Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on June 17, 2013, 12:23:07 PM
-
This is the only Etruscan type glass/vase I've seen in an opaline in colour other than white (or intense black). Not to everyone's taste probably ;D but I think it's amazing. The intensity of the blue and the colour of the blue is not like anything I've seen. My camera is dulling it slightly, it's more or less the same colour but deeper intensity, as those bright blue thick ring binder files you can get :)
Measures 12" high by about 4 3/4" wide and the thickness of the opaline at the rim is about 1/4".
I'm pretty sure it isn't French. I thought it might be English but the enamel picture isn't very English.
I've not been able to match the shape to English completely although the top, neck and body are similar to some Richardson later cameo pieces I've found. The stem and foot not though.
The foot is open and applied separately to the body. The opaline isn't milchglas/alabaster/opal, it's very thick, but very translucent opaline glass like my early French white opaline cakestands. The rim of the vase and the rim of the foot are cut and polished I think, but they are so well done and so thick they appear to the firepolished.
The picture is handpainted. The outlines were done in a pale white fine line and then painted in, then with black used for the line decoration. The style of the depiction doesn't look English to me.
Anyone seen anything like this, and can pinpoint a country or what the painting depicts please?
Many thanks :) - have added lots of pics ;D
m
-
more pics
-
It's lovely M. No idea who though
-
Could the characters be Greek heroes? the one on the end looks a little like Hercules,maybe ? another great find m, ;D ;D
-
Thank you both :)
It was a great find but not cheap however, I'd mulled it over for months having seen it, and in the end I sold some things to buy it.
Keith I'll go have a look now. Thank you :)
I hate to mention it because at the moment I'm on all things Russian lol, but the horse and rider look kind of Russian. The bridle on the horse is decorative and that seems to be a theme in Russian folk paintings (it may be also Bohemian perhaps but I don't know about that). I was wondering if it was something from a Russian fairy tale story or similar though maybe?
It's a distinct possibility that I'm on completely the wrong track though ;D
m
-
The rider does look different,the curly haired chap looks like one of those philosophers,Aristotle etc... not my subject ::) ;D ;D
-
How come you're sure it isn't French?
-
hello m Unusual piece - regret I'm the least able to offer help - constructive criticism is more possible, though, and hope you won't take my comments as anything other than trying to be helpful. :)
You don't comment on the surface texture - from what little I know about opaline - and especially remembering back to the very long discussion we had some time last year, isn't the surface of opaline supposed to be smooth - whereas this appears almost sand blasted.
You don't mention the sunset glow, so assume this doesn't have same - in which case might this simply be translucent blue glass- rather than opaline??
I notice that Gulliver and Hajdamach discuss the pix/images on generically similar pieces as being 'transfer decorated' - what makes you so certain that this one has been hand painted - can you detect brush strokes, for example?? To my eyes the pictures looks exceptionally uniform in shade of colour - not perhaps the slightly varying shades that might come from painting.
Assuming this to date from the 3rd/4th quarter of the C19, can you see the sort of base wear that you'd expect to find??
think I can see what you mean about the possibility of Russian style in parts of the decoration, but would agree with Ivo that this might have been produced anywhere.
Agree with Keith though - looks a match for Hercules :)
-
quote.............."think I can see what you mean about the possibility of Russian style in parts of the decoration, but would agree with Ivo that this might have been produced anywhere".
Apologies Ivo, that wasn't what you had said. I meant to say.........It could be French, but as Ivo has commented....what makes you so sure it isn't. :) :)
-
Thank you all for your comments :)
Keith, I think Hercules is a real possibility - but I'm struggling to work out who the other characters are and how they fit.
The only drawing or painting I've been able to find that includes some of the characters is this one which has a young lad and horses and an old man - no sign of Hercules though. However I know absolutely nothing about Greek Mythology so haven't the faintest idea how those characters might fit together, or whether they are 'independent' depictions rather than telling a story. I will do some more searching though.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/90034217?rpp=40&pg=1&rndkey=20130617&ft=*&what=Graphite&who=John+Flaxman&pos=26
Ivo, I made the fatal error of using the wrong phrase without being able to support it ;D
I don't know why 'I'm pretty sure it isn't French'. I should have said, 'despite the opaline looking French to me in it's make up, my instinct says it isn't French, based on the shape of the cup, the fat knop at the stem and the design of the painted enamel, and the way the enamel is done. But that's just instinct and I could be wrong.'
Despite what the pics might look like colour wise, it's quite a 'fluorescent' azure blue and I've not actually managed to find any blue opaline glass that looks this colour yet.
I'd love it if it was French :)
Paul,
'You don't comment on the surface texture - from what little I know about opaline - and especially remembering back to the very long discussion we had some time last year, isn't the surface of opaline supposed to be smooth - whereas this appears almost sand blasted.
You don't mention the sunset glow, so assume this doesn't have same - in which case might this simply be translucent blue glass- rather than opaline??'
this vase is opaline glass. For reference - please see the thread where this was discussed at length and in particular on page 11 of that thread a link to Roland Dufrenne's site
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51033.msg290574.html#msg290574
as well as the link to La Cristallerie de Clichy, which shows a large number of opaline piece over a period of time, and demonstrates the development from opaline glass with an opalescence (an example being bulle de savon) to opaline glass that does not show that opalescence.
Opaline glass often has an exterior satin glass surface. Sometimes opaline glass with a satin surface is enamelled and sometimes it isn't. I've posted pics here of a blue perfume which also dates to c mid 1800's (will try and find better pics to demonstrate the opaline of the glass base later)
'Assuming this to date from the 3rd/4th quarter of the C19, can you see the sort of base wear that you'd expect to find??'
I don't assume it dates from the 3rd/4th quarter. Do you have a reference for it being this late in the 19th please?
I believe it dates to c.1850 possibly a bit before or a little later into the 50's - for reference see CH British Glass 1800-1914 page 141 where it says 'After 1851 many of those styles either waned in popularity or disappeared completely' and page 136 which references an Etruscan white opaline vase from Richardson with the similar shape cupped rim etc. Also page 139 where it references Davis Greathead and Green's vast array of colours of 'Egyptian, ETruscan and Grecian styles' glass on display at the 1851 exh.
I notice that Gulliver and Hajdamach discuss the pix/images on generically similar pieces as being 'transfer decorated' - what makes you so certain that this one has been hand painted - can you detect brush strokes, for example?? To my eyes the pictures looks exceptionally uniform in shade of colour - not perhaps the slightly varying shades that might come from painting.
See page 139 where the Davis Greathead and Green vases are discussed and are hand enamelled.
I believe this vase is enamelled. I've attached pictures of a transfer printed vase I have and also close ups of the damage to the decoration on this vase. Perhaps I am wrong? does this look like transfer printed decoration? The one that is transfer printed is completely flat on the glass, you cannot feel anything and you can see where the transfer has slipped on her arm and also on the urn.
On this blue vase the decoration is slightly raised from the surface and you can feel it. Also where there is damage you can see the enamel has flaked and where there is crazing to the enamel surface particularly on the greek key design on the foot for example. My photo isn't very good but it's the closest blow up I can do to show you.
With regards to where it was produced, the shape looks most like a Richardson vase to me but only at the top and the body. The foot and stem do not. The foot and stem look most Bohemian like to me, but the cup not necessarily so. The hollow foot applied to the body in the way it has been reminds me of another of my opaline Bohemian vases and makes me think Bohemian. The purity and elegance of the actual opaline looks French to me but could also be Bohemian or could be English given the plethora of colours apparently exhibited by Davis Greathead and Green. The whole presentation of the vase, the off white on the bright deep blue makes me think it was made to 'replicate' a Wedgwood vase of perhaps an earlier era, which makes me think English. But the decoration looks Russian.
The only thing that looks French on the vase at all to my eye, is the purity of the opaline glass but I've not found a blue to match.
But I could be wrong ;D
m
-
Hercules for sure as he has not only the club but also the lion skin. No clue aboot the rest of the team...
-
Thanks :)
is it possible the boy on horseback is Paris?
There is a painting here with Paris on a horse in the background if you scroll down a bit on the page.
I've not worked out what Paris had to do with Hercules yet though or who the wise man? is .
http://www.maicar.com/GML/Hector1.html
if you google pics of Paris mythology, there are some that are depicted looking like the boy on the horse, the curls, the angelic face and the hat.
pic here if you scroll down a little
http://freshmanartsenglish.wikispaces.com/Mythology
I wished I'd studied harder at school ;D
m
-
Not sure.....
But first thought was GREEK Mythology too. Like in this HERE (http://www.maicar.com/GML/TCSummaries.html)
Those square designs at the bottom in the shape of a square C -- aren't those Greek Designs?
Added:
Like this IMAGE here (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aRTJCdyYld0/TW2gxFttppI/AAAAAAAAASk/AKZijJPLuTw/s1600/art+blog+stuff+028+%25282%2529.JPG) the C scroll shape
-
Nice vase! Yes Rose that's a Greek Key pattern. Has anyone mentioned the guy on the right appears to have a tail?
Edit: Oh wait, is that the lion skin mentioned?
-
I think the boy is a woman and hHercules is stealing the belt of Hippolyta
-
Thank you all for helping - it's much appreciated, I didn't get anywhere near that in my thoughts until you all stepped in (Keith - Heracles was the lead needed) :)
Christine, I had found this and wondered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heracles_gets_the_Belt_of_Hippolyte,_Queen_of_the_Amazons.jpg
and her hat does appear similar. So just to work out what the old man has to do with it now.
Ok, so any thoughts on country of origin now you've all worked so hard for me :-*
I have searched for weeks on this and cannot match the shape, with Richardson being the only ones that are similar.
The enamelling doesn't look anything like any of the figural work they did which seemed to be a lot of transfers.
Mr Giller who decorated Webb vases could be another source, but his designs don't look anything like this either and I've not found a single Webb piece that looks anything like this.
The Davis Greathead and Green vases are hand enamelled also but again nothing like this.
I'm still leaning to Russian or Bohemian for the enamelling - perhaps the enameller worked in the UK at this time?. The shape of the vase pulls me back to the UK, but the colour of the opaline doesn't. On the other hand there is mention of Rice Harris producing a varied number of coloured opalines a well as Davis Greathead Green. Yet in all my internet searches over the years I see precious little coloured opalines identified as English (Richardson yellow opaline bottle shape springs to mind but that's it).
m
-
this may be a better picture of the ninth labour. Hippy is wearing her phrygian hat!
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/HeraclesAndHippolyte.html
I still think it is French.
-
Thank you! much better picture. And Christine thank you :-* So the depiction is one of the labours of Heracles - excellent :)
ok thinking French... is it possible Baccarat? I could definitely go with that given the purity of the opaline and the stunning colour. What do you think about the enamelling? it's possible that could also be French? I've not managed to find anything like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't. The pieces id as French with Figural work on them all seem to be fine art painted and flowery so it's difficult to compare. I guess French enamellers were considered pretty amazing during that period from what I've read and seen. And this is decorated deliberately in 'Etruscan' style so won't look like those.
The big problem I have with identifying French glass shapes of that period, is that it's all 'identified' on the net as French but I'm never really sure it is or whether they are wishful id's. So I'm not sure what I'm checking shape against if you see what I mean?
Ok, I'll look with different 'eyes' on now.
m
-
Adding a pic to my post above
here's a painting of Hyppolyte and Theseus with Hyppolyte in similar clothes to those on my vase.
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1762630&imageID=1624122&total=3&num=0&word=Andrei%2C%20B.&s=3¬word=&d=&c=&f=4&k=3&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=3&e=r&print=small
-
I'm not sure Theseus is wearing much :o
-
shape?
http://www.expertissim.com/verrerie/vase-ovoide-en-opaline-bulle-de-savon-o12123914.html
-
similar ish. Here's another one
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-french-19th-century-oplaine-baluster-vase-in-op-199-c-2c96993bf3
again similar ish
and here are the Richardson white opaline Etruscan vases for shape comparison - the pictures are transfer printed -
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3331856&partId=1
-
Just for future reference, it's taken a while of searching but I've found a Richardsons white opaline vase actually enamelled (rather than transfer printed) with a female Grecian warrior. Dated to 1845-1850
The enamelling is colourful and different to that on my vase. It has a bulbous foot that looks as though it was hollow as well as a knop on the stem, but the shape is not like my vase above and nothing on the vase bears any resemblance to mine.
As a matter of interest, for those who like their glass perfect :), it's in the Stourbridge collection as a Richardson bequest but has a completely damaged foot that is repaired.
Description just in case it disappears is 15.2cm high and 'Vase, white opal glass, waisted body, enamelled with figure of female Grecian warrior holding a spear, gilt swag decoration below rim, knop and domed damaged foot..'
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST125/
m
-
Ok, finally I've found a green opaline vase with classical decoration - Richardson vitrified marked and with a satin surface - for comparison.
The glass looks very like translucent opaline and seems fairly thick.
However it's also transfer decorated and the vase is nothing like my blue one in shape - the only thing in common is that it is coloured opaline glass:
http://www.portobelloglass.com/antique_glass_vases.html
m
-
Continuing my search for French pieces :)
adding to Ivo's shape find and the one I found linked above, I've come across this pair of vases which I think are French.
Again they aren't exactly the same shape but the spirit is similar, the open foot the thickness of the glass at the foot and the way it is rounded/formed, and they have a cupped rim also.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161073168289&item=161073168289&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
In addition to which, I have a few pieces of blue opaline glass and recently acquired this salt (see pic below) which I'm sure is French. It seems to be the same kind of opaline glass, and also the same colour - although photographing them both together to show the colour match has been a tad difficult because the vase is frosted so reflects the light differently.
I've been wondering who the list of possible makers might have been for both pieces and so far for the time frame, can only come up with Baccarat or Clichy - would Sevres have been around at that time?
I've been speculating whether the vase might be Baccarat - is it possible the salt might be from Baccarat and would it date to a similar period as the vase - the blue is uncannily similar/the same?
The salt has a large polished pontil mark on the base - the pontil mark is highly polished, but I tilted it to catch the light so you could see the shape and size of it.
Any thoughts much appreciated and thank you:)
m
Edited to add - St-Louis and Choisy le Roi to possible makers?
-
ok, call me stubborn if you like but I'm afraid I still believe this vase is Russian not French.
Apart from the opaline colour which is a very near match if not a match (see small bucket shaped salt above), looking under French glass I've not been able to find a single other piece that resembles my vase in shape (none with the foot, or merese or the shorter neck going into the cupped rim), colour, blue satin opaline glass in the same colour, or the particular type of enamelling.
By contrast, under Russian Glass, I've searched the Christie's sales going back to 1999 and the Sotheby's sales and also the Hermitage Museum site.
In doing so, I've found many, many vases and ewers dating to the period, that all resemble the shape and proportions of my vase: the particular 'heart' shaped body, the length of the neck, the wide cupped rim (though many have that constructed of ormulu), the rather large 'fat wide' merese that joins the body to the foot and some with the wide bulbous foot, and all with the similar proportions to my vase.
