Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on May 07, 2006, 03:36:20 PM
-
Is this lovely little tazza S&W "Moresque"? See Hajdamach pp276–7, who dates its launch to 1889. Although it looks ruby and gold, the threading is in green, something between an apple green and an emerald green.
Click on picture gallery (http://www.bernard.cavalot.btinternet.co.uk/g6507a/gallery.htm).
Average file sizes: thumbnails 1.6Kb, standard images 14Kb, SuperSize images 44Kb. Software: IrfanView (free download).
Anyway, questions. Any other names for this style? Did they make other shapes? Was Oscar Pierre Erard involved in this design? How long was it in production? I've never seen anything like it before, only the rather less delicate uncoloured styles which Manley attributed to Richardson.
Bernard C. 8)
-
It's a pity that there wa no illustrated example of "Moresque" in the Hajdamach book. But from the very brief book description and your excellent images, Bernard, I'd agree that "Moresque" could fit as being finely trailed over a moulded pattern. I don't recall seeing an example anywhere.
It might be wise to show the Tazza to Roger Dodsworth.
-
... I don't recall seeing an example anywhere. It might be wise to show the Tazza to Roger Dodsworth. ...
Kevin — Thanks for your considered reply. As it happens, I did show it to Roger at Broadfield House, about ten days ago. It was he who suggested that it was threaded in green, not amber, as I had previously supposed. It was only today, catching it in the sunlight at a particular angle, that I could clearly see the green. There is little or no response to my UV tester.
... It's a pity that there was no illustrated example of "Moresque" in the Hajdamach book. ...
I got the strong impression that Roger hadn't seen one before, or at least not one quite like it. He certainly spent a long time examining it. If Broadfield House does not have one in its collection, that would explain the lack of a photograph in Hajdamach.
Thanks for your sensible comments about image dimensions, file sizes and bandwidth. Unfortunately the few of us who take these matters seriously are a tiny minority.
Bernard C. 8)
-
Magnificent find! Refreshing to see something so well made!
-
Aha! I lied :oops: I had seen something (broadly) similar before - in one of my cupboards :!:
A pair of small salts, 2 3/4 inch diameter & 1 3/4 inch high. Clear feet. The image link below shows that there is what looks like a very intricate pattern within the glass as well as being machine trailed on the outer surface. Actually, the inner pattern is simple diamonds and is hardly noticebale to the touch - some of the patterning in the image appears to be a result of an optical illusion.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1792
Ok, these are nowhere as nice as Bernard's tazza, and the trailing is definitely just regular pink, but perhaps they are of the same general manufacturing process - and possibly also S&W? Or they may have been made by another of the companies producing trailed wares, of which Thomas Webb was certainy one.
My salts came from the Cyril Manley collection, through the sale of his massive Salt colletion, a few years after the main glass was sold. No attribution was given.
-
Hi Bernard,
Very nice Tazza (please let me know if it's for sale :D
I have a very small collection of this type of glass, and have always been under the impression it was made by S&W, but have yet to see any positive attributions from a reference source. Some of the shapes (box pleated rims for example) are tell tale signs of S&W, but again I've not seen anything specifically referenced :(
Brian
-
Kevin — There's a lot of skill in this type of work, a whole step up from basic match-striker machine threading. For instance the requirement is not just to accurately thread, but to distort the thread to a precise more semi-circular cross section on the high points of the mould-blown pattern. So I don't think many glassworks would have been involved in its production.
... Very nice Tazza (please let me know if it's for sale) ...
Brian — It will be for sale when I have found out as much as possible about it. I don't collect glass, other than damaged reference pieces. I'll let you know.
What do you mean by "box pleated rims"? With an edge profile like battlements on the top of a castle or city wall?
Bernard C. 8)
-
Hi Bernard,
.
What do you mean by "box pleated rims"? With an edge profile like battlements on the top of a castle or city wall?
