Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: horochar on November 05, 2006, 03:48:23 PM
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This will be old hat to longtime followers of this board, but a word to the wise. New Murano glass is being produced that imitates classic 1950s/1960s styles, forms and techniques. I don't believe I own many of these repros (which show great skill but a lack of imagination, and are guaranteed not to appreciate in value), but I'm sure I have a few in my collection. This website has some examples:
http://fossilflyimports.stores.yahoo.net/muglva.html (http://fossilflyimports.stores.yahoo.net/muglva.html)
I bought this rather large Oggetti Onesto vase from T.J.Maxx (of all places) yesterday for $125. I thought it was a creative twist on the sommerso thing, only to learn from my Pena book that it's a re-interpretation of a Gaspari Salviati form from 1960 (see p. 58 of Italian Glass Century 20). I know it's impossible to know, but could a derivative piece like this have investment potential? My response is probably not, and for investment rather than strictly decorative purposes one needs to buy top examples by top producers (i.e. "spendy" pieces, as they say here in Minnesota).
Charles.
Mod: Photo uploaded to GlassGallery
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8271
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I think the manufacturers site is mentioned here somewhere. Try Polish or Roumanian.
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Wow, those are even better repros than you usually see.
They are even doing the Barovier Tessera pieces?
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I think Fossilfly's imports directly from Murano, at least that's what their site says. From what i recall Murano artists have a long and glorious history of copying each other's styles and designs, with their own twists.
The fazoletto's and the dovetail sommersos for instance, even 60'ies
dovetails have several sources, not all were made by Poli and not all
early fazoletto's were by Fulvio Bianconi.
Much to my dismay as I have an early dovetail that i'd have liked to be by Poli. :wink:
Dovetail (http://www.wilhelmsen.no/glass/unknown.vase.D02.JPG)
It has the generic "Genuine Venetian Glass" red & gold label.
Alexander
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Well, after looking at a lot of the chinese 50's 'poli' stuff like this flying about, I am happy to think none of my pieces are Chinese.
But these are a different kettle of fish.
I would quite easily be fooled by them.
Thing is though, these are so good I don't think I'd mind, to be honest. :wink:
And they're not cheap either.
No doubt some of my pieces are new like these, but they look so good and I paid a bit less (on eBay) than the prices they're asking for them!! Obviously it would be nice to have the genuine 50's pieces, even if they are made by other artist of the period (and I'm sure some of mine are).
Anyway, while I'm here, there's something I've wanted to ask about the design influences on some of the Poli pieces, specifically the 'Dovetail, or 'Bow tie' style vases he designed.
But before i do that, I'll try and explain where I'm coming from with all this...
Now some of the pieces I have, and like some of those featured on the fossilfly website above, for example, are called 'Beak' vases (tho' fossilfly calls them "V neck"). That's fair enough. The 'Beak' style was a popular design motif of the 50's. Here's a couple of ceramic vases, made sometime between 1957 and 1961 that I own that have the classic 'Beak' style to them...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4010
Then some other pieces I have, like say this one...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3453
Or...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3469
and the fossilfly "Spout" vases, have that classic 50's organic, aysmmetrical design to them that, again, was huge influence on many things in the 50's.
Here's a couple more ceramic vases I have to help illustrate this...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4011
I mean, I can understand the design influences behind these 'styles' so far.
But what I don't get, and this is the point of all this (yeah, I know...finally!! :wink: ) is the "Bow tie" vases, and why they are so named. (Or Dovetails as I've also seen them named) I mean, the bow tie wasn't much of a design influence in the 50's.
I've always thought they had more of a 'Atomic bomb' shape and style to them. Now bearing in mind the dawning of the atomic age in the 50's, and the huge influence that had on 50's design, then would it not be fair to say that it was this that had more to do with the design influence behind these style vases than ...say...bow ties? :wink:
Here's a piccy of the bomb "Fatman" to show what I mean...
http://mothra.rerf.or.jp/Images/giff/fatman.gif
(obviously I had to google this piccy as, unlike with my ceramic vases, I don't have one of my own to illustrate where I'm coming from...too big for the mantlepiece, you know!! :lol: )
I've always assumed this was the influence behind the 'bow tie' vases, but does anybody know for sure?
I'd be really interested to hear your views on this...
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I've always assumed this was the influence behind the 'bow tie' vases
And If I'm right, shouldn't we calling them 'A Bomb' vases, or something like that? :wink:
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Could be Mandruzzato - they are still producing.
http://www.mandruzzato.ve.it/
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Anyway, while I'm here, there's something I've wanted to ask
I should've started a new message in it's own right to ask this question, instead of tagging it on the end of this one in here. Got a bit carried away... :wink:
So that's what I'll do. :)
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Nothing wrong with an "evolving" thread of talk, because it's still related to the general subject of distinguishing new from old and the ever higher quality of the new. The second paragraph of my post has been lost in the shuffle, though. Namely, what sort of glass is "investment grade"? Or to phrase the question a little differently, did I overpay in buying the gigantic Onesto piece from T.J.Maxx for $125? (My search of the web doesn't tell me if Onesto has shown price appreciation in the years they have been in business, and I cannot find any information on the "list price" for my piece).