I've also found:
- a Russian 'Etruscan glass' vase that is very different to mine but has a similar design effect that is on the rim of my vase and also has people that look more similar to the way mine are enamelled.
- many pieces of blue opaline glass in satin and that look to be the same colour as mine
- two pieces with what looks to be the same peculiar off white enamel colour decoration on them
I've added some links below, so these various pieces can be seen, but also one more pic of my vase for easy comparison :)
I know this isn't an exact science, but gut instinct says to me that the way the enamelling is done on the vase is Russian hence my persistance.
- the picture of the four cut glass vases is just there to demonstrate how many I've found that are similar in design and proportions to my vase (many many of them)
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/tmplobs/ZQRJFYYXWOJDV4N13.jpg
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2005/continental-furniture-n08109/lot.224.html
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2012/fine-european-furniture-n08879/lot.110.html
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-russian-red-and-gilt-decorated-black-smalt-5223947-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5223947&sid=27f2f407-86ff-4536-a8f1-f2adfebd1305
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/colored-glass-bratina-second-half-19th-century-4887122-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4887122&sid=64b761b2-117e-4146-bd89-760c12459b35
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-russian-ormolu-and-blue-opaline-glass-4941966-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4941966&sid=524d9d0c-1509-4869-81a9-1abef17e3379
and this lantern appears to also have that off white enamelling on it though it is a little difficult to be sure
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/furniture-lighting/a-russian-ormolu-mounted-white-painted-and-parcel-gil-circa-5019298-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5019298&sid=524d9d0c-1509-4869-81a9-1abef17e3379
-
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/fcgi-bin/db2www/fullSize.mac/fullSize?selLang=English&dlViewId=U%2B23C7TDW5LQJDUT32&size=big&selCateg=glassware&dlCategId=TB$V25CFC760EC0Q&comeFrom=quick
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/tmplobs/YN7NWRQLM_23WH5P2A6.jpg
Opaline vase in the Hermitage with off white enamelling
m
-
Similar salt...?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28849.msg156276.html#msg156276
-
Keith thank you :) I've come across a similar enamelled decor, attributed to Harrach iirc but also a vase on a good Antiques site, identified as Baccarat.
And then there's the becher shaped vase thingy I linked to above id'd as Russian on the Hermitage Museum website.
I'm trying to do some comparisons - may I ask a big favour? please can you upload some very clear pictures of the pontil mark on the base of your salt (is it very wide pontil mark?) and also a non fuzzy one of the enamel decor please? :-*
I felt on the basis of the pontil mark, that my salt was French. However, that's just a 'feeling' ;D The cut rim could also be Bohemian but the large pontil mark is not something I've ever seen on Bohemian glass (that means nothing of course, as it could be that I just haven't seen one lol). So for now, I'd like to try and compare all the enamelling like this that I can find to see what the differences and likenesses are.
Thanks so much!
m
-
Would do but I'm having a problem with the camera at the moment,will ask if one of the 'kids' can do me a photo or two, ;D ;D
-
These should be ok,have included an opaline 'carafe' as it has similar decor, ;D ;D
-
thanks so much :) - has the salt a large round polished pontil mark with a very fine stand rim around the outside rim edge of the base?
I've had a look at the carafe on the other thread as well - I'll post on there when I get a few mins.
m
-
Hadn't noticed before but yes,the pontil mark is very shallow,polished and with a narrow rim, ;D ;D
-
thanks - apart from the large polished pontil mark, the other two reasons I thought they were French was because of the opaline colour and also that Daum produced salts in this shape ... I thought the shape seemed to be a 'French' one.
However, I've found a shallow rectangular dish that has a similar cut rim that is id'd as Bohemian in one of my books. It's uncertain as to whether the blue is identical to that of my salt of course, because they aren't side by side, however it also has what looks like white or off white enamel with gilding over it ... not the same pattern as yours as far as I can see though also difficult to tell.
Your opaline carafe has a strange see through neck? is it cased ? or is it my eyesight. I think I've seen a similar pattern enamel vine leaves and grapes then gilded, on pieces of Harrach glass, but I don't think they were opaline. I think they were cased and maybe even cut to clear. I'll try and find a reference but I think they must have been in some museum photographs I found. I've not time at the mo, but I will research my books and links and come back if I find something.
The thot plickens.
m
-
The neck is a bit odd,to be honest it looks like the original was broken and replaced,you can just feel a 'cut' around the neck where the opaline ends and the clear part begins, ;D
-
oooh that's interesting! :) is it definitely glass at the 'replacement' bit? or could it be resin?
this is the blue opaline vase with the wavy cut rim identified as Baccarat. You can see that the enamelling pattern is different though. The gilded over enamel pattern looks quite 'neat'. Now I've been able to see yours and this Baccarat one a bit more clearly, I don't think the 'off white' enamel is the same type of stuff as that which has been used for the picture on my vase - 'think' is the operative word though as that is just judgement based on trying very hard to compare on photos.
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/images/Baccarat%20turquoise%20opaline%20glass%20vase.jpg
m
-
Had to go back and have another look at the vase,forgotten what it looked like ::),as you say the colours and design are different,the 'Baccarat' is a plain blue throughout your vase and my pieces have a 'cloudy' look to the glass,if you know what I mean.
The neck on the carafe is glass and despite maybe a replacement the gilding seems to match colourwise to the original so...?
-
Keith I've searched masses of opaline Bohemian glass and found many pieces with the type of decoration on, as is on your salt.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166363 one example
and just for you :)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166403
I also found two larger bowls in a similar shape in the Harrach book. It says not many pieces were made in that shape but also id's one as being used for bread.
I've also found opaline glass with a similar type line decoration to mine, one or two pieces.
I think both yours and mine are Bohemian. mmmm - interesting.
m
-
Those are very similar,thanks for looking,don't think mine had a lid,bit too small,I'll have to group all my opaline pieces together and photo them, ;D ;D
-
going back to my original vase :)
I believe this was produced by Richardson and quite possibly enamelled by Mr Giller!
Bear with me, I could be completely wrong on this but my instinct is this ;D
Explanation:
Decoration -
I've been wondering about the various decorations on Mel's vase(http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51033.msg289101.html#msg289101), which I believe is a vase by W.Thomas Webb(source Art Union Magazine 1847) and painted by Mr Giller. I also wondered about a vase that Art of Glass has on Flickr and has attributed also as a Webb vase painted by Mr Giller ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/art-of-glass/sets/72157627592071579/ ) . I do think that they both are from W. Thomas Webb and painted by Mr Giller, given the description and engraved pictures available from the Art- Union magazine June 1847.
So, looking as closely as I can at details on their vases and also on Keith's vase (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51033.0;attach=121081;image ) ( btw I also think Keith's vase is from Mr Giller and part of the W.Thomas Webb produced vases) and the way the black is put onto the vase particularly on the border decorations, as well as looking at the details of the vases in the Art-Union journal dated 1847, for a while I've been idly wondering whether my blue vase has been decorated by Mr Giller.
Some of the border decoration is remarkably similar to the depictions in the Art-Union magazine, and the way the black is put on the vase also seems very similar in close up comparing it to Mel's and Keith's and also Art of Glass' vase.
Shape -
The foot of my vase is quite similar to the foot of Art of Glass' vase. I've also pontificated previously in this thread about the similarities a Richardson vase has to mine in terms of cup shaped rim and the type of opaline. The ones I linked to before are here and the largest is 25cm and the medium 22cm in this group (mine is 29.5cm)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3331858&partId=1&searchText=Richardson+vase&page=1
Etruscan vases were around for a good 15 years in vogue as far as I can see from the Harrach book ( popularity possibly waned around 1862 ish?)and were clearly in vogue during the great Exhibition of 1851 from what has been written about them. That would be 4 years on from the depiction in the Art Union magazine, so shapes will have changed, developed etc. which I think could account for Mel's shaped vase and the Art of Glass vase, as well as Keith's vase not being depicted in the Art-Union article... and obviously they couldn't depict all the shapes I would think, although there are 8 versions in the article.
So I've been wondering, if the Art Union magazine says their shapes (1847) were produced by W. Thomas Webb, where Mr W.Thomas Webb was working in 1847 and about his link with Richardson's? And also the fact that they must have both been producing Etruscan vases at around that time, and in coloured opalines, as they were competing with the Bohemian manufacturers at that time in terms of coloured glass.
Link here which explains some of this background but doesn't say he was working under his own name at that point -
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/webb/
'In 1829, Thomas Webb I began his glass career working for the Richardson brothers as one of the partners in the business. He worked at the Wordsley Flint Glassworks until deciding to branch out on his own in 1836. To begin with he based himself, nearby at the White House Works before moving onto the Platts Glassworks in Amblecote. By 1951 they were producing both coloured and flint glass. Some of their products were exhibited at the Great Exhibition.
Thomas finally settled down at the Dennis Glassworks in Amblecote in 1855 where he opened the ‘Thomas Webb’s Glassworks’.'
so I am not sure where W.Thomas Webb would have been to have been classed in Art-Union magazine dated 1847 as ''the glass is made at Stourbridge by W.THOMAS WEBB, whose Works are fully descibred and illustrated in the'Art-Union' (April 1846)...'
And I came to the conclusion that it's a distinct possibility that my vase was produced either by W. Thomas Webb, or by Richardson (bearing in mind cup shape similarities to Richardson vases etc)
Eventually I came across this :o
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/acid-etched-vase
this vase is 30.5cm high and 13cm diameter
Mine has a slightly different shaped foot but is 29.5cm high and 13 cm diameter.
There are differences - I think the linked vase has a slightly longer neck. It also apparently has a rough pontil mark with iron left on it. Mine has an open applied foot pushed onto the bottom of the vase body shape and is beautifully finished with the foot rim and neck rim, seemingly very thick and fire polished. In the case of the foot rim, it's either been fire polished or so beautifully ground that there isn't a flat or bevelled edge to be seen.
quick link to mine for comparison
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132744;image
Here is another one at the CMOG, it says transfer printed decoration and it has a shiny opaline finish. It is the same shape as the one I just linked to above but dimensions are slightly different at 30.5cm high by 12.8cm diameter.
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/vase-762?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=score%20desc%2Cbs_has_image%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=2
I then also found this which is remarkably similar to Mel's in terms of shape and size
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/vase-1457?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=score%20desc%2Cbs_has_image%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=4
I'm wondering where W.Thomas Webb produced his vases for the Art-Union magazine and whether or not he and Richardson's were copying each other, with the Richardson's versions either also being decorated at Mr Giller's or copying his decorations in-house?
I think mine originated at Richardson's and was either decorated there or by Mr Giller. My feelings are that it was decorated by Mr Giller.
A very happy m :)
p.s. mind you, it's a bit worrying they have a vase/bowl that seems to me to be a piece of Loetz Octopus glass (3rd row down left hand side) assigned as Richardson :-\
http://www.cmog.org/collection/search?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson
-
Also of note:
Their shiny opaline versions (the one at CMOG and the three at the V&A) all have transfer printed decoration.
The one with enamelled decoration like mine is matt, as is mine presumably so the enamels would adhere?
And actually on my p.s. above, that bowl comes up under Richardson searches but in their description they do say firstly Richardson, then underneath Loetz, so I think that means it was previously ascribed to Richardson and has been subsequently changed to Loetz.
and also a correction
The second vase I linked to at CMOG is a 'similar' shape to the other Richardson vase in the CMOG but it isn't in fact the same shape completely. And they are different shapes or sizes to the Richardson vases I linked to in the V&A so, although they were mould blown, there is variation in shape and also in the type of foot on them. The rim is distinctive though.
m
-
No-one has mentioned Bacchus but I've no idea if they did blue vases,I've only seen 'white' in the books, ::) ;D ;D
-
no, I've checked out their shapes and decorations and found no matches... so far.
I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track with Richardson's and Giller for mine ;D I'm just wondering what time period.
For yours I think it's also a piece decorated by Giller and probably by W.Thomas Webb. The only thing that irks me, is yours has no foot of any kind, but there is one piece in the Art-Union journal which is a bowl called a finger glass and that has no foot either. I'ts a very simple straight low sided curved intowards the base, shape.
edited to add:
Meant to say though, Rice, Harris and Son of Islington Glassworks were producing variously coloured glass including opalines iirc but I've only managed to find 10 or so pieces by them in the Great Exhibition 1851 book and none seemed to be opaline and none in this shape. I would have thought that given Etruscan was the order of the day, and that the book gave over a double page spread just to them, they would have included some opaline or Etruscan in that, but there was none.
Richardson were fond of this shape
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/richardsons/
m
-
http://theantiquarian.us/Hist.%20Richardson%20Brothesr%20.htm
information here on Richardson.
One quote taken from the article
'The elimination of glass excise duty led to an immediate surge in new designs and colors being offered to the market. At the Manchester Exhibition, W.H., B. & J. Richardson exhibited their products including opaline glass, layered and painted work. It was also reported that Richardson was experimenting with new and improved colors:
“Richardson are directing considerable attention to the improvement of colored glass, in this are we yet lag behind our neighbors: chemistry has at present done little for it in this country; these gentlemen have, however, already made great advances in rivaling the production of Bohemia: and we have little doubt a few years hence, we shall see at least equal to the best of the imported articles, their specimens of opal glass are remarkably successful: and of cutting, engraving, and polishing, thy supply examples second to none that have every been produced in this country.” '
Information here on Thomas Webb:
http://theantiquarian.us/Hist.%20Thomas%20Webb%20and%20Successor%20Co.htm
And a quote from the article about Etruscan glass and opaline glass:
'In 1836, Thomas Webb also dissolved his partnership with his retired partner John Shepherd at White House, and in December of the same year, he resigned the Richardson & Webb Partnership at the Wordsley Flint Glassworks.
Webb continued to developed new products. In 1847, Webb was making opalescent glass decorated in an Etruscan style.'
Thinking about date for my vase, I wonder if in the late 1840's opaline glass was only being produced in white? In one of the Art Union journals of 1846 they were talking about seeing English ruby glass that matched any Bohemian glass. So perhaps if my vase is English it would be later. I need the CH book to look at the dates given for Rice, Harris and Son opaline as I do recall it said in there, they produced it in many colours.
Editing to add later:
I meant to say I came across something in the official catalogue of the Great Exhibition 1851. Under
Davis, Greathead and Green it said :
'Cut glass decanters, water jugs, goblets, ruby centres and stands, lustres with ruby and flint drops, cut and enamelled, coloured hock and other wine glasses, a great variety of ornamental vases, white, opal, frosted, Mazareen (sic) blue, and topaz; painted, enamelled, cut and engraved. '
This was the only special mention of blue under the makers I could find. I've looked up Mazarine blue and I don't think my vase really fits that colour. However my vase is a very intense glowing kind of blue, that I've been unable to match really. It is also strangely decorated and could be described as painted rather than enamelled perhaps? Hence my questioning Davis, Greathead and Green with Keith under another thread yesterday :)
m
m
-
3rd page from the end of this book shows glass from C. Bacchus and Sons Birmingham, described as '...blue flint glass, enamelled, cut, engraved and gilt..'