Yes I think you've got it (although I never quite compared it to a castle wall :-) , here's an example I pilfered from the Great Glass site:
Brian
-
Brian,
We do not allow pilfering from other web sites or any other copyright abuse. You can provide a link to the page and the number of the piece for people to checkout.
Image removed.
Thanks
-
Er .... would you say this was an example of 'box-pleated rims'? http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1588
And if so, is this likely to be by S&W :shock:
-
Well this should be acceptable then - pilfered straight from my own curio cabinet:
Mod: Link removed as content changed to inappropriate site
Thanks for the lecture Bernard, I've reduced the image size (it's a whopping 14Kb) and will try not to post large file sizes in the future. But honestly why are you still using 640X480, running on an old laptop or something? I haven't run that low of resolution on a desktop for almost 20 years. :?
Brian
-
Er .... would you say this was an example of 'box-pleated rims'? http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1588
And if so, is this likely to be by S&W :shock:
Hi Leni,
This is a form of box pleating, but I don't believe it to be S&W. It could well be Bohemian (they copied the S&W mechanized rim crimping design).
Brian
-
Brian — thanks, that's exactly what I thought you meant.
Now, about your huge inline image. Why?
I'm trapped on a 640x480 screen, so now I have to scroll each way to read every line. I hate to think what it is like for those who are visually impaired and have to magnify their text. To print this topic, I now have to clear out my cache of downloaded images and go off-line. If you must include an image inline, please keep to an absolute maximum of 320 pixels wide. 200x150 would have been fine, I've just tried it. And it has an optimised file size of less than 4Kb. Also with a file size of nearly 50Kb, every eleven people who access this topic, whether or not they look at your image, will knock 1Mb off the GMB bandwidth allowance (inline images get counted twice, once on the way in and once on the way out), thus hastening the day when the ISP cuts us off.
So please, Brian, how about just a link, which we can choose to access, to a nice modest 4Kb 200x150?
Bernard C. 8)
-
... Thanks for the lecture Bernard, I've reduced the image size (it's a whopping 14Kb) and will try not to post large file sizes in the future. ...
Brian — Thanks for the transformation. It wasn't a lecture, I was being well-mannered and entirely reasonable! Come to think of it my OH keeps telling me I get more like a Grumpy Old Man by the day. I can't think what she means! :lol:
... But honestly why are you still using 640X480, running on an old laptop or something? ...
A replacement reconditioned monitor that I can't seem to tease out of its default 640x480 mode. Before this I was running on a much larger screen size, switching into 640x480 mode when systems testing web pages such as eBay listings. Moral: never believe a salesman when you are told that it is easy to install, as you just have to swap them over.
Back to topic, did you notice the tazza's pattern count, which I added to my gallery? It's 14, only the second time I have found a pattern count on a blown mould which is not a factor of 360, and the first which is a multiple of 7.
Bernard C. 8)
-
...did you notice the tazza's pattern count, which I added to my gallery? It's 14, only the second time I have found a pattern count on a blown mould which is not a factor of 360, and the first which is a multiple of 7.
Bernard C. 8)
That's an interesting observation.
I checked the pieces I have:
*squatty rose colored rose bowl - it also has the pattern count of 14
*small root beer colored round posy vase with applied crystal hot worked feet that go up the side of the vase - also with a pattern count of 14
*root beer colored finger bowl and underplate - the pattern is very light in the bowl, I couldn't see it well enough to count it. The underplate doesn't appear to have a pattern at all, although it matches the finger bowl.
Both the rose bowl and the posy vase have the pattern pretty well defined, and dare I say it appears to be an air trap design similar to what we call mother of pearl in the states. The finger bowl appears to be more of a diamond quilt optic pattern molded into the glass, without the airtrap treatment.
Brian
-
Bernard,
For the benefit of the contributors to the message board, let me repeat the information I gave you on the 7th May, and provide you with the supporting research information.
