it could be confirmed as Inwald, and what might the signature read (and that you knew it wasn't Lalique) - that would have made it clear.
I don't think our moderators go around changing folk's titles without being asked to do so in the first place, but if this is what has happened to you, please don't take it out on the folk taking an interest in your query - we've only got the typewritten words here to go on, and I have read every single one from the beginning on - and my (and other's) impression of what you were saying/asking is clearly quite different to yours.
I'm also sure if somebody did recognise this mark as a signature, they would have said so.
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Everyone taking part in this thread is attempting to help the identification of this item. Possibly a Moderator added the - Lalique ??? part to the title to attract more responses for you, as the signature does look like R.Lalique, as people have pointed out. By attractring more responses to your thread, you have a greater chance of finding out exactly what you have, obviously.
Of course..too many people always want to jump and say what something is NOT rather than share their knowledge of what it may be.
This is really unfair to members of the GMB who give their help without charge and gladly. :-\
To move this thread on a bit, is it possible that if this item is Inwald, that it would be signed at all?
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Factory pieces like this are rarely signed and not too often marked, when they might be acid etched or have some kind of mark as part of the mould. Sometimes, the unscrupulous add signatures to try to boost value; sometime previous owners get Dremel happy and add their names.
Assuming the "signed" one on ebay is not yours, two identical signatures seem a little odd. There is the possibility that they might be retailer marks I suppose.
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This is Barolac, I can't recall the exact number but it's a variant of the 11100 pattern (just noticed John has already ID'd it as 11062 above). This one with the plain frosted finish looks decidedly post-war. For comparison here's a nice early 11100 vase with the taller rim from my collection: http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2446
The mark is completely wrong - I agree it's probably an attempt at an R. Lalique mark, but it's a very poor one. Unfortunately there's a lot of Czech glass in circulation that has been damaged in this way - I really wonder why as Lalique's production has been very well documented.
Regarding your vase, it could be Inwald production, though the Barolac patterns were later made at Rosice and, more recently, Libochovice issued some designs, though the mould quality on the Libs pieces was markedly poor. Marcus Newhall has commented on the Libs versions on PK, and much of my Barolac collection has also been featured there.
Genuine Barolac marks are either acid stamp marks or are moulded, sometimes with an additional 'Made in Czecho-Slovakia' acid stamp. Some pieces destined for the French market carried a 'Tchécoslovaquie' acid stamp. On one occasion I saw a Barolac roses vase with a diamond point 'Barolac' mark, but I don't know if it was original. A great deal of Barolac, both early and more recent production, is unmarked.
Steven
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Surely when a moderator alters any posting this is shown on the post.
Mike
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No, it's not always shown on a post if a Moderator changes something. I've altered titles without anyone knowing before and it's usually in order to get the right kind of collector/expert to view a thread or to correct spelling or something like that. :)
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I added Lalique??? to the topic to attract the attention of those members of the board with specialist knowledge - Lalique production is well-documented, as has been stated on the board in earlier topics, and we have members who are extremely familiar with both Lalique patterns and signatures.
Having their input into this topic would be a benefit to many members, especially as it appears there is more than one of these bearing what appears to some to be a false Lalique signature. Members who have been here for some time will recall a somewhat notorious seller who sold many items with doubtful or spurious signatures and it is possible that these date from that time. Many of them did not look like the genuine signatures either, hence the possible connection to yours and the other signed one. Of course, they could be entirely legit Barolac production signed by someone at the Czech factory which made them, but that seems doubtful.
The only time it shows in a post if a Mod has changed it is if we manually add a Mod note, which we do when we amend the text of a post for some reason, rather than a subject line.