So yes, they did do blue glass. Unfortunately these pics and description don't match my vase :)
the book is
Victorian Glassworks: Glass Culture and the Imagination 1830-1880 by Isobel Armstrong.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EosjR1OlEecC&pg=PA392&dq=manchester+exhibition+rice+harris&hl=en&sa=X&ei=koR5UtCkKaOv7AbBl4DwBA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=manchester%20exhibition%20rice%20harris&f=false
And in the Official Catalogue of the Great Exhibition under Richardson it says
'...Opal, cornelian, chrysolite and Turkey glass ornamented in enamel colours...'
No idea what Turkey glass is though.
m
-
There are some interesting pictures in 'The Hallmarks of Antique Glass' by R.Wilkinson of these types of ware,although some mis-attributions,eg Kralik piece listed as Richardsons, ;D
-
In Miller's Glass Antiques Checklist - Mark West consultant
page 157
There are a pair of the vases I linked to in the Corning here (presumably one of them ended up at the Corning)
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/acid-etched-vase
It says they are decorated with brown and black enamels.
I am more than convinced my vase originated at Richardson's - call me stubborn ;D
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132744;image
Further down the page it says
'At the Great Exhibition, the British Factories showed a spectacular range of colours: Rice Harris of Birmingham, for example, included opal, alabaster, turquoise, amber, canary, topaz, chrsyoprase, pink, blue, light and dark ruby, black, brown, green and purple.'
m
-
with ref my the dates I mused on earlier in the thread:
'Etruscan vases were around for a good 15 years in vogue as far as I can see from the Harrach book ( popularity possibly waned around 1862 ish?)and were clearly in vogue during the great Exhibition of 1851 from what has been written about them. That would be 4 years on from the depiction in the Art Union magazine, ... '
It appears from reading, that 'Etruscan' glass items were alive and kicking at the 1862 Great London Exhibition and according to the Harrach book, they were at the height of production at Harrach in 1865. The Harrach book also mentions that transfer prints became more common in the 1860's and that the vases with medallion type portraits on them were being produced then.
So it seems, if the Richardson vase I linked to in the CMOG was originally produced in 1847, then 'Etruscan' style in glass was in for quite a long period but the type of production of it developed and changed in design over that period.
The book mentions the popularity of these products and says production was typified on white opal glass when referring to this 'later' period. When discussing the 'earlier' period and comparison to Giller's decorated vases, it talks about Harrach producing alabaster glass.
White opal glass is clearly white and 'alabaster' I believe refers to white as well. No mention of coloured background glass for the body.
My vase isn't transfer printed. It's enamelled with something.
With reference coloured opaline glass in the UK:
Richardson were producing yellow opaline in the 1830's according to Andrew Lineham's site where he has a rare pair of marked Richardson's yellow opaline decanters dated to the 1830's.
And they also produced green opaline - there is another piece on there dated 1855 that is green and white
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/British%20Glass.htm
As an aside (re Keith and Mel's vases)
The Harrach book does also mention the similarity of earlier products to those decorated by Mr Giller in terms of the black decoration on white glass and also the type of motifs used. There is a picture in there of two vases with a similar motif around the top to my vase, which again is remarkably similar to a motif used by Giller. They also featured the waves type motif that Giller used. All those motifs are motifs also seen on pottery and porcelain in Etruscan style though, however the two vases featured as patterns in the Harrach book do have remarkable similarities in design (but not shape) to those featured in the Art Union magazine from Mr Giller.
m
-
My CH British Glass 1800-1914 arrived this morning thank goodness :)
An interesting observation having looked through it and the Harrach book. Earlier in the thread I commented on my shape being 'Richardson'. CH comments regarding some J.G.Green engraved pieces featured at the Great Exhibition (engraving of the pieces is shown in the book page 135)
'The shape of the jugs in this group suggests they are from the Richardson factory'. Interesting because when I came across that engraving online I wondered about Green being as possible source for my piece because of those shapes.
Also, looking through the Harrach book page 189, the author comments on an engraved jug saying that engraved glass formed only a small part of the Harrach production in the 1860's, but comments citing three references to Richardson, Naylor and Co and Green pieces (all pieces I'd looked at and thought 'ooh maybe' for my vase), on the similarity of form to English glass of this period.
Taking into account Charles Hajdamach's comments, the comments in the Harrach book and my own instinctive observations, it seems Richardson did use a fairly 'distinctive' shape that is noticeable to the eye. I think my vase falls into that category :)
this is a link to a different piece of 'Etruscan' glass from Richardson, it has a clumpy foot and large knop on under the vase.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST125/
The only problem I'm having is finding any definite English/Richardson's blue opaline glass from this period :-\
m
-
Keith is there anything similar in the book you referred to above please?
I'm out of book money at the moment given my latest purchase, so would appreciate any help if it is in there?
thanks :)
m
-
Very little information apart from who made what,are you referring to the vase on the link above or in general?the pictures in the book are quite small,the vases are in red,white and gilt also a couple of monochrome transfer printed tumblers,could email you pictures if you'd like,can't promise how good they'd be, ::) ;D ;D
-
Thanks, no I was just referring in general to whether there were any piece in there that would be classed as 'Etruscan' glass c. this period.
An email would be great - red white and gilt sounds good. Are they different to the ones in CH British Glass 1800-1814 please?
m
-
Can't see any similar in CH 1800-1914 but certainly Etruscan,will get the camera out, ;D
-
thank you so much :)
m
-
Just to add,I've looked at all the links,pictures,googled and searched my books but have yet to find one of this type of vase with a picture on it, ::) I suppose someone will show me one now ! ::) ;D ;D
-
mm, I'm not getting very far with this :-\
I sent pics and a request to the Corning curator who was lovely and tried to be very helpful and sent lots of information back to me along with saying 'The vase may be by Richardson’s, but without a factory mark on the underside of the piece it is impossible to be certain.'
Unfortunately it was all information I'd already read or looked at, but they did suggest contacting Broadfield House as the Richardson Archives are there.
However on the Broadfield House museum website it says 'Please note that we are currently unable to offer a glass opinion service.'
Would anyone know if there is someone at Broadfield House who might be able to help with looking at the archive for me? I can give them the rd number from the Corning example and hope that mine dates to around that time which should make it quicker to look up I guess.
m
-
Know how you feel and now know why I've not heard from Broadfield House with my Royal Brierley question,why can't they just sign the pieces,grrrr, ::) ;D ;D ;D
-
yup - but if it had a factory mark on the underside then I'd know who made it and wouldn't need to contact anyone ::)
m
-
...and we wouldn't be here now on a forum that wouldn't probably be needed, :o ;D ;D
-
I would appreciate some honest opinions ;D on my most recent find and observations please?
I know I thought this must be Richardson's because of the shape and the thickness/type of opaline. However I've not been able to find a match to the colour or the decoration.
Ivo thought it might be French, but again, so far no match in any way.
So I came back round to maybe Russian. And tonight I happened upon this find.
This is a black opaline cache pot (that is how it is described) and plate that sold earlier via Christie's - Russian, dating to c.1800/1810(I think Christie's had it as c.1810 Bukowski's as c.1800)
I'm adding the pictures from the earlier Bukowski listing because they enlarge dramatically so the detail can be seen.
It is the first time I've found an Etruscan style piece at all, that has both the half hooped decoration and the consistent meander pattern geometric decoration on it in a similar style as mine, as well as having line drawing paintings of the people - hoorah!!
I can appreciate that whereas my vase is blue opaline, this piece is black opaline, and also that the painting on this one is onto gilding rather than on the clay coloured enamel mine is on, so it took a bit of imagination. But I think in spirit, and in style, this decoration is incredibly similar... isn't it? I think there are similarities also with the way the hair is done, the sinewy bodies, the chin outline and facial features in some parts?
please click on the picture in the link and it will enlarge and show the detail.
'A Russian gilt black Etruscan style glass cache-pot with stand, circa 1800.'[/i][/u]
https://www.bukowskis.com/auctions/559/1209-ytterfoder-med-fat-glas-ryssland-omkring-1800
I'll add some close ups of the people on my vase so you can compare more easily.
I have found one more that has the painted people on and similar geometric half oval border decoration
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-russian-red-and-gilt-decorated-black-smalt-5223947-details.aspx
Any thoughts and views very much appreciated :) and thank you for bearing with me.
m
-
am I out on a limb with this one then? ;D
Anyone know of any other vases with small neat handpainted outlined figures on that I can take a look at.
I did find one brightly painted beautiful Paris Porcelain vase with an Etruscan scene and pretty, neat, figures but not outlined only (yes, I've searched porcelain Etruscan from a variety of countries as well just in case :)
Or does anyone know if there is anything about this vase, shape, colour, glass, opaline etc, that might make it definitively NOT Russian?
I am not looking at Bohemian for the moment as I think that might be a last resort for various reasons (shape, finishing on edges, the type of opaline it is etc , can't absolutely explain why)
I have searched French til I'm blue in the face and not a single anything match to this at all, apart from finding a possible match in a jockey shaped hat etui being sold as French, in blue satin opaline that may or may not turn out to be a match. But absolutely nothing larger. The only link I'd thought of possibly being an attempt to match a Sevres blue porcelain colour perhaps?
The shape and type of opaline could indicate Richardson's, but no colour or decorative match at all so far and no match to anything else remotely English so far.
The colour is intense and slightly doesn't quite 'match ' to any thing else I can find - apart from possibly a large chandelier with a huge satin blue opaline bowl in the middle of it, that is being sold as Russian.
m
-
Back on track, I've revisited all my Richardson's references.
I don’t have a match to the decoration. I don’t have a match to the foot. However my guts are telling me this is a Richardson vase.
1) There are two marked ('Richardson's Vitrified') Richardson's Etruscan vases in Miller's Glass (Mark West Consultant). Page 157
a) firstly I said earlier in the thread that I presumed one had ended up at the Corning as the shape I linked to (see link below) and the design appeared identical -
Correction, the shape and design (compared to the pictorial design on the left hand one in the book) are identical, however the one in the Corning has the geometric design and the pictorial design all in black on a frosted white opaline vase. The one in Mark West's book is on white opaline body, however the geometric borders are in black, but the actual pictorial design is in brown (his descriptive colour).
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/acid-etched-vase
b) Both the vases pictured in the book have the black and brown design, however whilst both have matching geometric borders that also match the one in the Corning, it seems the actual pictorial design is possibly different on both (still Etruscan but not the same design on both vases). It's possible one is the reverse of the other, but using the Corning example as a guide because the picture matches the vase on the left in the book, the reverse of that design (seen in the Corning link) is not the same as the second vase pictured in the book.
c) The two vases in the book look to be identical in shape to the one in the Corning... well almost, but not absolutely exactly (although on casual glance they definitely look so). Presumably this is because whilst mold blown, the vases have all been finished by hand and so that will account for any slight variations?
The two vases pictured in the book have been photographed, neatly, exactly in profile against a black background. It may be an optical illusion but as far as I can see they are very slightly different shapes to each other from the neck to the cup. The one on the right has a slightly longer neck and more of an angle at the base of the cup and looks to be very, very slightly taller because of this. Likewise neither are absolutely identical to the one in the Corning which appears to have a longer neck and slightly narrower cup. Again, I presume this can be accounted for by hand finishing?
The body shape and cupped rim of mine is a match shape wise and proportionately, to the left one in the book. But my foot is different to all of them.
From what I can see, it appears the foot could be applied on the ones in the book (not part of the same mould as the body), however I cannot tell for fact and therefore I do not know whether it is hollow as mine is (domed and open to a rimmed base) or whether it is flat and closed with a pontil mark.
I should note that on page 159 he shows a Richardson’s Vitrified mark on a white base of a foot and the foot is closed and has a polished pontil mark. I don’t know whether that is the base of the one of the white Etruscan vases on page 158 or not, though it could well be. In which case I suppose it is possible that the feet are molded as part of the body of the vase.
To explain the difference in the foot I can't see any reason why Richardson would not have used different feet for their designs, rather than replicating them all exactly, so I can't see that as being an obstacle.
After all, the Richardson opaline vases in Etruscan design from the same period, in the British Museum, have the same cupped neck but are different shapes again -http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3331858&partId=1&searchText=Richardson+vase&page=1
In summary, looking again at the pictures in the book (which is where I first got the wake-up call), my vase matches the shape and size proportionately and at the neck/cup etc, as the left hand one in the book. There is no question in my mind that my vase has come from the same mould as these vases (but mine has a different applied foot).
2) My vase is hand decorated and isn't transfer printed.
Mark West says in his book on page 159 under the heading Vitrified Colours:
'Another famous Richardson patent was known as "Vitrified Colours". Items made using this technique were displayed at the Great Exhibition. The process involved transfer printing and firing a black or coloured pattern onto the glass body (usually opaque). Sometimes the enamels were hand-painted onto the body although this is less common .' (my underlining)
3) What about the colour of mine given all those I’ve found are white opaline (frosted or polished opaline)?
a) Returning to my post no44 above -
“And in the Official Catalogue of the Great Exhibition under Richardson it says
'...Opal, cornelian, chrysolite and Turkey glass ornamented in enamel colours...'
No idea what Turkey glass is though.”
From what I have managed to find, ‘Turkey’ was an old fashioned word for Turquoise, so it is possible this is what was meant by ‘Turkey glass’?
I wouldn’t however, say my vase was Turquoise. It’s an impossible colour to describe. The only thing I can tell for sure, is that under lighting photographed against a black background, it is a match on screen for a satin opaline French piece in a colour called ‘Bleu Drapeau’, which is a French opaline blue colour developed around the 1850’s according to Roland Dufrenne. I’ve no idea if in real life my vase looks the same colour as those pieces, but it certainly does when compared on screen. It’s not turquoise, not royal blue, not blue green, a sort of mix of them all. An Azure blue is the best I can come up with.
b( Charles Hajdamach in British Glass 1800 – 1914 page 106/107 repeats a description, from one of the Great Exhibition catalogues, of the Richardson’s glass display. In it there is much mention of ‘opal’ and ‘opal glass’ but unfortunately no definition of whether ‘opal’ means white, or whether it means opaline. However it does state ‘coloured’ and ‘frosted’ glass.
‘One of the many catalogues to the exhibition summarised their display: “Cut crystal glass; consisting of centre-dish …. A variety of articles in coloured, frosted, and painted glass. Opal vases, painted with enamel colours; subjects – Ulysses weeping at the song of Demodocus – Judgement of Paris – Diomed casting his spear at Mars – Dream of Penelope – Loch Oich – and from Aesop’s fables, the latter gilt; and various others.