The piece you have is not Stevens and Williams “Moresque”. Moresque was a moulded design of irregular lines similar to the “Moire” design in silk fabrics. This moulded pattern was first produced by Thomas Webb & Sons and registered under the number 58375 on 8th October 1886. It was described as “Diaper of irregular lines forming watery or wavy pattern on the surface of glass”. S&W copied this moulded pattern in 1889 where they used it as a moulded background on large flint (crystal) vases that were covered with gilt decoration by Pierre Erard. In the same year items appear in the pattern book showing this moulded design covered in threading. In 1891 an item with puce threading is shown and then in 1893 various vases are found with this technique and the name “Mooresque” (note the spelling). You can view an image of the relevant pattern book by visiting http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/mooresque.htm. It then disappears from the pattern books until 1912 where it is found on preserve dishes and is described as a “Moresque” mould; once again it is in combination with gilding (not Erard) or threading. In 1925 it appears for the last time in combination with coloured threading and various other moulded designs such as “Festoon”, “Scale”, “Hammered” and “Wavy”. Colours used were “Rose body, green threads”, “Rose body citron threads” etc. Images from the pattern books are featured at the above URL.
The design that you have was described by Manley as S&W “Jewel Ware”. Although “Jewel Ware” is a name given to a design by S&W it is of something completely different. The diamond mould in connection with threading as use on your piece is not shown at all in the S&W pattern book. This makes Richardson the favourite for the manufacturer of your piece with Thomas Webb as a possible outsider. Manley does illustrate a piece of “Moresque” as item 291; a piece now in my collection and probable coming from the early 20th Century period.
The item you have is indeed very attractive and was very popular judging by the frequency that I see it at our Glass Fair. I have a strawberry set comprising a comport shaped stand with six dished side plates. The work is very fine and is consistent with that of the late 19th Century rather than early 20th Century.
Finally just to comment on the much finer example of S&W work contributed by Brian.
This is a “Fingercup in Filigree” and appears in 1887 under the pattern number 12916. It is often referred to as Latticino but is actually listed as Filigree and was advertised under this name in the Pottery Gazette of 1887. Brian’s example is in the more unusual blue colour (they produced it in 5 colours) and uses the Northwood 1884 patented crimped top. Unusually the shape of this crimp is not given in the pattern book until 1925 where it reappears and is described as a “Key Crimp”.
See you at the Glass Fair on 21st May, Heritage Motor Centre, Gaydon; J12 of M40 - http://www.glassfairs.co.uk
-
Hi Dilwyn,
Thanks for your post.
Just to be clear, I was only illustrating what we commonly refer to in the states as a S&W box-pleated rim, not “Moresque” or such, and was aware that the piece is a S&W Latticino/Filigree fingerbowl. I am working on an article on S&W threaded glass, would you happen to have a copy of the 1887 Pottery Gazette showing the Filigree advertisement that I could see or use for the article?
You seem to have access to the S&W catalogs. Are these accessible somewhere for everyone to view?
Also the link you posted referencing the “Mooresque” in the S&W pattern books, is that part of a larger article?
Thanks,
Brian
-
Brian,
I understood that your fingercup was used to illustrate the box-pleated rim; but having a Rose coloured version myself I know just how beautiful the work is and wanted to share the research on it.
I have posted a copy of the Pottery Gazette advertisement (http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/fingercup.htm), but you will see it is only text and it states that no illustrated catalogue is available. A much larger image could be sent via email.
I am glad that you are writing an article on threaded glass, so if I can help in any way please ask.
The S&W pattern books are available on micro-fiche in the Dudley Archives and at Corning Museum of Glass. The original books are with Broadfield House Glass Museum. I have over the years spent many hours studying them and have recorded a significant number of pages digitally. In doing so I have had to sign to say that they are for my own personal use and therefore have not made the set available online. If you have a picture of any S&W piece that you want me to look up, let me know and I will see what I can do.
The information I have posted is not part of any article, yet.
I have also posted pictures of the “Manley” Moresque bowl and my threaded, diamond mould comport/tazza (http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/mooresque.htm); this also has the 14 pattern count. In addition I have checked two Diamond satin air trap (Mother of Pearl) vases that I have positively identified as Thomas Webb & Sons and they have a pattern count of 16.
