Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => France => Topic started by: chilternhills on December 28, 2016, 07:52:32 PM
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[This thread has attracted much interest and discussion and has moved into a general area of re-use and copies of moulds. Selected text for that new area of discussion has now been set up in a new thread:
Re-use of moulds and other copies (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65609.msg366924.html#msg366924) to avoid confusion and several subjects/topics in the same thread and allow it to return to the original subject.
The copied text has been left in this thread to maintain full context with other points made. However, please now keep this thread specific to the Etling catalogues and post all comments and queries on re-use and copies of moulds in the new thread.]
I was quite excited by a quote here: https://www.justcollecting.com/glassware/etling-glass (https://www.justcollecting.com/glassware/etling-glass)
www.wies-baden.de has the 1930 original catalogue from Etling
Of course I went to the site, but it is not working very well. For example, the contact link is not functioning. I have been searching for an Etling catalogue without success for years. Can it be true? Does one exist?
Anton
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The sub-pages don't seem to work - but contact information is also on the start page, right hand side, possibly scroll down a bit - and this works.
Sub-pages can still be viewed on the WayBackMachine - but there I cannot find any hint about a 1930 Etling catalogue: possibly they had one for sale some time ago ... and have sold it long ago? Best to send an email and ask.
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I got in contact with the owner of "wies-baden.de" more or less "by accident" - he actually got such an Etling catalogue, is just not really interested in selling it, as he collects catalogues himself ... but if you make an offer, he can't resist ::). If you send me your mail address (click on the envelope on the left hand side) I'll forward his mail to you. Possibly you can discuss getting a copy(?).
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Thank you Wolf. This is great news. I have sent an email to you as requested.
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Any news yet about the catalogue?
I came across this article on the french on-line library and thought it might interest you, in the meantime. It's a sort of 'Home &Garden' from 1932 and there are about 20 pieces illustrated. Unfortunately the text is in french of course, but it talks about the design of glass ornaments and their designers and design in general from this period, but not much more.
No copyright mentioned.
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The last two pages, my apologies if they're not in the correct order.
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Unfortunately no reply yet from the owner of the Etling catalogue. Thanks for the article from the French magazine. Most of these designs I have never seen before and thus fills a gap in my knowledge. But I have one of these pieces in the museum collection, the galleon illustrated on page 130.
Anton
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I love this post! :) I have two of the vases pictured, together with other Etling pieces, however this also kind of answers my own post about Carrillo. It does seem that Etling, together with his own glass-workers and his entire family met their deaths during WWII in concentration camps, and his Salon in Paris, was also a casualty of Kristallnacht. Sevres, retain several Etling moulds, although I doubt that they have them all, and also have reintroduced several Etling patterns over the years, but none of these have been attributed to Etling and are signed Sevres. Whether or not this out of courtesy one couldn't say, but it does perhaps bring the designs by Carrillo into the equation...
Oh, and BYW, I'm up for purchasing a copy of the catalogue too, if you can obtain a copy! Pleeeeze. ;)
There are currently a pair of the Swan Bookends in opalescent for sale on eBay, and the sailing ship is also interesting to me, as I have a very similar example as a lamp in deep smoky-grey signed by d'avesn, who also used the facilities at Choicy-le-Roi as well as Sevres.
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Some of the Etling moulds ended up at Sabino too, but I've no idea of the history there (i.e. whether Sabino were producing for Etling pre-war, or if they acquired them after the closure of Etling's store). No idea about Carillo -- the only catalogue I've seen is the Luminax one that's been on the web for a while.
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As an update to the catalogue situation. It definitely exists :o I have been in contact with the owner and various options are being discussed. I can't say more at this juncture, except that it is an original 1930 Etling catalogue with illustrations of 70+ objects, vases, etc.
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[Text in Green copied to new thread on re-use of moulds]
Interesting that the same models and patterns are edited under different names.
I don't know if I've mentioned it here before, probably did but I can't even remember where I've been last week, but I read a rapport about a meeting in the 30ies a while ago, of which Marius Sabino was part. He mentioned that something really had to be done to stop the 'copieurs de vitrine', people who copied items displayed in shop windows, by drawing the designs in a little notebook, while they stood outside on the pavement, 'admiring' the items. It was not mentioned how these copiers worked, whether they were hired or working for other houses or they just sold designs by going from door to door, so to speak and I can't remember at the moment, when copyright was introduced in France...