Flower vases of gilt; ruby, black, and flint glass, cut and gilt; opal glass, painted – Pet Fawn – in enamel colours; opal glass, ornamented with enamel colours – Grecian figures.”
c( There are at least three examples of green opaline and yellow opaline produced by Richardson around this time so it’s clear they were producing coloured opalines.
- On page 104 of Charles Hajdamach’s book as above, there are two bottles, one yellow one green and they are dated to the 1840’s.
- It also states in the book ‘Before 1851 the firm used two marks … The other more common mark said ‘Richardson’s Vitrified’, often with the extra words ‘Enamel Colors’. The latter word usually spelled without the ‘u’’.
- And on page 447 the book says ‘The firm does not appear to have used a trademark in the second half of the nineteenth century’
- All of which should also put this green opaline vase – see link- in the pre 1851 time frame as it is marked Richardson’s Vitrified
http://www.portobelloglass.com/antique_glass_vases.html
Therefore I think it is fair to presume that it is possible they made my Azure blue opaline around this time, as well as the yellow and greens we know about.
-
To add to my post above -
This vase is a Richardson's opaline 'Etruscan' vase in the similar shape to mine and has a hollow trumpet foot
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH1339/
There is also a sugar bowl and lid in blue and white opaline with gilded lines on. It is listed as 'probably Richardson's' c.1850. It's not helpful because it only says 'probably Richardson's' but just to comment that the opaline on mine looks to be the same thickness as this and other opaline vases (identified) I've found by them. (see link to green jug and white jug below sugar bowl, as example of the type of thickness of mine).
Mine is superb quality, top quality, thick glass, with beautifully finished rims on both foot and rim.
And this shows they were making intensely coloured opaline glass around 1850.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST238/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST140/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST192/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST246/
Another feature I have noticed with many Richardson's vases is that their pictorial figure decorations often 'stand' on a 'ground' as mine do.
m
-
I've begged for some help and sent off all the information I can find along with some photographs ... and I'm hopeful that eventually this will be identified as Richardson's.
In the meantime, I've actually looked more carefully ::) :-[ at Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 and discovered on page 418 and 419 and 420 appendix 3, there is a list of articles exhibited by Richardson at Bingley Hall in 1849.
At the top of the list it says
'... All painted articles are done in Vitrified Enamel Colours'
It then goes on to list 141 items, some of which it notes as 'printed', many of which it notes as 'painted' - whooohooo :)
There are loads of 'Grecian' vases noted in varying forms and 'printed' or 'painted' depending on which item.
No 10 is the most exciting
'Vase, blue ground, painted, Atalante and Hippomede' - a blue ground vase and also classical in painted design!!
In addition to which there is no 15
'Portland Vase, painted, Fawn figures' - I've no idea what 'Fawn figures' means - does it mean painted in Fawn colour? they don't seem to refer to the colours black and blue for example, as Black or Blue with a capital. So I wonder what Fawn is? Just thinking about the 'fawn/ecru/buff' colour of my design.
and no 16
'Portland vase, blue ground and black shaded figures'
I can hardly contain my excitement ;D if mine turns out not to be Richardson's you will have to nurse me through my disappointment ;D
m
-
Isn't a fawn a goat like creature ? ??? ;D
-
yes, I thought like a bambi type thing, and that's probably what it means ... but you know I live in hope lol :) the smallest clue, just in case, is worth examining .
-
aha but.... on page 420 under no 93. it says
'Globe, two Grecian subjects in fawn shaded' !!! so, is it possible that they used the term Fawn for a bambi/goat thing fawn, or that it could also relate to fawn the colour.
I wonder.. darn, that's confusing.
They also appear to use the word 'frosted' if the ground has been frosted which they haven't done on the 'blue ground' vase mention.
There are two more blue ground mentions
108 and 109 both say 'Vase, blue ground and Grecian figure'
But they do mention
'113. Portland Cream, fawn figures' as well -
Sorry there are too many mentions of fawn here, for there not to have been some of it fawn enamels ... which mine is - ooo la la
m
-
Faun is the deer thingy,fawn the colour,must go back to school, ::) ;D ;D
-
no, it is Fawn - a young deer :)
and Fawn is also a colour
but Faun is a sort of mythical type goat thing - half human half goat I think
here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun
m
-
I've found it very interesting reading the exhibition comments in some of the journals for the Birmingham exhibition 1849, the Great Exhibition 1851 and the Paris Exhibition in 1855.
I've been looking for engravings of Richardson glass, because of the vase in this thread. But also trying to spot another vase, a cameo vase that Franz Zach engraved and which the V& A bought from the Paris exhibition. Mainly because in the case of my cameo vase (on another thread) I'd been very curious about the lack of comment generally, on the fact that Bohemian glassmakers were producing superb cameo glass in the 1850's.
This is just my 'general' feeling, but it seems the British 'arbitors' of taste who produced the articles on the exhibitions seemed to favour the 'transparency' of the crystal above all else. Therefore the articles concentrate mostly on cut and engraved crystal (singing the praises of the clarity of British crystal). They criticise the overuse of ormolu with glass, they refer, it seems fleetingly, to transparent colours if they've been engraved.
One piece (1847 Birmingham) acknowledged that, where Richardson's had applied an overlay of coloured glass in three 'medallion' type patches on a goblet, this was a new and exciting thing to do in overlaying coloured glass on white (clear), but then criticised where it had been applied on the goblet and said it would have looked better around the rim lol. They rarely talk about opaline colours or non-transparent colours and certainly didn't seem to like enamelled opaque or frosted glass - which in one piece I read, was said should be in a group with porcelain :)
I can't find a mention of the Franz Zach piece at all. What is more curious is that there is mention of a blue Baccarat acid etched cameo in the Paris Exhibition article I read, but it isn't described as cameo glass. Instead they have described the whole process of how it was made and whereby the blue and a half tint blue is achieved on the white (clear) glass body etc, in great detail. But nowhere a reference to the Franz Zach cameo in the V&A or anything like it from Bohemia.
I wonder if this is because they were so averse to coloured glass that the very fact someone had produced some new and very exciting and difficult work (Franz Zach 1855 - blue over clear and then cameo cut with the background all engraved behind the relief cameo - and it's not a small piece ) just completely passed them by.
I think it's also a possible reason why it's so hard to find any engravings of examples of English makers coloured glass of the time. I've found a few extra ones to the ones shown in CH British Glass 1800-1914 (mostly Bacchus and Rice Harris) and one that I think is Richardson enamelled Etruscan/Grecian, but I don't even think that is on coloured opaline or opaque glass, I think that one is clear glass with an engraving on.
Obviously this is just the 'general' feeling I get reading the articles :) but it's not a wonder it's so hard to find examples lol. Never mind try and match them to real pieces. Things just do not look the same in black and white however hard you try to imagine it.
m
-
This is a Richardson enamelled jug with waterlilies from around late 1840's. The picture blows up really well and it has the fawn/ecru flat enamelling on it (shaded overpainted with colours but there's a lot of it there).
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH168/
Note the staples all around the bottom of the jug :) still worth saving and worthy of display because of it's rarity.
In my reply #63 above I noted in the list of exhibits 1849 at Birmingham
'No 10 is the most exciting
'Vase, blue ground, painted, Atalante and Hippomede (sic)' - a blue ground vase and also classical in painted design!!'
Well, this is a link to a white opaline vase from Richardson at Broadfield House, in a similar shape to my blue one, and it has the transfer printed design of Atalante and Hippomene
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH1339/
m
-
Ok, this is my new working hypothesis ;D
Produced by Richardson decorated by J Northwood.
I've been searching engravings etc of horses (Etruscan/classical etc) on various vases but not a stitch where I've looked at the engraving or pattern and though, yep, that looks like mine.
Then today I happened upon page 181 in Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914.
The plate 160 shows 'Two templates used by the Northwood workshop about 1861-1862.Based on a photograph in John Northwood I by John Northwood II.'
Both designs are very similar to mine but particularly the design on the right. No other horse design I've looked at has the same proportions, the movement of these/mine, the 'fine'ness of the horses etc. All others have thick legs or fat hoofs and most are quite 'static' in their depiction.
These templates are incredibly rare as they were thrown away.
These two templates can be matched to a frieze engraved on a jug which was a Richardson blank - it's shown on page 161 and here it is in the Broadfield House collection.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST430/
The photography is rather unfortunate in that it's nearly impossible to see the engravings clearly. The templates are black on white background so much more easily comparable and I feel certain they are very close to my picture.
Hence new hypothesis of decoration by Northwood.
Very exciting find for me ;D
m
-
Sounds plausible M
-
ooh thanks - what do you think of the template please? Jim said 'what? doesn't look anything like your horse' sighhhh.
m
-
Have to agree that the template horse is very different...more of the classic roman horse in the template, but thats just me.
-
Ken, thanks for looking. I know what you and he both mean but it's very difficult matching templates to actuals.
This goblet engraving is possibly a good way of showing this better (than the Vase I linked to in the BH)
It's a goblet in the V&A and the reference for it is also given as page 181 British Glass (CH)
It does enlarge and is easily seen and compared. The rider has the hat on of the picture on the left in the book but the horse is not the same depiction as the template.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1192594/goblet-northwood-john/
I feel in my bones I'm closer than before ;D
m
-
I think the right-hand horse is very similar but we have to remember yours is enamelled not engraved or etched. I think the decorated by Northwood might be off though.
-
I don't wish to come off as a wet blanket, however (and my opinion only) the artistic design of the Northwood renditions (and the 2nd template states "probably decorated by John Northwood") is more along the lines of older artistic interpretations in the classic greek/roman styles & even though your vase has greek/roman figures the horse interpretation is more along the lines of modern classical, meaning the rendition actually looks like horse & not a caricature. Regardless you have a vase that is of outstanding quality & age.
-
The decorated by Northwood bit came about because he served his apprenticeship at Richardsons.
So that was my new connection once I'd found the templates :)
Ok, so let's forget that I thought Northwood had decorated it - let's just say I now think there is a link somewhere between his templates (used post 1861) and my vase (I think dates to c.1850 ish so a good bit earlier).
Ken I know exactly what you mean about the differences in how mine is depicted and how they are depicted in the engraving on the goblet. I was just trying to add an example on here so people could see what I was describing but I can't add a photo of the templates which would be much more helpful.
However, whilst the depiction of mine is different to the engraved version on the goblet depiction, I still think there is a marked similarity between my horse shape/movement and the template version (on the right.)
Somewhere I feel there is a link. ~Did the person who made those Northwood templates, also make the templates for the depiction on my vase?
Right, off to investigate a bit further. Thanks so much to you both for your input and thoughts - hugely appreciated as I need to be kept on track ;D
m
-
A Northwood claret glass engraved with a scene from the Parthenon Marbles, here in the Broadfield House collection. A different type of engraving from the previous links.
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST359/
and a decanter from the frieze here
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH797/
m
-
I've photographed the engraving on that goblet to compare to mine (I flipped my picture of the boy on the horse so it's facing the same way as the engraving). There is definitely a big similarity between the engraved figure and horse on the right of the picture on the goblet and my enamelled picture.
m
-
This is a John Northwood drawing of Perseus and Andromeda.
According to the book,
'Northwood's Portland Vase was not his first
cameo glass vessel. About 1856, he produced a
white-over-blue vase depicting Perseus and Andromeda.
Unfortunately, the vase was broken
and no longer exists, but the Rakow Library has
a pencil sketch of the design, which was once in
the collection of Kenneth Northwood, the artist's
grandson. '
Fig 14 page 19
http://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/DA/DAD1DEEE-4B86-491B-B804-69C7B1F46B40.pdf
Just for interest of comparison (bearing in mind comparing a drawing with an enamelled figure), I've turned my photo back round to the correct direction. I've also attached a cropped picture just showing the three figures to compare to the three figures composition in the sketch but I really needed a 'flatter' photograph of mine without the curve of the vase affecting the picture, but my battery has run out.
Source: English Cameo Glass in the Corning Museum of Glass, David Whitehouse,
Copyright © 1994
The Corning Museum of Glass
Corning, New York 14830-2253
On this link to the Corning information, it says in the description of the drawing that the Corning has a similar drawing with four figures. I was interested in the composition of the three figures, similar to mine.
m
-
Hi, I think that, when you compare your Vase to other glass with depictions of classical Greek scenes, you have to have in mind the Greek prototypes the makers of your piece used as a model. When I look at your Vase, the style reminds me clearly of late classical Greek red-figured vases of the 4th century BC, and I am quite sure that somewhere out there exists a vase with your scene on it, even though I could not find it during quick search I did. The other engraved examples you showed are related to high classical Greek art of the fifth century BC, and that explains also the difrerences ins style of the horses and the riders etc... By the way, most of the "Etruscan" vases that I have seen show motives from greek vases. The term "Etruscan" has to do with the fact that nearly all Greek vases known from the late 18th century on came from Etruscan tombs, and it took quite some time to understand that they actually were imports from Greece, from Athens, to be precise. However, what I try to say is that I think that the style on the "Etruscan" glass vases is related to what the prototype was in each case...
Mat
-
Mat, thanks so much for taking the time to reply :)
And to explain about the era's of the styles - likewise my misuse of the term Etruscan :-[
I knew about the vases originating in Greece having read up previously, however it's a term used in British Glass 1800-1914, and by using it I was hoping to convey easily the type of vase that was going to be seen on the thread :-[
( Likewise the use of the term Elgin Marbles which I hesitated to use as well and probably should have not)
Yes, after I had posted and done some renewed searching, it did occur to me that the scene is probably a 'copy' of another piece and therefore the composition has no relevance.
Am I at a dead end I wonder? my gut still says that I can find the enameller/templates and thereby perhaps be able to confirm the identity of the vase as Richardson (which I am 99.999% sure it is).
I also feel that it's possible that a series of these were made so I'm hoping to turn up a set of designs all relating to Hercules tasks.
I have learnt so much through researching this piece, and thank you again for your help.
m
-
Mat I posted a long post above but I think this might be an example
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/24.97.5
m
-
Flying free, I think I found the source for the scene of your depiction, I knew I had seen that again somewhere. It is a mix of two scenes taken from the plates of a late 18th century publication of greek vases by William Hamilton. The bearded guy is taken from this plate (and is therefore king Iobates from the Bellerophon myth, who plays otherwise no role in the Herakles-Hippolyta-episode) : http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0171?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0 . And the fighting scene is clearly this plate: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0182?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0 . Of course that does not help you identifying the maker, but at least you know now where he got inspired. :)
Mat
-
Ah, and yes, the vase you show is a good example of 4th century style, showing the youthful Herakles and not the bearded one I would expect in 5th century!
Mat
P.S: I personally have no prolem with the term "Elgin Marbles", I just hope some day the UK and Greece will find a formula to solve their problems with that theme and that populism regarding the marbles will stop on both sides... ;)
-
Mat thank you!!!!