By the way the intent of threading over a moulded design was to trap air, which adds to the colour variations and sparkle of the pieces. It can be seen clearly in the Moresque bowl illustrated.
-
Hi Dilwyn,
Thank you for posting the copy of the Pottery Gazette advert. It's very interesting as it brings up a few designs I've never seen (that I know of) such has Sea-shell glass, Caleri Glass, Rustic Glassware, Vandyke, and The "Incrusted" Art Glass Ware. Very interesting indeed.
I'm glad to hear that the blue colored Filigree fingercup is a rare one. An interesting story, a lady had a set of four of these for sale some time back. She had no idea what they were, but wanted about $800 for the set. I went in on them with a friend and my Mom, getting two for myself :) Their very nice, and rarely seen. The cameo glass Filigree pieces I've only seen in the Charles Hajdamach British Glass book.
For my online article I'm planning to use examples from my collection of Jeweled Glass (Rd #55693, we also call it zipper glass in the U.S.), Tapestry Glass, Osiris Glass, Northwood Pull-up, Filigree/Latticino Glass, and some of their threaded mother-of-pearl air trap zipper pieces. If you have anything from the Stevens & Williams catalogs on these types of glass that you can share, I'd love to see it.
I looked through the Corning Museum's online Library index, and it appears that they have the Stevens & Williams catalogs lumped together. For instance: Description books, no. 21-24. Ware 23415-28001, Stevens & Williams Brierley Hill Glass Works Staffordshire, England 1897. I am checking to see if they will allow an inter-library loan of the microfiche. It would be fantastic, and what an excellent resource if someone would publish these catalogs. I wonder why it hasn't been done?
Also I see that you're working on a book on Webb Burmese. I believe I have one of the Webb Burmese color variants (lilac maybe?). I have about 30 examples of Webb Burmese, and this piece is colored like no other I've ever seen. I also have a decorated rose bowl in what we would call unfired Burmese (white). I can get some pictures this weekend if you'd be interested in seeing them.
Thanks,
Brian
-
Brian wrote:
what an excellent resource if someone would publish these catalogs. I wonder why it hasn't been done?
Usually the reason for this is the costs involved, and the limited market.
Whilst academics, libraries and some dealers may be prepared to invest in that kind of knowledge, the necessarily high shelf price, which reflects the cost of production, is sufficient to deter less well-off collectors. No publisher likes remainders.
Little demand, no supply.
Regards,
Le Casson
-
Le Casson that may well be true, but I've seen books published about a lot more obscure glass makers then Stevens & Williams. This would be an easy one, just copy the catalogs. There's been several catalog reprints of CF Monroe (probably not well known in France and the U.K.) and they sell for a paltry $20 (pocket change in the EU and U.K.).
Maybe someone just needs to explore the possibilitiy.
Brian
-
I take your point on-board, but catalogues, and pattern-books, are very different things. Catalogues are produced as a marketing aid, and tend not to have serious copyright issues attached. Company pattern books are arguably not produced to aid marketing, and copyright issues can be very complex.
I know of at least one UK manufacturer (which no longer exists), whose pattern books, now belong to another company, which would never consider allowing anyone to publish the pattern books, in any manner, which would undermine that company's image. Knowing the holding company, any publication of the pattern books would have to be on high quality gloss/art paper. A pain for the knowledge base, but that company spends prolific amounts of money protecting both its image, and brands.
Regards,
Le Casson
-
Brian,
It is our Glass Fair this weekend (http://www.glassfairs.co.uk) and I will need more time to respond fully so just briefly:
Some of the named glass I have located in the pattern books, others are unclear e.g. Sea Shell could apply to what you have referred to as Jewelled Ware because it resembles a sea urchin; Jewel Ware could be something different.