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Rod PGCC has got one too - similarly marked (http://cgi.ebay.de/Art-Deco-Josef-Inwald-Barolac-Satin-Glass-Fish-Vase-/350470303083?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item5199a86d6b)
:wsh:
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Rod PGCC has got one too - similarly marked (http://cgi.ebay.de/Art-Deco-Josef-Inwald-Barolac-Satin-Glass-Fish-Vase-/350470303083?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item5199a86d6b)
:wsh:
Spotted that this morning too, same pics as Markus' original post though, so I'm assuming it's his listing.
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Am I mistaken.....surely this is the same vase?????
Markus, are you 'just-nice-things??
I don't know who Rod PGCC is Pamela, but these two pictures of the signature in your link and Markus's are identical, and I found the eBay listing and assumed Markus had decided to sell it, as that one is the same one.
We've just 'clashed' Wayne!!
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just-nice-things of eBay used to be Rod Crowshaw of Pressed Glass Collectors Club PGCC (http://www.webspawner.com/users/pressedglass/)
:sm:
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Looking at the business seller info at the bottom of the listing, "Just Nice Things Ltd" is run by "Tom Allati" now.
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Well I enjoy a good mystery, so I did some digging and I think I have made some sense out of this by following the trail...
The "other" signed vase listed as Lalique here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/220790268825?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm570%26_nkw%3D220790268825%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1), was later relisted here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-SIGNED-FROSTED-PRESSED-GLASS-VASE-C1930-50s-/220793751333?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item3368554725). It was sold on 6th June to ebayer things-from-the-cupboard (check their feedback (http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=things-from-the-cupboard&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer) as a buyer to confirm this). things-from-the-cupboard currently has 1 item for sale here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Harlequin-FIORENZA-Fabric-Luxury-Lined-Curtains-/300565893820?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Curtains_Blinds_Curtains_EH&hash=item45fb1f92bc). Scroll down to the bottom of the listing, where it says "ANY Questions please call Linda at Creative Interiors".
Now, have a look at the business seller information on just-nice-things listing here (http://cgi.ebay.de/Art-Deco-Josef-Inwald-Barolac-Satin-Glass-Fish-Vase-/350470303083?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item5199a86d6b):
Just Nice Things Ltd
Tom Allati
c / o Creative Interiors
From this Watson, I deduce that all the signed vases mentioned in this thread are one and the same, and the bit about this vase being in the attic for 10 years is porkies! ;)
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Strewth!! (Or should I say Sleuth!!). Wayne, you missed your vocation. :no:
I could see they were the same vase. but heck....we all trust each other on this site (or so I thought!) so if this is all porkie pies, why??? What is there to gain except lost credibility?? :thud:
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I don't know Rosie. It's clear that Markus isn't responsible for adding the signature, as it was like that when he (or whoever it was from Creative Interiors) bought it, so I've no idea why he had to claim it was from his attic, just to make out that it wasn't a fake Lalique signature. :huh:
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Strewth!! (Or should I say Sleuth!!). Wayne, you missed your vocation. :no:
I could see they were the same vase. but heck....we all trust each other on this site (or so I thought!) so if this is all porkie pies, why??? What is there to gain except lost credibility?? :thud:
I think we can sell this as a drama series to one of the TV companies. Beats Fagin Hunt.
Mike
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Allati? These images are from Micheal Allati:
http://pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/09274.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,29705.msg160902.html#msg160902
:sm:
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As far as I'm aware Markus (Mikebonne) isn't one of the aforementioned eBay sellers / buyers nor is he connected to Rod Crowshaw of the PGCC (Pressed Glass Correspondence Club) - Rod is nicethings7676 on eBay.
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As far as I'm aware Markus (Mikebonne) isn't one of the aforementioned eBay sellers
If you check the ID history of just-nice-things here (http://contact.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=just-nice-things&guest=1), the account was originally named mike bonne.
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Just Nice Things has a bit of an identity crisis from my own personal experience. I have bought some nice things from him though. :)
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If you check the ID history of just-nice-things here (http://contact.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=just-nice-things&guest=1), the account was originally named mike bonne.
Ahhh thanks Wayne, I hadn't spotted that!