A couple of strange things strike me
- there's a funny difference between the picture and the vase, the paw of the lion has swung round from being at Herakles side to covering his nether regions ;D - the Victorian need for modesty
and
- Why would King Iobates be depicted along with Herakles and Hyppolyta if there is normally no connection? it seems a bit strange.
And then a bit more strange when you see King Iobates with Bellerophon (on horseback) and the Chimera (lion) - I'm just wondering if someone got confused between the myths/template pictures and picked off the wrong templates :-X Or am I imagining things ::)
m
-
p.s. I have asked for a moderator amendment to reword to Parthenon Marbles.
-
To your first observation: ;D :-[
To the second one: Yes that is indeed strange. To know the answer one would have to know how educated the painter and also the buyers of these vases were. Did they know the myths of Herakles and Bellerophon so well that they would matter about it? If you assume that they did, then the bearded figure was likely chosen to represent king Eurystheus, the king that Herakles served and the one ho sent him to do all his 12 deeds. That would be ok, as the iconography of the figure is not specific to Iobates, but just that of a ruling person holding a sceptre. The other explanation would be that the painter used Hamilton's book just a a pattern book and chose figures he liked free of their meaning to compose a nice scene. Maybe the buyers were fine with having an "antique style" vase without bothering much if the scene shown makes sense or not? To check if that is the case, one would have to see other contemporary vases and to examine how conststent their depictions are as to their meaning. That would be quite an intersting task, I think!
-
Yes ... err I do own some other pieces ;D and need id's on two of them as well as this one ::)
The point about the bearded figure being chosen to represent King Eurystheus sounds the most plausible explanation actually. It assumes the final customer will not be able easily to find the Hamilton engravings anywhere to check, which is also quite plausible - although the vase will have been expensive in it's day, and therefore perhaps going to a comparatively widely read household? Nonetheless, I think that's the best explanation.
Now to find who was using the Hamilton engravings for references for their work.
I shall go and do some more digging and reading.
Thank you again.
m
-
PS: That's the way Eurystheus is normally shown on Greek vases (he is the guy hiding in the vessel). The painters didn't like him too much, it seems... ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#mediaviewer/File:Herakles_Eurystheus_boar_Louvre_F202.jpg
-
oh thanks - very curious to me.
I have much more to go on for searching now. You have really helped with a new angle.
Here are two links to the other pieces I own ::)
A gigantic vase:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54777.msg310421.html#msg310421
The people seem to be from the engravings as well although I've not checked closely through all of them yet.
A plate that I hope is Russian:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52048.msg295284.html#msg295284
m
-
Ivo, wracking my brains here, the new red piece you found in the UK? a bit gilded on top of cream enamel? can you post a close up of the enamel if you have time please?
Keith, you posted two pieces earlier in the thread. Do you think the enamelling on them is similar to that cream/biscuit used on my vase? I might have a possible lead or at least a piece in the puzzle maybe :) (ever hopeful here )
Thanks so much.
m
-
accidentally happened upon this on pinterest !
The description here on the museum listing does not say what it's made of.
On pinterest it mentions 'terracotta' made first half 19th century - so 1800-1850.
Curious colour and looks like it could be glass doesn't it? It does say the material is terracotta. I couldn't find any other terracotta Russian vases so far so was just wondering if something is lost in translation. It's very hard to tell from the photograph exactly what it is made from.
I think from what I can make out, that the researcher is Ivan Golsky at one of the museums (Siberia? maybe)
But it has remarkable similarities with the design of mine including the border decoration and rim decoration.
Think I might put this one to bed now? : Russian? probably? - first half 19th? probably?
http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4347526
this was the description on Pinterest
'ВАЗА Период создания: первая половина XIX в. Материал, техника: терракота, полихромная роспись Размер: в.78,0; д.37,5 см Место создания: — Номер в Госкаталоге: 4393009 Номер по ГИК (КП): 23213 Инвентарный номер: ПДМП 784-ке Местонахождение Федеральное государственное бюджетное учреждение культуры "Государственный музей-заповедник "Петергоф"More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style'
VASE created: the first half of the XIX century. Material: terracotta, polychrome painting Size: v.78,0; d.37,5 cm Place of origin: - in the State Catalogue number: 4393009 Number in GIK (KP): 23213 Inventory number: PDMP 784-ke location Federal State Institution of Culture "State Museum" Peterhof "More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style
Thoughts or differing views?
m
-
This is the pinterest link as the museum website link doesn't appear to be working now :-\
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/356206651758869196/
any thoughts very much appreciated - does it look as though it might be glass rather than terracotta? I was just wondering why the interior would show as bright imperial yellow as well if it was terracotta. On the other hand I was wondering how the handles would have been attached if it was glass. I have seen that they attached them by screwing them on, however these don't look as though they would have been able to do that?
m
-
The links are working.
I have now been through what appears to be the entire museum collection of vases (in various properties from 'glass to marble).
The glass pieces are varied and include some which are definitely Galle, Daum and Loetz.
On the museum site this yellow piece has no descriptor (in the same way, as far as I could see, that none of the vases do - they all appear to have a number, museum inventory number and that is it).
The only way they are grouped appears to be by shape (Category - Vase) and by property/material (so the glass vases are all together and come up first, then porcelain vases etc).
HOwever on the pinterest link to the yellow vase it is described in greater detail than just the inventory numbers and item numbers and as I said above is described as :
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/356206651758869196/
VASE created: the first half of the XIX century. Material: terracotta, polychrome painting Size: v.78,0; d.37,5 cm Place of origin: - in the State Catalogue number: 4393009 Number in GIK (KP): 23213 Inventory number: PDMP 784-ke location Federal State Institution of Culture "State Museum" Peterhof "More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style
This is the same for other Etruscan style pieces I found in the online museum collection both in glass and porcelain. i.e. on the Pinterest link I found , there are a few of the other items from the collection, not described in the collection but have been described in their listing on pinterest as Russian - Etruscan Style and then with further descriptions.
see link here where the large blue glass vase in the middle is on the museum website as is an Etruscan style white bowl with decoration
https://www.pinterest.com/igolskij/russia-etruscan-style/
and on the museum website here with no description:
http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4934619
The poster on pinterest is Ivan Golsky who I think is Dr. Ivan A. Golsky (Omsk, Russia),who appears in this link under one of the photos:
http://www.helenika.ru/index.php?page=photo-mus-2013-en
'Vinogradov Readings – 2013 in St. Petersburg . Мaster Class. November 11, 2013. Visit to the IPM‘s Art Workshop. Familiarization with the Collection of the Shapes. From left to right: Dr. Marina M. Fedorova (Jaroslavl, Russia), Dr. Ivan A. Golsky (Omsk, Russia), Dr. Wasilissa Pachomova-Goeres (Potsdam, Germany), Dr. O.A. Sosnina (Moscow, Russia) and Mrs. Josее Erica Huijzer (Wassenaar, Netherlands)'
I am therefore assuming that further id's have been done and the museum website not updated - and for now that the description of the yellow vase is at least correct - Russian, first half 19th century. I assume also that it is yellow (somehow glazed inside and out) terracotta as per the description.
m
-
Keith re your blue opaline bowl below (I have one as well but with plain gilded lines on it) this link show a red version in a similar size to mine and is attributed as c.1844 possibly Vienna and calls it as Sugar bowl. It has a silver lid and underplate as you can see. Very pretty with the silver bits as well. Their glass is chipped but still special enough to be in the museum collection.
http://gyujtemeny.imm.hu/web/kozep/56_479_1_FK_1576.jpg
IMM Hungary - museum glass collection
Also an example of blue opaline with the cream gilded enamelling:
dated c.1840- Bohemian
http://gyujtemeny.imm.hu/web/kozep/89_86_1_FK_1462.jpg
These should be ok,have included an opaline 'carafe' as it has similar decor, ;D ;D
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=136108;image
-
Just adding this here for my reference:
Bukowski's Russian glass jug - the blue appears to be a similar blue to mine, the thickness of the glass and finish at the rim also appears to be similar and the body of the jug has a similar shape to the body of the vase.
Might be nothing but might come in handy in future :)
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/559/1214-a-russian-turquoise-glass-ewer-with-stopper-19th-century
Also this vase - similar type of opaline glass again, the thickness of the glass and just something about it:
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/554/1173-a-russian-mid-19th-century-vase
And apologies - I know this thread is getting very lengthy - please just ignore ;D but if you come across an id please let me know :-*
m
-
A possible step forward ... maybe....
Checking Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 pp136,
there are two vases in the group said to be definitely English. One of them, the one in the centre, is by Bacchus.
The picture depicted on the Bacchus white opaline glass vase is this one, excluding the two figures on the left of which second from left is Iobates (man with beard). That Iobates picture is on my vase:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Outlines_from_the_figures_and_compositions_upon_the_Greek,_Roman,_and_Etruscan_vases_of_the_late_Sir_William_Hamilton;_with_engraved_borders_(1804)_(14593257849).jpg
So my vase has Iobates from that picture, on the left hand side on mine and then to the right of him this one:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Outlines_from_the_figures_and_compositions_upon_the_Greek,_Roman,_and_Etruscan_vases_of_the_late_Sir_William_Hamilton;_with_engraved_borders_(1804)_(14777534804).jpg
Of note: the link above shows Heracles lion paw carefully positioned to preserve dignity.
The plates dates to 1804 and are from the book
'Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek, Roman, and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton; with engraved borders by the late Mr Kirk
The link MatW gave me to the Heidelberg archive picture shows the lion paw in a different position :-X :
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0182?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0
In the Introduction in that book, a funny remark in this context
'The designs, here presented to the public, are the outlines drawn and engraved by that accurate artist, the late Mr Kirk, from the two works of the late Sir William Hamilton;'
So I wonder why the lion paw is in a different position?
The text that I believe appears in the book relevant to this plate says:
'4 PLATE XL. Hippolyta, queen of the Amazons, wore the girdle ofMars, as an emblem of the country she reigned over:Admeta, the daughter of Euristheus, became envious of thishonour, and wished to possess the girdle. In consequenceof this desire, Hercules received orders to procure it.This is the ninth of the labours, which this god under-took at the request of his brother. He immediately wentto the banks of the river Thermodoon, which the Amazonsinhabited. Juno, always at variance with, a'
It ran out at that point but I've found the book online and the text and there's not much more to report. The author doesn't know what the rays denote.
So, in summary, just getting my head straight, it looks like the depiction on my vase was taken from Mr Kirk's plates.
m
-
And I do apologise this thread is soooo long :-[
I had been vaguely thinking that it might be possible this vase was made a lot later - like 1930s or something.
But I have come across a Clichy bowl (dated 1846)and a candlestick (1850) in this blue, so that, along with the similarity in shape to the Richardson's vases, and the comments in the 1851 exhibition catalogue that British glass was seen in Turquoise and Mazareen blue ... and now it seems possible that the enamelled picture may have been taken from Mr Thomas Kirk's plates published in 1804, I'm back to thinking most likely mid 19th.
I will get to the bottom of this if it kills me ;D
m
-
Is it possible that the figure on the horse is Mithras? The hat looks similar and part of the myth was about him killing a bull. Just a thought.
-
Good suggestion and thank you.
The sun (and sun god) features very heavily in the Mithras history/legend/myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism
Which could explain the sun emblem on the vase.
And could explain why, in the book accompanying the plates, the author could not give a reason as to why the sun emblem was there when describing the myth of Herakles and Hyppolyte ( I didn't copy out all that was said in the book).
It may not explain why Iobates is in the picture on my vase as well though - or it might(perhaps it isn't Iobates?).
I will do some more research.
Thank you.
m
-
This is what Encyclopaedia Britannica says about Mithras mythology:
(WRITTEN BY: Reinhold Merkelbach
LAST UPDATED: 8-18-2016 See Article History)
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism
'MYTHOLOGY AND THEOLOGY
The creation of the world is the central episode of Mithraic mythology. According to the myths, the sun god sent his messenger, the raven, to Mithra and ordered him to sacrifice the bull. Mithra executed the order reluctantly; in many reliefs he is seen turning aside his face in sorrow. But at the very moment of the death of the bull, a great miracle happened. The white bull was metamorphosed into the moon; the cloak of Mithra was transformed into the vault of the sky, with the shining planets and fixed stars; from the tail of the bull and from his blood sprang the first ears of grain and the grape; and from the genitals of the animal ran the holy seed which was received by a mixing bowl. Every creature on earth was shaped with an admixture of the holy seed. One Mithraic hymn begins: “Thou hast redeemed us too by shedding the eternal blood.” The plants and the trees were created. Day and night began to alternate, the moon started her monthly cycle, the seasons took up their round dance through the year, and thus time was created. But, awakened by the sudden light, the creatures of the dark emerged from earth. A serpent licked the bull’s blood. A scorpion tried to suck the holy seed from the genitals. On the reliefs a lion often is also seen. With the bull’s death and the creation of the world, the struggle between good and evil began: thus is the condition of human life. The raven symbolizes air, the lion fire, the serpent earth, and the mixing bowl water. So the four elements (air, fire, earth, and water) came into being, and from them all things were created. After the sacrifice, Mithra and the sun god banqueted together, ate meat and bread, and drank wine. Then Mithra mounted the chariot of the sun god and drove with him across the ocean, through the air to the end of the world.
The myth was interpreted by the Roman Mithraists in terms of Platonic philosophy. The sacrifice took place in a cave, an image of the world, as in the simile of the cave in Plato’s Republic. Mithra himself was equated with the demiurge, or creator, of the Timaeus: he was called “demiurge and father of all things,” like the Platonic demiurge. The four elements, the mixing bowl, the creation of time, and the attack of the wicked animals upon the newborn creature are well-known features of the Timaeus. The Mithraic doctrine of the soul is intimately linked with the myth of creation and with Platonic philosophy. As in the Timaeus, the human soul came down from heaven. It crossed the seven spheres of the planets, taking on their vices (e.g., those of Mars and of Venus), and was finally caught within the body. The task of human life is to liberate one’s divine part (the soul) from the shackles of the body and to reascend through the seven spheres to the eternal, unchanging realm of the fixed stars. This ascent to the sky was prefigured by Mithra himself, when he left the earth in the chariot of the sun god.'
_______
This is an explanation of Demiurge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge
_______
a) So, is it possible that the figure on the left represents the Demiurge, the horse and rider Mithras, and the figure on the right perhaps represents the bull? The sun emblem incorporated because of the importance of the sun in the Mithras mythology/belief?
Therefore the whole depiction on my vase might reference/be depicting Mithras, rather than a task of Herakles?
The drawings on my vase, definitely appear to have been taken from Mr Thomas Kirk's engravings which date to c.1804 and were taken from Sir Williams Hamilton's drawings.