Your proposed online article resembles a lecture I do that covers the technical skills of John Northwood and is illustrated with designs from the pattern books. It also shows that Tapestry is not Flint threaded ware enamelled by Erard; I would be interested to know what your version is. I would also like to see your “threaded mother-of-pearl air trap zipper piece” because this is also clearly shown in the pattern books and I know what this looks like.
Description books 21 to 24 cover the years 1897 to 1901 and do not show any of the above glass. They major on the work of Orchard and Hodgetts namely polished intaglio/transparent cameo work on multi-cased (coloured) blanks. Books 10 to 15 cover the glass we jointly appear to be interested in.
Yes my book on Burmese is long over due but I keep promising myself to finish it this year. I would be very interested in seeing the examples you mention and any special/unusual pieces you might have in particular any with a moulded surface design such as Webbs version of Moresque. How’s that for bringing us back to the subject.
Have a good weekend
Dil
-
Out of interest, other readers may find it as fascinating as I do, that Harry Northwood creatively translated the concept of threading into some items of his press-moulded iridised ware (I hesitate to use the words "Carnival Glass" within this topic thread :lol: )
On his "Butterfly" handled bon bon, the exterior pattern was an ingenious threaded "look-alike" (strictly not seen on all of the "Butterfly" bonbons, as some have a plain exterior). The "Threaded" exterior examples are very sought after.
Harry Northwood also produced a variation of his "Tornado" vase with a "Ribbed" exterior that is reminiscent of threading. I've put some photos here that show it (and also a plain "Tornado" vase).
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=30
Harry would appear to have taken his father's 1885 patented threading machine one step further.
Glen
-
Hi Dil,
I hope you did well at the Glass Fair. I will get pictures this weekend and send you a link with some examples of what I'm planning to include in my write-up as well as the couple pieces of Webb Burmese that may be of interest. I'd be very interested to learn more about your Northwood lecture.
I'm working on ordering the microfilm of the Stevens & Williams design books 10-15 as you've suggested. I wish I could make digital copies of the microfilm, but apparently I'll have to settle for photocopies.
Thanks,
Brian
-
Here's a beautiful berry bowl set (including the master berry bowl!) at auction:
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6628685052
Interestingly they attribute it to Stevens & Williams.
Brian
-
Out of interest, other readers may find it as fascinating as I do, that Harry Northwood creatively translated the concept of threading into some items of his press-moulded iridised ware....
On a technical basis what you are showing in this photograph is a twisted rib and not threading. Threading is a continuous, fine trail of glass applied to the body of an article; it resembles the thread of a screw.
Harry would appear to have taken his father's 1885 patented threading machine one step further.
The threading machine was patented in 1876 by William James Hodgetts of the firm Hodgetts Richardson and Son. John Northwood took out a patent in 1885 for a machine to manipulate threading; better known as the "pull-up thread" machine. The effect produced by Harry has no resemblence what so ever to that obtained using this machine.
-
Hi Folks,
Just to come back to the issue of placing on-line the S&W pattern books. Let me give you some data that puts the problem/costs into propective.
There are 67 Books. Book 1 starts in 1851 and Book 59 ends in 1945. In these 59 books the pattern numbers start at 21(!!!) and finish with 69500.
There are an average of five designs to a page making 13,900 double letter size pages. (The designs appear on the lefthand page, the costings and details of artists/workers on the right.) Over the years I have managed to capture 1847 of these pages to date. Each digital picture has to be processed and converted to pdf so that the books can be reproduced for ease of viewing. - It takes up a lot of time.
When you then consider that the pattern books of all the other Stourbridge factories exist, but in much larger formats not conducive to easy photography, you begin to realise that without national interest and funding the task is unthinkable.
-
Dil - thank you for your comments. I am aware of the history of the threading machine(s) - I have Hajdamach's tome to hand.
I stand by my observation. My feeling is that Harry Northwood "creatively translated" (my specific choice of words was deliberate) the concept of applied threading on to several of his Carnival Glass items. The Butterfly bonbon exterior is a good example - the Tornado vase is an "offshoot".