Charles.
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Nothing wrong with an "evolving" thread of talk, because it's still related to the general subject of distinguishing new from old and the ever higher quality of the new. The second paragraph of my post has been lost in the shuffle, though. Namely, what sort of glass is "investment grade"? Or to phrase the question a little differently, did I overpay in buying the gigantic Onesto piece from T.J.Maxx for $125? (My search of the web doesn't tell me if Onesto has shown price appreciation in the years they have been in business, and I cannot find any information on the "list price" for my piece).
Charles.
Hi Charles.
I can't help you with this one. The most important thing for me when buying glass is, will it look good with my other 50's things on display in my home.
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I've been pondering this question of "investment grade" for a few hours,
I guess it depends on what level you are investing I'd say.
If you are looking for immediate returns only mispriced items should
be bought, and sold shortly thereafter.
If you are looking for long term appreciation of value there are two avenues, that can be combined.
One is to buy pieces from well established artists, preferrably popular in several markets.
With the expectation that the piece will appreciate nicely in value over the period you own it.
This usually means high-end items well above the four digit mark.
The other is to collect pieces from new and emerging artists in the hope that they will become popular,
usually less cash intensive but with a higher risk involved.
Both strategies are long term/deep pocket.
In the business world investment grade usually means something that you
expect will appreciate niecly over the years with a low risk of major loss.
One thing I have learned is that signature of well known artist = higher price.
Sometimes a very significant higher price. Same with unique vs serial.
For me the most important thing when buying glass is that I like it,
it will look good in my collection and it isn't overpriced.
I try to find pieces that are underpriced or that I think may appreciate some in value,
but I won't let a piece I want go just because it's priced at market value.
I hope my collection will appreciate in value,
but even if it doesn't it has value to me both as objects of art and being useful.
Your piece is beautiful and well worth the price, will it appreciate in value over the years above inflation?
I don't know. Is it signed?
If it is by Luigi Onesto then he's an established artist who commands
fair prices. From what I found he started out in the 60'ies.
An Onesto sale on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.de/Sommerso-Luigi-Onesto-Murano-Glass-Vase-Venini-Poli_W0QQitemZ180042340171QQihZ008QQcategoryZ92968QQcmdZViewItem)
This one is either not unique or has been sold several times on ebay.
Alexander
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Thanks for your thoughtful response.
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$125 for a glass piece at T.J. Maxx is an astonishingly high figure. I didn't think the place even sold glass at that rate. What were your odds at waiting a week or two and seeing the price get reduced? Were you concerned you would lose the purchase to another buyer?
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our localish!! Costco are selling a Murano whale tail, but very expencive
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I'm hesitant to give away secrets, but TJ Maxx (or maybe it's just the more expanded "TJ Maxx/Home Goods" locations) on rare occasions get good signed pieces, as opposed to the aisles of low-end Chinese and Polish glass. Sometimes these signed pieces get reduced more than once, so it might pay to wait, but there's obviously a risk to that. The best I've bought, at a third or a quarter of retail (they had the red "clearance" label) were a discontinued Salviati Sergio Asti piece and a discontinued Salviati Adam Aronson piece. I also bought a nice large Kosta Boda vase, at about half retail, just because I like it. The Onesto was sort of a crap shoot because it actually had no price tag on it, and I didn't bother to research. The store manager said he thought it was either a $100 or a $400 (Maxx price) piece, but somehow arrived at a price of $125. I'm hoping that it's actually more like a $400 (meaning $800 retail) piece, but either way I'm glad to own it. It's quite a bit cheaper than the $4,000 to $5,000 value Leslie Pena places on the Gaspari Salviati piece that it's derived from. They're both about the same size, around 20 inches tall.
I'm a dedicated Costco shopper for groceries, light bulbs, etc., but I've never bought their art glass. I too have noticed that they sometimes stock Murano. They had a really nice signed Salviati piece last holiday season at what I presume was a fair price. I hope they get more in.
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Very smart shopping. Playing the "how much will it be reduced over the next three weeks" game is risky, but sometimes fun. However, the piece you got seems like a winner.
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My local T.J. Maxx stocks & sells Murano l& its not the Chinese stuff either as most of the stuff comes with not only the Murano label, but a certificate. Large pieces are in the $75 range. Next time I drop in there I'll copy the names of the producers (there are two) & post them. I know a couple of dealers who buy Murano from T.J. Maxx & sell on eBay & neither one has ever had a complaint. Ken