But they are taken from two separate drawings as I showed previous, with the figure on the left being taken from one, and the two figures on the right along with the sun depiction being taken from another drawing.
Perhaps the designer of the picture on my vase designed the picture to represent Mithras hence using two different drawings.
b) Or does it as previously discussed, represent one of Herakles tasks, showing Herakles, Hippolyta and Iobates ?
But that myth does not explain the reason or relevance of the sun depiction in either the plate or my vase.
The book with Mr Kirk's plates in it, has only some meandering thoughts as to why the sun might be on the plate and indeed one of the descriptive paragraphs of the plate starts 'This plate is supposed to represent Hyppolyta engaged with Hercules ...'
My underlining, and note it uses the phrase '...supposed to represent ...' rather than '...represents...'.
https://archive.org/stream/outlinesfromfig00hami/outlinesfromfig00hami#page/25/mode/1up
see pages 25 and 26
This the description of the plate of the Horse and rider and the man with weapon seen on my vase:
'Plate XL
Hipployta, queen of the Amazons, wore the girdle of Mars, as an emblem of the country she reigned over: Admeta , the daughter of Euristheus, became envious of this honour, and wished to possess the girdle. In consequence of this desire, Hercules received orders to procure it. This is the ninth of the labours, which this god undertook at the request of his brother. He immediately went to the banks of the river Thermodoon, which the Amazons inhabited. Juno, always at variance with, and hating Hercules, had recourse to her usual cunning, and caused the girdle, which he would have obtained as a gift, to become the cause of a most obstinate conflict between Hercules and the warlike Amazons.
This Plate is supposed to represent Hippolyta engaged with Hercules, in which combat, according to Apollodorus, the Amazonian queen lost her life. The meaning of the ray of sun over Hercules and the horse is uncertain: the Chaldeans called the planet Mars, Hercules: and there is also a constellation under the same name. It is probably one of these three things, that it is intended to denote.'[/b]
In my opinion it is not at all certain from the authors description in that book, that that plate definitely represents the myth of Hercules and Hippolyta's belt.
In my opinion it is possible that both the Plate 40 from the book, and the depiction on my vase (with an additional third figure to the two on the Plate from the book), could represent Mithras instead.
-
I've just been reading the introduction to the second edition volume of Mr Thomas Kirk's drawings and there is an interesting comment in there, which might pertain to the positioning of the lion's paw for decency in Mr Kirk's depiction, versus the Tieschbein published earlier drawings where modesty is not preserved:
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1814/0003?sid=0c1b8ea9f82da624692be4e0f7997e75
pp Introduction ii
'There was another object also, which Mr Kirk always kept in view, and that was, the rejection of all those designs from his collection, which tended in any degree to indelicate expression'.
So possibly Mr Kirk 're-designed' the depiction so he could include this in his collection and to preserve modesty.
The picture link I showed previously was published in 1804
This comment above is copied from the Introduction in this set appears to have been published in 1814 (second edition)
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1814/0001?sid=0c1b8ea9f82da624692be4e0f7997e75
-
1) Extremely interesting that I made the observation about the author saying T Kirk was accurate!
In this book Romantic Arts & Letters: British Print, Paint, Engraving, 1760--1830, Thora Brylowe 2009, see pages 56 and 57
where she comments on that very issue of his accuracy being cited by the author, and where Brylowe notes the fact that the borders on the Kirk designs do not correspond with those on the vases despite the author stating his apparent 'accuracy'. However she has not, as far as I can see, picked up on the 'lion's paw' being re-drawn in Kirk's engravings. But does go on to discuss potential inaccuracy and why in some detail.
At which point I should add, that Brylowe says that Kirk did re-engravings of engravings for that book - i.e. he didn't use the original vases to do his engravings but copied the previous engravings of the Hamilton designs.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u-KVauoJHlkC&pg=PA56&dq=kirk+outline+drawings&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiD9Mrm9N_RAhVRGsAKHTkKDTIQ6AEIMjAE#v=onepage&q=kirk%20outline%20drawings&f=false
So
2) As far as I can see the designer and enameller of my vase copied a T Kirk engraving for my vase.
Which must have meant the T. Kirk volume of designs were somewhere available for the enameller to copy. London? Birmingham?The enamelling has been fired on as far as I can see.
From what I read above, the Kirk volume of engravings was intended for public consumption and does not appear to have been overly highly priced. Brylowe goes on to discuss the Kirk engravings in depth and how they were used e.g. by Spode (example shown from 1806) for their pottery, and it makes fascinating reading.
3) This is a print of Sir William Hamilton and one of his vases along with his engraving Plates in the British Museum - with some explanation
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=324321001&objectId=1536765&partId=1
Reynold's painting the print was made from here
https://londongrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/diletantti-by-sir-joshua-reynolds.jpg
4) Published more recently than Brylowe's book is this below. What is interesting (having speed read it) to me is how expensive plates were to produce and how much access the public would have had to them - presumably more access to Kirk's than to the original Hamilton engravings for example.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oY4d8IILJpkC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=Kirk+outline+engravings+and+drawings&source=bl&ots=h81nOOyxFr&sig=bONZ3f9zwf5SbIPfrl6mMA3W_Vc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjry9br_t_RAhWJuBoKHQ_HBUIQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=Kirk%20outline%20engravings%20and%20drawings&f=false
Sciences of Antiquity: Romantic Antiquarianism, Natural History, and ...
By Noah Heringman
I'm basically trying to work out dating my vase and how the enameller would have had access to the Kirk engravings to copy them onto the vase.
-
Spode used T Kirk designs in 1806 according to the Brylowe book.
In 1806 Spode were also give the Royal seal of approval that year apparently
http://www.antique-porcelain-online.com/spode-history.html
"Potter and English Porcelain Manufacturer to his Royal Highness” was the appointment conferred on Spode II by the Prince of Wales after his visit of the factory in 1806.
This link is to a large set of the 1806 designs used (selling for $20000 yikes!)
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/ceramics/spode-greek-pattern-clobbered-large-dinner-set/id-f_3185882/
So it seems the Hamilton designs were used on Wedgwood (Wedgwood had links with Hamilton)from late 18th, and Spode used T Kirk's Outline drawings on theirs in 1806 ...
There was an 'Etruscan' revival interest around the 1851 Great Exhibition where many were on show according to what I've read in CH British Glass. So the small task left is to find out which glass maker was using the T Kirk Outline drawings for theirs ;D
Whilst from what I understand (and could be wrong) Kirk's volumes were supposed to make the engravings more accessible to a wider public, they don't seem to me to have been particularly 'mass produced' as it were/as we would understand it.
http://collections.soane.org/b10643
So for example what appears to have been a second hand set was available here in 1835 for 15shillings having originally sold at £2,2shillings (I think - I don't understand old money or legends) Is that something like £400 value now?
NO 543. in this link the 'Gentleman's Magazine or Monthly Intelligencer Volume 40'
This was a G. Cumberland's copy with '... his MS. observations in pencil'.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mPhfAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA17&lpg=RA1-PA17&dq=t+kirk+outlines+from+figures&source=bl&ots=zs3jemLWLJ&sig=WoFPnaOheH0r-whtqcQrG-McoBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK6afOi-DRAhXKSRoKHVVaAsgQ6AEIRTAL#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20outlines%20from%20figures&f=false
and a book with 62 plates in was available here in 1841 for £2,5shillings
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2V9WAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=t+kirk+outlines+from+figures&source=bl&ots=8BAUUa0JaS&sig=hvHQ9SgesiaqdgaTUC_9ijfFOr0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK6afOi-DRAhXKSRoKHVVaAsgQ6AEITzAO#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20outlines%20from%20figures&f=false
-
gulp! the 1804 volume is currently available for £3886
http://www.alibris.com/Outlines-from-the-Figures-and-Compositions-Upon-the-Greek-Roman-and-Etruscan-Vases-of-the-Late-Sir-William-Hamilton-With-Engraved-Borders-Primary-Source-Edition-Thomas-Kirk/book/12744319
m
-
The border around the rim of my vase appears to have been copied from plate 27 of Kirk's Outlines from the Figures
this link to the 1814 edition
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Atna1x1ss3wC&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=william+hamilton+engravings+Kirk%27s+outlines&source=bl&ots=ok8uNEruZ4&sig=rjdFttXiIZ3u2aCc7MrZW6_p_aI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM19as0-LRAhWZF8AKHQiTAb4Q6AEIVTAM#v=onepage&q&f=false
With regards as to whether this represent the myth of Mithra or Hippolyta's belt and Herakles labours, I though the above quote was a bit strange and have found the full quote in the second edition and included the 'third' thing which is about the illustrious birth of the hero, so it should have read:
'This Plate is supposed to represent Hippolyta engaged with Hercules, in which combat, according to Apollodorus, the Amazonian queen lost her life. The meaning of the ray of sun over Hercules and the horse is uncertain: It may denote the illustrious birth of the hero: the Chaldeans called the planet Mars, Hercules: and there is also a constellation under the same name. It is probably one of these three things, that it is intended to denote.'[/b]
-
A possible inspiration for the stunning blue of my vase?
Thomas Hope bought a collection of vases in the late 18th from Sir William Hamilton.
He designed rooms to house the vases in Duchess street.
He designed another room in that house called the Aurora Room.
This is the room - recreated by the V&A - it shows a stunning blue ceiling
http://patrickbaty.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Aurora-join.jpg
link here to more explanation of Hope's interior career
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/thomas-hope/
Equally, Spode produced a set of china using the Kirk designs, called Greek which is on a bright blue background.
Iirc I think I read that T Copeland (who took over Spode) exhibited at the Great Exhibition in 1851 and appears to have exhibited some cut glass as well. Obviously cut glass is not blue opaline glass, but just curious that a pottery would be exhibiting glass.
I am no closer to knowing who made my vase or why it is the colour it is when no others I can find are in this colour.
So I'm just adding information here just in case it becomes part of the story :)
-
I'm discounting for now, Spode as the source of the design for my vase.
Thora Brylowe commented in her book on the almost cartoonish interpretation on the Spode pottery, which were taken from Kirk's 1804 edition:
see page 60
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u-KVauoJHlkC&pg=PA27&dq=thora+brylowe+hamilton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi24uTw_-LRAhXkCcAKHaZZBRkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=spode&f=false
I've found one Spode plate in brown pearlware on Pinterest.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/92/b6/03/92b603d75d5a105b3cf97c01e65bb708.jpg
It has the 'Hippolyte and Herakles' design on it but no 'Iobates', and I have to agree with Brylowe, it's a pretty odd interpretation of the Kirk engraving. The design on my vase is much closer to the original Kirk engraving, so I don't think Spode were the inspiration for it.
m
-
This is the Bacchus vase I was referring to with part of the Kirk's design on it which is in CH British Glass 1800-1914
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6250/vase-george-bacchus-and/
it has been transferred printed on but it looks remarkably similar to Kirk's outline design.
Mine is enamelled not transfer printed.
m
-
Here is a link to the Hippolyta and Hercules Kirk Plate (1804) used for the Spode pottery -
I think from what I've read, that this was used in 1806 by Spode.
They show a blue version here, the one I showed above was in brown.
http://spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/heracles-fighting-hippolyta
'Pattern Category: Greek
Biblographic References:
Kirk, Engraver. Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek Roman and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton. William Miller, London, 1804.
Description:
Kirk, P.40
This was the only source that Spode used for Heracles Fighting Hippolyta.
Below is the blue printed example.'
There are three figures on my vase - because of this, I am not convinced the artist (of my vase) was depicting Herakles and Hippolyta.
The myth of Mithra is often depicted with three figures.
It might be that the artist of my vase used Kirk's Outline for reference but was actually depicting the story of Mithra.
m
-
In the catalogue of the Great Exhibition
page 197 Under Austria
no 584 - it says Count Buquoy exhibited 'Etrurian Vases'.
-
In reply #63
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53085.msg314983.html#msg314983
I mentioned a blue ground vase with Grecian figures exhibited by Richardson at the Birmingham exhibition.
Well I've found one ... or rather not a vase but a blue ground piece and it's enamelled on and nothing like my vase, neither are the figures.
-
This is what I believe is a 'blue ground' piece of Richardson Glass (I think W.H, B., and J. Richardson piece). So not blue glass as my vase is.
It is marked on the base in black 'Richardson Vitrified' and is possibly what is described in the Birmingham Exhibition catalogue list as 'blue ground'.
There are a number of pieces in there described as having Grecian figures.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EARLY-VICTORIAN-RICHARDSON-039-S-VITRIFIED-ENAMEL-SCENT-BOTTLE-circa-1850-/201796956281?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=gT284lW%252BkkjOn4nPGPP2Zj7PqZU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Didn't buy as not coloured glass but it's pretty.
m
-
Earlier on I think (can't be bothered to re-read the whole thread :o )
I mentioned the use of 'Mazareen blue' in the Offical Catalogue of the Great Exhibition of Industry of All Nations 1851.
I have just revisited the catalogue and the listing is:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8FdS4CscCG8C&pg=PA124&dq=mellish+silvered+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigyInH6fnWAhXEL8AKHbFVDCQQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=Glass%20globes&f=false
On page 124, Under catagory Class 24 Glass:
'19. Davis, Greathead and Green, Stourbridge, Manu.- Cut glass decanters, water jugs and goblets, ruby centres and stands, lustres, with ruby and flint drops, cut and enamelled; coloured hock, and other wine-glasses. A great variety of ornamental vases; white, opal, frosted, Mazareen blue, and topaz; painted, enamelled, cut, and engraved.'
Mazareen blue is described in this book:
Indigo in the Arab World (Jenny Balfour-Paul, First published in 1997 Routledge)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=51QWcY07KXwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=what+is+Mazareen+blue&source=bl&ots=q_Tc-hncls&sig=IaHuUECw4dNo5xDImzSWhQ2om9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk-KOD7vnWAhWmL8AKHVh2D90Q6AEIODAG#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20Mazareen%20blue&f=false
Chapter 7 pp 117
'Eighteenth Century European dyers classified indigo colours into thirteen separate shades, beginning with the lightest:
"milk-blue, pearl-blue, pale-blue, flat-blue, middling-blue, sky-blue, queen's-blue, turkish-blue, watchet-blue, garter-blue, mazareen-blue, deep-blue, and very deep or navy-blue' (or 'infernal blue').'
My vase could definitely be classified as 'mazareen blue'.
Since Davis, Greathead and Green showed 'A great variety of ornamental vases; white, opal, frosted, Mazareen blue, and topaz; painted, enamelled, cut, and engraved.', I think they have to be a serious contender for my vase.
The shape is almost identical apart from the foot shape, to a shape from Richardson's (in the Corning - size and shape compared).
See also CH British Glass 1800-1914 pp 136 for a Richardson Etruscan vase in the same body shape but with a different foot (also 'chunky' shaped). So the shape seems correct for the period 1851 as well. The decoration design is Etruscan, also quite right for the period.