We shall have to agree to disagree, I think.
Glen
-
I found something very interesting. I was thumbing through the April 2004 Early's Auction catalog, and spied a compote in the kind of glass that Bernard initially posted (page 32, lot 341).
When I read the description I was surprised that it read:
"Signed Webb compote, cranberry foot and bowl with controled amber threading separated with a crystal rigaree stem, signed - Webb Patent, 6" tall."
Looks like they may well be Thomas Webb & Sons.
Brian
-
Brian — Your reference to the Webb piece with amber threading got me thinking, and left me unsure about the colour of the threading on my tazza. It could be amber or golden-amber threading, with the green colour that I could certainly see at a very specific angle the result of refraction through the distorted threads.
Since then, fourteen months ago, no progress, until two days ago, Bank Holiday Monday, August 27, 2007, at the Woking Art Deco & Nouveau Fair. I had the tazza on display, and, during a quiet spell (which you never really get at the glass fairs), Mervyn Gulliver checked over my stand and read my information ticket on the tazza with some interest. He then took me back to his stand and showed me the factory pattern book entry for it. Not a close match, but an exact one, with descriptive text and a date.
The succinct description reads: "Ruby body, diamond moulded, amber threads over." Pattern number 3701, dated July 12 1881, and made in several sizes.
Now for the really interesting part. Not Stevens & Williams, Richardson, Webb, or Boulton & Mills, but Stuart.
According to Gulliver, Victorian Decorative Glass, 1881 is also the year when Frederick Stuart left the partnership of Stuart & Mills at the Albert Glassworks, Wordsley, and set up on his own, acquiring the lease of the Red House Glassworks from Philip Pargeter, becoming Stuart & Sons in 1885. So this tazza must be one of the earliest independent designs of Frederick Stuart.
My sincere thanks to all who contributed.
Bernard C. 8)
-
Bernard the pictures have disappeared on this thread and I wondered if you still had a photograph of your tazza please?
thank you
m
-
M yes, somewhere. I will dig them out and put them back.
Bernard C. 8)
-
M yes, somewhere. I will dig them out and put them back.
???
-
Not to throw the topic off kilter - but I wonder if this pattern in this link is the pattern Bernard was referring to on his Tazza where pictures have now disappeared?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-STEVENS-WILLIAMS-THREADED-ART-GLASS-Compote-W-RASPBERRY-PRUNT-PONTIL/373079920497?hash=item56dd4bcf71:g:sCQAAOSwvqde4TYJ
If it is the same,then this might be the pattern Bernard had identified by Mervyn Gulliver as by Stuart.
-
I think if my memory serves me correctly, that Bernard's tazza which he had had identified as Stuart was a tazza version of these plates which are in the Met Museum. Unfortunately the Met Museum has them id'd as 'possibly Boston and Sandwich'
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/6437?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&ft=New+England+Glass+Company&offset=660&rpp=20&pos=662
They have a number of plates and also this tazza which I think might be the same decor:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/8255?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&ft=New+England+Glass+Company&offset=660&rpp=20&pos=675
Also Cyril shows a picture in his book on page 64 or item 81 where he shows the base version of a bowl which I also think might be in this same pattern. It has a raspberry prunt over the pontil mark and three curled shell feet.
Open to correction and of course Bernard's photos are not on here any more but that's what I remember.
SEe also this link on our GMB for further versions and information :)
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60786.msg342759.html#msg342759
-
more examples in the met in a different shape - a set of finger bowls:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/3623?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&ft=New+England+Glass+Company&offset=680&rpp=20&pos=687
-
Some additional information on the linked thread I gave above.
Bernard has given pattern numbers and an ID of Stuart for his tazza having had the piece with him at a Fair whilst looking at the Stuart pattern books and discussing with Mervyn Gulliver.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5410.msg99233.html#msg99233
The additional information for discussion is that I have just seen on a recent National Glass Fairs page Dilwyn Hier has identified a plate as being from Thomas Webb and gives a pattern number and description. I think the plate is the same design as these items?:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60786.msg342759.html#msg342759
National Glass Fairs information:
http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/Images/News/diamond_threaded-(2).jpg
It shows a large bowl with a fluted edge in what appears to be this decor? Is it the same as these on the thread?
The information on the Nat Glass page says, if the item shown is the same decor as these, that they are by Thomas Webb:
'Threaded Air-trap
Frequently referred to as "Jewel" ware, this type of glass is often incorrectly attributed to Stevens & Williams. Research by Dilwyn Hier has busted this myth by identifying the designs from the Thomas Webb & Sons pattern books.
The pattern number is 13655, dated 1881/2, which describes a threaded ware: "Body, flint, slightly cased in ruby, gold threads & large diamond mould.". The Webb pattern is reproduced on the website.'
Link to National Glass Fairs page here (you may need to scroll down to see the item)
http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/news.html#stourbridge
-
coming to this one many years late, it looks obvious that poor old Bernard's demise occurred before he could replace his original picture of what he believed may have been S. & W. Moresque, and in view of the lack of Bernard's picture then this thread may now be defunct.
I hadn't contributed to the thread, so brain likely not au fait with all that has been said, but recall we've spoken about Moresque previously, somewhere, and thought I'd posted a reproduction of the original factory drawing - courtesy of TNA.
However, I hadn't realized that in fact S. & W. had created two separate, but fairly similar, designs for this decorative feature - 137288 dated 04.11.1889, and a later allocation 612352 dated 31.12.1912 ...... both are shown in Gulliver, and both have typical close contoured lines showing a Moorish looking pattern. Why two separate Registrations I've no idea, and why over twenty years apart is also a mystery.
So, just for the record - though almost all of the contributors to this thread have departed the GMB - attached is a reproduction of the earlier of the two Registrations. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the later design, yet, but if you have Gulliver they appear on pp. 266 and 268.
-
Thank you Paul.
That's helpful to see a representation of the S&W Moresque because as far as I recall and can see from my notes, that is definitely not the design Bernard was talking about.
m
-
do you have Gulliver m? - I'll try and get to Kew in the coming weeks and will then hope to post the later Registration.
-
I do have Gulliver and have just checked. I think the two patterns are slightly different :-\ so that might be why? Or it could be that the second one has threading around the rim over the already in place Moresque pattern. So it could be registering that whole design.
See also a weird thing with Richardson on page 261 where they appear to have registered a vermicular pattern twice, once under R. D. 96705 August 24 1854 and then again under R. D. 98170 November 16, 1854. Odd. It seems they (he, actually, as it was registered under Benjamin Richardson Registered Designs when the company changed name) registered it separately to cover globes, lampshades and pedestals.
-
The two separate Moresque Registered designs, whilst having some small difference in appearance were, IMHO, intended to be identical. The original factory drawings may well have been drawn by different hands, with the obvious resulting slight difference in appearance, but the basic pattern of contoured lines, in both, is very similar.
I'm all for going with the idea that the factory - in raising a second Registration - were simply covering their backs by adding threading to their earlier Moresque design just in case some clever dick did something similar in order to get round the legal protection that the first Registration afforded Richardson. At the dates we're speaking of, trailing and threading by machine was still some years away, but the ornamentation of the process was popular, so re-Registering their Moresque design to include threading may have been seen as necessary caution.
As for details of the vermicular, we'll have to ask Anne (Mod.) to change your 96705 to read 96703, and to correct the date to 26th August - you cost me hours this morning in hunting and not finding 96705 ;) - touche ;D ;D Gulliver has written the incorrect date of August 24th, which assume you've copied - the Kew Register shows 26th August - Ray Slack is correct - and Thompson shows the actual Register page, so no doubting the date.
-
Oh really sorry about that :-[ Thank you for correcting the error. I did indeed copy Gulliver.