The making of it is very high quality, heavy, thick glass beautifully finished.
m
-
I cannot find my source right now but I read last night that Thomas Hawkes of Dudley (in the 1840s iirc) produced 'Turquoy gilded glass' and produced an important dessert service of this turquoy gilded glass.
So another possible candidate.
p.s. it's going to be embarrassing if I find out this was made in 1920 ;D however, the enamelling, the shape match to a Richardson vase of the late 1840s/early 1850 and the 'unique' colour of the vase still makes me think this is the right period for it.
Edited to add:
I have found a piece that I think could be the piece I found described as Turquoy glass. I may have misunderstood 'Turquoy opal glass' as being for turquoise opaline glass - the piece I have found (is linked to the Corporation of London service, which is what I read associated with the Turquoy opal glass), and could be a purperpine (or reddish purply) opaline glass,but might have just been enamelled that colour on clear glass - it's difficult to tell.
So perhaps 'Turquoy' meant 'Turkish'?
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4967/plate-thomas-hawkes-co/
so Hawkes MIGHT be off the list.
-
Update 1:
I have found a Richardson white opaline vase for sale.
It has clear pictures. The foot appears to me to be flat and seller says it is flat i.e part of the vase body so I think the whole thing is hollow to the bottom, and with a large polished pontil mark on the base. That is different to the foot on mine which is open and applied separately to the base of the body of the vase, so mine has no pontil mark. Mine has an open foot rim,much like a rim on the top of the vase and is beautifully, immaculately finished as is the top rim.
The one I've found is stamped Richardson's Stourbridge in a circle in enamel colour tan.
It has a stamped P in the middle of the circular Richardson's Stourbridge stamp and in the same enamel colour and then has a small number 4 separately enamelled in a different colour underneath the Stourbridge which forms the bottom of the circle stamp. It also has a number 324 enamelled in the middle of the circular mark underneath the P, done again in the same different enamel as the small number 4. i.e. those numbers seem to have been added later.
https://antiquesatlas.com/antique/19th_c_richardson_greek_soldier_glass_vase_c1870/as864a061
Update 2:
In 1846 a Clichy bowl on stemmed foot was given to the Sevres Manufactory ' coupe baguier a jambe balustre en opaline de verre bleu, par MM. Maes et Clemandot' by MM. Maes et Clemandot (see La Cristallerie de Clichy pp 256). I am pretty convinced a) it is the same colour as my vase and b) it is the same type, thickness,heft etc as my vase. (Ivo will be pleased as I think it was he who first suggested French :) )
Now I need to track the drawings and decoration to see if it could link to Clichy somehow.
Just for reference:
This is Mr Kirk's drawing of Herakles fighting Hippolyta as referenced on the Spode site,as it was used for a Spode plate centre design introduced in 1806.
http://spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/heracles-fighting-hippolyta
-
according to this listing the vase was produced by Bercy c.1820
http://www.seblantic.com/up/Opalines/@@sites@2@Product_xx_idProduct--21834__lang--en@@.htm
Shape has good similarities. Also putting them side by side it is a very good match for colour.
Bercy were producing coloured opaline glass at this time (Darnis L, Baguiers et Verres a Boire ) including various deep dark blues. So were Montcenis.
In terms of the fact it is matt (acid etched matt?) Rice Harris Birmingham were producing acid etched glass in 1840 (see page 277 of link)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k3YqAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=rice+harris+glass+birmingham&source=bl&ots=qluqf8y_C-&sig=lJqIwORc7dKnYzp67NZaVp9QA_Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv77CMi6bXAhUHIewKHXwoAA04ChDoAQg3MAQ#v=onepage&q=rice%20harris%20glass%20birmingham&f=false
This article from 1850 discusses Rice Harris and their 'ruby and other coloured glass'
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts-idx?type=turn&entity=DLDecArts.JournDesv02.p0033&id=DLDecArts.JournDesv02&isize=M
see page 15 - where it also says Rice Harris employs 500 men (and I read somewhere that Rice Harris employed french glassmakers - just for reference. Cannot remember during what period though)
-
ref part of my post above:
'according to this listing the vase was produced by Bercy c.1820
http://www.seblantic.com/up/Opalines/@@sites@2@Product_xx_idProduct--21834__lang--en@@.htm'
This vase was produced according to the listing, by Bercy c.1820s.
From reading this information below, it seems that Baccarat may have had access to that blue colour maybe?
'Despite some successes including the yellow and turquoise opal crystal, le Creusot fell into financial difficulties and in 1832. Baccarat and St. Louis came together, bought the factory and switch off the ovens.Two other factories were founded under the Restauration: Choisy-le-Roi in 1821 and Bercy in 1827. In 1832, a commercial agreement between Baccarat and St. Louis was extended to the manufactures of Choisy-le-Roi and Bercy, which had shown their qualities thanks to an excellent production.
Bibliography: Vincendeau, Christine, Les Opalines, Les Editions de l'Amateur, 1998, pp. 79-146'
The colour and quality of the opaline might indicate France then.
The style of the vase isn't the same as the one made in the 1820s because of the applied open foot.
The questions that arise at the moment are:
a) the picture comes from the Kirk engravings, which date earlier than that
b) the type of enamelling and decoration used, which seems to me to not be as sophisticated as it might have been had it been 1840s France maybe? e.g. Desvignes had been enamelling opaline glass in France using gilding and colours during the 1820s.
However, this biscuit type enamelling may have been similar to that used on Bohemian glass in the 1820s (Egermann),
and it does look similar to some enamelling found on Richardson pieces (ref earlier in thread), and the black outlines were found on Webb pieces of the 1840s/1850s.
c) the matt surface could date to an earlier period as Bohemian glass produced in the 1820s seemed to have a matt surface
for reference see:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5746392_288-vase-bohemia-kreibitz-glass-antique-vintage-old#&gid=1&pid=1
d) the style of the vase with the large knop and applied open foot. However if you look at the Kreibitz vase above produced in the 1820s it also has that 'clunky' knop. I am not sure how the foot was applied on that vase though.
So it might be possible that the vase was produced earlier than 1840s. The opaline, the colour, the matt surface, the large knop, the design from Kirk's books and the type of enamelling might all fall into an earlier period.
The quality is excellent. I think if it did come from an earlier period it could be French.
However I've not seen anything with this Meander design or Etruscan type design on French glass from that period so far.
It was bought from a dealer in Lancashire in the UK. In this day and age that probably has no bearing however worth mentioning.
m
-
1) Re the William Hamilton book of paintings of his collection of vases ( from which T Kirk's engravings were made), from what I can make out it was published in 1766 in French:
https://archive.org/details/collectionofetru02hami
'Collection of Etruscan, Greek and Roman antiquities from the cabinet of the Honourable William Hamilton
by Hamilton, William, Sir, 1730-1803; Hancarville, Pierre d', 1719-1805
Publication date 1766'
The paintings are presumably as they appeared on the vases as they are quite explicit (not 'cleaned up' as they seem to be in Mr Kirk's engravings). The pictures on page 280,287 and 425 appear to have similarities with those on my vase in terms of character depicted but it is obvious that the picture on the vase comes from Kirk's designs (1804).
2) In 1814 a second edition of Kirk's engravings was published:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Atna1x1ss3wC&pg=PR2&dq=t+kirk+engravings+william+hamilton+france&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-j7HIuZDcAhWGT8AKHWPiABEQ6AEISTAG#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20engravings%20william%20hamilton%20france&f=false
In the introduction page ii it mentions
'There has also lately been published in Paris a most beautiful and magnificent work, entitled, "Peintures de Vases Antiques." The drawings and engravings of which are admirably executed by M.Clener, and accompanied by an elaborate introduction, and a description of the subjects, by M.Millin*. It is in two volumes, folio, and perhaps the best work upon the subject ever published.'
I guess this is that book - published 1808
https://arachne.uni-koeln.de/arachne/index.php?view%5blayout%5d=buch_item&search%5bconstraints%5d%5bbuch%5d%5balias%5d=Millin1808Vol1&search%5bmatch%5d=exact
Some plates from the book here -
http://library.princeton.edu/news/2014-07-15/two-early-french-publications-%E2%80%9Cetruscan%E2%80%9D-vases
m
-
1)Possibly then, potential dates of interest for the vase shape and design of enamelling:
1804 - Kirk's drawings published - from which it looks as though the depiction on the vase was taken.
Spode appear to have used some of these depictions in the early 1800s.
1808 - Paris publication Peintures de Vases Antiques
1814 - second edition of Kirk's engravings
Late 1840s to early 1850s - interest in 'Etruscan' style seen on pieces at Great Exhibition
1917 - International fanfare made by Christie's when they sold the Hope collection. Hope had bought the Hamilton collection in 1801 as an entire collection. This was sold by a family member in 1917 with much publicity.
http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/100-years-later-the-hope-collection-from-london-to-los-angeles/
Thomas Hope created special rooms to display his art collection in Duchess Street.
Taken from his drawings in "Household Furniture and Interior Decoration" by Thomas Hope, the V&A (I think) have recreated the Aurora room:
it's the last picture on this link - see the blue ceiling and what appears to be buff coloured designs around the ceiling. Interesting combination of colours when compared to the vase.
The blog link given above makes some further references to dates:
'Setting a new standard of access, Thomas Hope opened his home to the public. The architect and collector Sir John Soane visited Duchess Street in 1802, just as he was preparing designs for the display of his own eclectic collection (Soane’s London residence, now a charming museum, is definitely worth a visit). Hope continued to collect and eventually transferred many of his ancient sculptures to his country residence, Deepdene, about thirty miles south of London. When Thomas Hope died in 1831, he left his entire estate to his eldest son Henry. Although greatly interested in his father’s collection, Henry was heavy-handed in reorganizing its display. The biggest blow to the elder Hope’s legacy came in 1849 when Henry, eager to finance the construction of his own townhouse, sold Duchess Street, which was quickly demolished. The art collection was transferred to Deepdene, where it remained for over fifty years.'
2)These are the Spode references online. They took their designs from three sources:
quote
'Greek Pattern Source
The designers and engravers at Spode relied on illustrations from three separate publications for inspiration to develop their Greek series. These publications endeavored to record and make available to the public Sir William Hamilton's invaluable collection of Greek, Roman and Etruscan vases. Selected designs on these ancient vases were used to create the center designs for the series. Exhibited here are prints from all three publications: The complete Collection of Antiquities from the cabinet of Sir William Hamiltonby D'HANCARVILLE, published in four volumes 1767-1776; Collection of Engravings from Ancient Vases of Greek Workmanship Discovered in Sepulchres in The Kingdom of The Two Sicilies now in the Possession of Sir William Hamilton, by Wilhelm TISCHBEIN, published in three volumes starting in 1791; Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek Roman and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton, engraved by KIRK and published in 1804. '
http://www.spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/source-prints/greek-pattern-source
m
-
I've come across some interesting information regarding the pale biscuity beige yellow enamelling on the vase.
In the book Baguiers et Verres a Boire du XIXeme siecle, Darnis (ISBN 979-10-90849-12-9)
on page 16 and page 63 he shows some enamelled pieces from Montcenis dating to 1820-1830 (no's 16 and 63).
Both appear to have some decoration using this odd enamel, 16- foxes and 63-Napoleon's horse and the coloured 'ground' the horse is standing on.
I think, from trying to translate the information, that on page 14 it says this curious yellow colour was obtained by high heating when applying the enamel. There appears to be some reference to it being from Desvignes (enamel decorators as far as I recall).
The thing is, I am really not sure my vase is French. The style of foot makes me think more Bohemian than French.
However that is the first time I've seen what appears to be that coloured enamel and a discussion about it.
Difficult ::)
-
mm,something similar to the piece no 16 in the book is here in the MAD. You can click and enlarge the picture but not good enough to see whether the fox is indeed in 'biscuit' yellow enamel or gilding - maybe the book meant the yellow of the gilding? That said both pieces do looks as though those pictures are matt enamel.
Wish my French was anywhere good enough to understand ::) :
https://madparis.fr/IMG/jpg/arton763.jpg
-
correction I think I've now managed to understand and translate that information more accurately. It's not to do with the biscuity beige enamel (which is seen on both those pieces as far as I can make out).
The information about the yellow is about a slight shadow around the enamel decoration that is caused by the high heating when it was applied. So not specifically to do with the biscuit beige enamel.
However ... that biscuit beige enamel is the first I've seen outside of my vase.
The pieces date to c.1820-1830 and are from Montcenis.
They were making beautiful blue opaline glass around that period.
I'm just not entirely sure that the foot of my vase fits with a 'typical' French type of design for a footed piece. That's what is putting me off.
m
-
18th century Russian - with what appears to be similar biscuity enamel.
The pictures are also Greek however they are not from Kirk's engravings as they were done in 1804 iirc.
http://www.nasledie-rus.ru/podshivka/pics/9818-pictures.php?picture=981801
I still keep coming back to this yellow vase from a Russian museum collection, says it is terracotta but I'm mystified as to how it might be yellow interior glaze on the terracotta body, so am still pondering if it is yellow glass:
http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4347526
-
Interesting -attributed to Kaiserliche Glasmanufaktur St. Petersburg (Imperial Glass manufactory )
Very similar blue opaline colour and looks to be similar in heft, also appears to have teeny bubbles judging by the base picture:
http://antikes-glas.de/en/glashuette-petersburg/blue-alabaster-glass-vase-stpetersburg-1850-p-425.html?language=en
https://antikes-glas.de/ebay/b223f.jpg
-
Can't remember if I mentioned Friedrich Egermann, but 'twas he who introduced biscuit (matt) enamels on glass in Bohemia: Source for this link information - Mgr. Eliška Vavříčková,Glass museum Nový Bor
http://www.glassmuseum.eu/dokumenty-muzea/exponat-roku-2017
in 1824 - see the large matt blue glass vase for one of the only two (if my memory serves me right) examples I've ever been able to find:
http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/historie/index.php?pg=clskloe
However, I cannot find anything similar to my vase.
-
good close ups of a Russian etruscan black smalt glass vase with hand painted figures on a matt enamel surface:
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-russian-red-and-gilt-decorated-black-smalt-5223947-details.aspx
A RUSSIAN RED AND GILT-DECORATED BLACK SMALT GLASS VASE
CIRCA 1810, THE IMPERIAL GLASS FACTORY, ST. PETERSBURG, PROBABLY AFTER A DESIGN BY JEAN THOMAS DE THOMON
I'm going to have a quick check through Kirk's drawings to see if there is anything similar.
Also to see if there is any evidence online of the Imperial factory using Kirk drawings.
-
oh look here - very interesting horses - look like my horse - they look to me like they are copied from the same source or... done by the same person?
http://kbcs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Miklashevsky_Etruscan_Vase_9-300x400.jpg
http://kbcs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Miklashevsky_Etruscan_Vase_9-300x400.jpg
http://kbcs.ca/?p=2291
-
Stylistically, I can see similarities, however the mane on yours has distinctive "sections" whereas the other one is drawn in one section. Also the eye on yours is more simply drawn. I would be more inclined to think shared source.
-
Yes I agree now. There are other subtle difference in the nostrils and also the way the eyes are coloured for effect v how Herakles eyes are drawn.
So ... Spode used Kirk's engravings for the 'Greek' plate I showed which has most of the composition seen on my vase. Spode also used Kirk's engravings for the figure on the left of my plate taken from a different engraving composition
Here is the Spode design for the main part of the picture on my vase (Herakles and Hippolyte).
Kirk's design was the only source Spode used for this plate according to the linked information:
http://www.spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/heracles-fighting-hippolyta
Here also the Spode design with the man on the left of my vase in the composition (1804):
http://www.spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/bellerephons-victory-over-chimera
Spode also exported to Russia. See source information:
https://www.tretyakovgallerymagazine.com/articles/2-2016-51/english-pottery-russia-18th-and-19th-centuries
Quote:
ENGLISH POTTERY IN RUSSIA. In the 18th and 19th Centuries
Darya Tarligina
Article: HERITAGE
Magazine issue: #2 2016 (51)
'The reign of Catherine the Great saw English faience in all its diversity take the Russian market by storm. Its attractive price, compared to porcelain, and superior artistic design made English faience extremely popular with the Russian nobility: indeed, as the natural scientist and diarist Andrei Bolotov wrote, by 1796 many had started “buying, and filling their homes with English faience crockery”.[1] It was accepted as perfect for everyday purposes, combining quality, practicality and elegance, and by the 1830s faience was commonly found in many households. Unlike porcelain, which was reserved for special occasions, “Faience dinnerware is not a luxury: it is used every day,” the writer Yevdokim Ziablovsky wrote in his work “Russian Statistics”.[2]
At that time, the Russian market was attractive to English makers of faience, with many of the best names producing sets and individual pieces for export to the country, among them Josiah Wedgwood, Josiah Spode, the Clews brothers, Charles J. Mason and Leeds Pottery. Later, they were joined by companies such as Brown-Westhead, Moore & Co. and Wedgwood & Co. Pieces from these factories could be purchased in diverse ranges, including a wide variety of styles, materials and decoration. The creamware, ironstone, earthenware, Jasperware and Basalt ware were finished with painted patterns, relief-work, overglaze and underglaze decor, lustre and other decoration.' (my emphasis)
So during the period I believe my vase was made, Kirk's designs could indeed be seen in Russia.
On the Spode site they show pictures of Tischbein's engravings taken for some of their designs. For easy looking, the Tischbein ones on this link are those with a plain border around them. There are plenty with horses. None of the horses look like that on my vase or like the horse on the porcelain vase I linked to:
http://www.spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/Greek%20Pattern%20Source
I think it's entirely possible the source for my picture and the horse on the linked porcelain vase are both Kirk.
-
Interesting Wedgwood vase here in the British museum. The figure ground looks interestingly similar to that on my vase.
The museum says it is 'encaustic' painting.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?assetId=419051001&objectId=81347&partId=1
At the end of the description the museum says
' Like other vases already mentioned this one may well have been intended to stand on a mantelpiece; no other similar ones are recorded.'
Encyclopaedia Britannica says this of encaustic painting:
https://www.britannica.com/art/encaustic-painting
Is that possible on a glass vase?
m
-
blue opaline bowl, same blue, matt ground - c.1840
http://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/footed-bowl/28728?ds=eyJxIjoiZ2xhc3MifQ%3D%3D&i=1509
they have a number of pieces all in this thick blue opaline, all dating similar and Bohemian
http://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/saucer-plate/28717?ds=eyJxIjoiZ2xhc3MifQ%3D%3D&i=1504
http://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/box-with-cover-with-copper-mounts/13546?ds=eyJxIjoiZ2xhc3MifQ%3D%3D&i=1510
I don't know if Kirk's Outline engravings made it to Bohemia but can't see why not.
I had a good search through a collection of engraving of Greek vases in the Russian museum where the yellow Terracotta vase is and could see many books including one from the engravings from the British Museum later in the century but no Kirk's to be seen.
-
This vase from George Bacchus (signed/marked) c.1845-1850 has a transfer printed picture which I am 99.9% sure was taken from Kirk's Outlines...
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6250/vase-george-bacchus-and/
and the reference source here (Plate L11):
https://archive.org/details/outlinesfromfig00hami/page/34
this marked transfer printed Geo.Bacchus and Sons vase also from Kirk's engravings and I recognise many of the other transfer prints on the pieces on the net as well as being from that Kirk's source:
https://www.wpitt.com/product-p/bch674.htm
Source of that transfer print here:
https://archive.org/details/outlinesfromfig00hami/page/24
However they are marked, Geo Bacchus and Sons (apparently named that from 1841 to 1857/8 - yet to check source of that info) and they are transfer printed onto white opaline glass.
Mine is not marked. It is blue opaline (I don't think it's English opaline) and my picture is matt enamel and is hand painted not transfer printed.
m
-
well, no further forward but just adding this link I had on another thread.
Deep blue opaline lustres:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2735445_812-pair-victorian-satin-glass-lustres-luster
Maybe Schachtenbach.
My feeling is that the vase is neither Bohemian nor French because of the shape/form. But no evidence for that.
-
Link to another thread with a pair of thick opaline vases in green and very different shape, but with the remains of an 'Etruscan' style design around the colour.
The similarity to mine is that one is quite heavy and thick opaline and they are finished well at the rims, as well as the remains of the enamelling design.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,69527.msg387401.html#msg387401
-
Just adding as a prompt to me - to investigate Cristallerie Royale de Saint-Louis a bit further - unlikely but still worth looking:
https://voyagesexperiences.blogspot.com/2018/03/en-lorraine-le-musee-du-cristal-saint.html
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-26sSWainhxE/WpkhzU4xffI/AAAAAAAAo20/8qGD11d7ansD-N7tz-Nkx44CjRiI4h5JgCEwYBhgL/s1600/Saint%2BLouis%2B7.JPG
http://www.sarreguemines-passions.eu/index.php/les-manifestations/les-manifestations-passees/200-conference-saint-louis
http://www.sarreguemines-passions.eu/images/stories/Manif/Conf2013/Aquarium%202.png
https://www.mv-bracelet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/couleur-cristal-saint-louis.jpg
-
I am fully aware I'm going round in circles here but I've just looked again at this pair of vases and I simply cannot believe that the body of the vases is from a different mold to mine.
Mine here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132744;image
These are marked Richardson. As are the ones I linked to originally in this same shape in the V&A and the Corning. I know the foot is different. There is a difference in overall height of a cm or so but that could be accounted for by the different shape of the foot I think. Otherwise the body shape and rim is identical:
https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?PAIR-OF-RICHARDSON-VITRIFIED-ETRUSCAN-STYLE-GLASS-VASES-19TH-CENTURY-EACH-DECORATED-WITH-A-PRINTED-CLASSICAL-CHARIOT-IN-TERRACOTTA-PRINT-BORDERED-WITH&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62DFBD2E1FECEFF580CE5EB2EA8CB&auction=21EBCD0BD1&showLots=50&sortBy=lotsort&lotView=list&imagesOnly=N
However .... I can find no evidence of Richardson producing blue opaline glass in this period ???
-
I have been doing some more searching on this - after many years of researching and reading ;D - and come to a conclusion.
I've found a vase (no longer listed unfortunately) that was sold on ebay in 2019. It's marked Richardson vitrified and I believe it is one of the pieces as quoted in Jason Ellis's book page 327 which references that W.H., B. and J. Richardson were awarded the Royal Society of Art's Gold Isis Medal in 1847.
https://picclick.co.uk/W-H-B-J-Richardson-Vitrified-Blue-392204127851.html
The reference is part of a longer piece but I'm quoting the part specific to what I believe is the vase I've seen listed on ebay:
Quoted section removed as requested by OP.
This piece quoted refers to 1847 and of course Richardson may have continued to improve it's coloured glass by c. 1850 ish, but there is nothing in the whole information on pages 326 and 327 of that book, nor anything I've seen or found over the years of searching for this, to indicate Richardson's were producing the colour of blue opaline glass of my vase around that time.
For the moment then, I conclude that although the shape of the vase and top neck and rim are remarkably similar to many Richardson white opaline 'Etruscan' vases produced in that period, this was not produced at Richardson's glass c. 1850.
I don't think it is English glass because of the blue opaline and the shape of the stem and foot. If it is English, I think it can only have been produced much later because of the blue opaline but against that however, it's my opinion the enamelling and decoration and the stem and foot leads me to believe it was produced c.1850 ish.
So, off to other climes with this one :)
-
Came across this very interesting piece -
A green 'Chrysoprasglas' (uranium opaline glass) jug attributed to 'Annathal bei Schüttenhofen (zugeschrieben), um 1840-50.'
The jug is vertically panel cut with wide panels. Each alternate panel is painted with a matt biscuit coloured background and finely handpainted with scenes. The way they are painted is intricate and detailed using paints and inks. It isn't the same as the fine detailed line depiction on my vase which may have been done using a 'pen'.
This is the first time I've found a piece from this period which appears to have the same biscuit coloured enamel background painted on. It's described by the seller as a 'white' background
https://antikes-glas.de/glas-boehmen/seltene-kanne-eingefaerbtem-alabasterglas-emailmalerei-wohl-annathal-p-2496.html
Antikes Glas Neuwirth describe it as (google translate)
'Rare jug made of colored alabaster glass (so-called chrysoprase glass), offset multi-faceted foot, on the multi-faceted wall in gold and colorful enamel painting on a white background, depictions of mythical creatures and angels surrounded by floral bundles, leaves and tendrils, multiple, faceted, attached ears with gold line decor. Bottom with a dislocated demolition. Kanne is in a cured state.
Böhmen, Annathal bei Schüttenhofen (attributed), around 1840-50.
Height: approx. 24.8 cm, diameter: approx. 17.0 cm.'
My vase would certainly be the quality of Annathal bei Schüttenhofen glass but it also indicates this type of matt biscuit enamelling background was done in the period 1840-1850 in Bohemia.
There is also a becher in matching style:
https://antikes-glas.de/glas-boehmen/seltener-becher-eingefaerbtem-alabasterglas-emailmalerei-wohl-annathal-p-2497.html
link to a close up of the biscuit coloured enamel painting on my vase:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132748;image
-
Kirk's outlines
Just adding this plate from Kirk's Outlines published 1804 as I came to search the thread and couldn't find any link to it.
It's the picture on my vase which we know is taken from Kirk's and not another source, because the drawing is exactly the same and the lion's paw is covering Hercules' modesty:
https://www.akg-images.com/archive/-2UMEBMBJYBGW0.html
-
Just adding because it's turquoise blue opaline glass
finger rinser
V&A collection (from Jermyn Street collection?)
black and white pic
Turquoise blue opaline glass with gilded picture and picture has a ground (man carrying pitchfork/garden tool and basket of flowers walking towards house)
First quarter 19th century
French
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1285/wine-glass-cooler/?carousel-image=1
-
for future reference - similarities in the way the design has been applied on the biscuit coloured background and outlined:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132748;image
and this becher
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4179200
-
In reference to my post #135 where I said I believed the vases I was discussing in that post from George Bacchus were done with Kirk's outlines as the source for the pictures ...
see here:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6250/vase-george-bacchus-and/
Link to my post #135 here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53085.msg381580.html#msg381580
...I've come across this item for sale. I'm adding it because it's blue opaline and the vendor says it's by George Bacchus. I couldn't see a primary source reference for that identification though, however the seller references a decanter found on the cover of 5000 Years of Glass Hugh Tait:
https://www.exhibitantiques.com/item/3932/exhibitantiques/Rare-George-Bacchus-Blue-On-White-Cased-Glass-Decanter-c1850.html
The V&A have the decanter (white overlay over ruby with mitre cutting) which I believe is the one shown on the cover of 5000 Years of Glass Hugh Tait, as by George Bacchus but I couldn't see a primary source reference for that identification either:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O326654/decanter-and-stopper-george-bacchus-and/
I think this is the same as the one shown in British Glass 1800-1914 Charles Hajdamach page 87. On page 84 he discusses this decanter. I couldn't find in the book a primary reference source for that identification.
I think this white over red decanter is pretty amazing glass blowing (cased) and cutting and overall design. Very different to, for example, this transfer printed white opaline vase also in the V&A and actually marked Geo.Bacchus & Sons Vitrified Enamel colours, seemingly produced around a similar time frame:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6250/vase-george-bacchus-and/?carousel-image=2017JR8054
-
Interesting to compare that Bacchus white over red mitre cut decanter in the V&A
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O326654/decanter-and-stopper-george-bacchus-and/?carousel-image=2006BF3608
with a white over red Saint-Louis flask/decanter here:
https://laterreestunjardin.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Cristal-Saint-Louis-12.jpg
https://laterreestunjardin.com/cristallerie-saint-louis/
-
In your link, Exhibit Antiques also mentions page 265 in McConnell’s The Decanter. That shows the red V&A one next to a very similar green one, the green one has a rim like the Exhibit Antiques example. McConnell annotates them as by George Bacchus “as exhibited in 1851”. They are in the chapter on The Great Exhibition of 1851 so presumably that is documented somewhere as the primary reference.
-
Thank you Ekimp for the further information :)
On the British Museum site it shows a white over red example here:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/H_2009-8049-1-a-b
and mentions there is a 'similar example in the V&A, acquired in 1854' and also goes on to mention 'another example' in C. Hajdamach, 'British Glass 1800-1914', so possibly three different examples? :
'Curator's comments
See B. Morris, 'Victorian Table Glass and Ornaments', London 1978, p. 35 and p. 37, pl. 17 for a similar example in the V&A, acquired in 1854: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O326654/decanter-and-stopper-george-bacchus-and/
For another example see C. Hadjamach, 'British Glass 1800-1914', Woodbridge 1991, col. pl. 6, p. 87, text p. 84. Bacchus & Sons were widely praised for their cased and cut glass shown at the Great Exhibition of 1851, see 'Art Journal Illustrated Catalogue of the Great Exhibition of 1851', p. 32.'
The link given of P.32 in the catalogue of the Great Exhibition shows a number of examples of glass exhibited by Messrs. Bacchus & Sons. Unfortunately none are like these decanters.
See p.32 as indicated in the British Museum Curator's comments:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Art_Journal_Illustrated_Catalogue/f0EHIyNi3uAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=art+journal+illustrated+great+exhibition+george+bacchus&pg=PR7&printsec=frontcover
The information in the British Museum notes says the example in the V&A was acquired in 1854. Unfortunately on the notes on the V&A link to that example nothing is mentioned about the date it was acquired.
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O326654/decanter-and-stopper-george-bacchus-and/