-
it's a shame that so much of Mervyn Gulliver's annotations to his drawings are written in such small script - it's almost a case of needing a magnifying glass. My comments about the difference, or not, in the two Moresque patterns was only my opinion, you may well be correct. Unfortunately, we may never know the definitive answer.
-
It's odd. I think the second one is the threading over the already 'threaded' or 'trailed' Moresque base pattern.
I mean, that process has to have been quite difficult to control hasn't it?
-
am not ignoring you m - will come back to this after lunch with some good info. :)
-
agree that threading must have been a skilled job whether manually, or by machine. Threading appears to have been produced mechanically by Hodgetts & Richardson after they patented William Hodgetts invention in 1876, for a machine to do this work. Hajdamach 'British Glass 1800 - 1914', (chapter on Patents & Techniques) writes that after this date other houses followed suite with their own version of mechanically produced threading, and judging by the material still around the fashion for this feature was obviously v. popular.
Coming back to S. & W. Moresque, and the two Board of Trade Registrations 137288 (1889) and 612352 (1912), see above - the latter incorporating horizontal threading over a Moresque body. In his book on Stevens & Williams/R.B., 'The Crystal Years', Williams-Thomas includes the first of these Rd. Nos. in his Appendix B (Design Registrations 1884 - 1928), p. 73.
On the nature of this Registration he writes - possibly his own wording but I'm unsure - "A surface decoration with pulled threaded decoration recovering with fine clear threading." I could be wrong, but he seems possibly to have confused the factory drawing of a plain Moresque image as per Rd. 137288 (without threading), and the later Rd. 612352, which does in fact show threading over a Moresque pattern. Frankly, if you lacked any knowledge of this subject I doubt that his description would make you any wiser - perhaps even he was unsure as to the processes involved and which Rd. referred to which design.
But, for reason I'm unaware of and in the same Appendix, Williams-Thomas omits reference to 612352 which does show threading over a Moresque pattern. Confusion it seems - so nothing unusual there then, and compounded by his insistence on wrongly classifying all those Registrations as CLASS IV.
M, I'm guessing to some extent, but your suggestion that the second threading is over the already threaded/trailed Moresque body pattern, would appear contrary to the known method of applying this form of decoration, which was that a glass body was held by one worker and revolved manually or mechanically, whilst another worker held another piece of glass - or machine - from which the threading was being supplied. In view of the decorative appearance of Moresque (contoured lines etc.), it would appear that this couldn't have been applied/produced mechanically by means of threading.
Hajdamach - same book - writes ............. ""The Stevens & Williams pattern books, especially during 1889, show a number of vases and bowls known as 'Moresque', in which the glass spiral was closely threaded on to shapes which had been blown into dip moulds carved on the inside with ogee shaped arches or other oriental and Near Eastern patterns. Once the piece was blown out, the effect of the dip mould softened into a gentle optical effect and with the addition of a layer of close threading it gave the appearance of watered silk."" - this is how we visualize the image shown in the factory drawing for 612352.
Reading the various authors there doesn't look to be a clear cut time line as to when the results of these two Registrations were put into use or for how long there were produced, and I dare say we will now never know.
Hajdamach appears to be suggesting that there was only the one layer of threading - the final layer over the already created Moresque pattern which had been created by dip mould process and not threading.
Over to you :-*
-
I should have looked at the books!
Your information is very comprehensive.
Going with Hajdamach's British Glass description it appears he is describing Moresque as there being a one and only Decor 'Moresque' that was the dip mold design with ogee shapes or similar on the body of the piece and also had trailing over the top of that.
So, I wonder if they patented the dip mold design first, and then also patented the final effect of the trailing over the dip mold design?
That could be why there are two patents.
Pure conjecture of course.
Thank you for looking all that up.
I think that concludes the S&W 'Moresque' design or decor - it was a dip mold body WITH a trailed design over the top.
-
yes, you could be correct with the suggestion that the first Rd. is simply Registering the dip mould process which provided the Moresque surface pattern - nothing to do with threading.