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[Text in Green copied to new thread on re-use of moulds]
It is surely more that just probable that as with today, that "named" glass factories such as Sabino and Lalique, that numerous designers produced their works. It is common knowledge that d'Avesn for example designed a couple(?) of items whilst at Lalique, however Lalique purchased the copyright to all of d'Avesn's designs whilst under his employment and I can think of at least 18 patterns which d'Avesn wasn't credited for. He was more prolific than most in France during his working career and it still as yet unknown how many examples he produced not only as a freelance but also for other factories. His work, runs into many hundreds of different designs. I'm also aware that he even designed at least one pattern produced for and by Val Saint Lambert, whilst he was still at Verlys. I am not here to name & shame, however there is currently a very well known seller online that offers many modern-day replicas and fakes recently produced in former Czechoslovakia, and also currently has one of "his" faked Etling statues (complete with moulded phoney signature) for sale for a ridiculous price. He has also purchased glass figurines by the relatively little-known Maurice Model and then had them re-produced with an Etling signature... One always has to be on guard when an unknown pattern suddenly appears and then many same examples quickly follow... So-called Hoffman Malachite glass is just one casualty as so too is Galle and Daum, for example. I for one, don't have anything against modern-day copies provided they are sold as such. After all, not many can afford to collect genuine Rene Lalique car mascots and so 'exact' copies of them are fine in my book at a small fraction in price, but to be knowingly duped by scoundrels like "him" on eBay is not only wrong but also ???
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Anne Tique - It is very difficult to obtain copyright on ones own artistic designs even today. I can also recall when I was lamp-working glass, an occasion when I just knew that a guy was watching me work in a way which told be he was a glass blower too. He purchased my finished piece and then started knocking-them-out at his own studios. There was little that could be done about it, however from that day whenever I produced a new design I would photograph it, place it into a sealed envelope and send it Recorded Delivery to myself & my solicitor where they remained sealed & dated, just in case any lawsuit needed to be taken. Forgeries though are a completely different story. "Most" serious collectors of Sabino's work and of course Lalique, can spot a forgery or fake from a mile away, and is quite often the case that the glass itself no matter how well a fake has been produced, that is the tell-tale sign.
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[Text in Green copied to new thread on re-use of moulds]
Modern Hoffman malachite glass items not copies. They are legitimate reissues based on original moulds and are sold as such. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult to know which is period and which is modern.
Reissues and long production periods have been around a long while. The Davidson 269 (blackberry) pattern was made for almost 70 years and Davidson bought and used many moulds from companies that went under.
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I'm also aware that he even designed at least one pattern produced for and by Val Saint Lambert, whilst he was still at Verlys.
Which one, please?
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Anne Tique - The only one that I know of (though I would assume that their could probably be others too???) is a 10" (approx.) "Tourbillons' pattern bowl. It's a darn shame, 'coz I lost the link on my old PC about one of the owners of Verlys, who at the time was 'in' with those at VSL (and/or) came to Verlys from VSL at the same time when d'Avesn was at Verlys. I have had two examples of the bowl, one pink glass and the other in dark smoky-grey, both of which carried the P. DAVESN signature but with also "BELGIQUE" both marks in moulded relief. I have quite a collection of d'Avesn, none of which carry the Belgique mark. I never established if d'Avesn produced the bowls whilst at Verlys for VSL, or at the end/after his time with them, however although the smoky-grey glass was as is the Verlys 'Gris' glass colour-type, the pink glass was unlike any colour that I know of produced at/by Verlys. The bowl, is very deeply moulded, heavy and strikingly similar to his vase pattern of the same name for R Lalique.
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Modern Hoffman - what I meant was, modern-day Hoffman malachite, being 'passed-off' as period, which I automatically discard... There are also folks that seem to dismiss modern-day Czech items & Red-Ashay copies, particularly their car mascots for example, however I don't personally, as why shouldn't they produce them? After all, Lalique still produces designs by their Master! As so do many other factories, and rightfully so too in my opinion. Desna, has won many awards for their mascots, and even their Victoire example (which is practically identical to Lalique, though are most usually frosted) was voted for an award by Lalique themselves. I know which of each I'd rather have, but then again a modern-day examples are a fraction of the cost.
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Anne Tique - The only one that I know of (though I would assume that their could probably be others too???) is a 10" (approx.) "Tourbillons' pattern bowl. It's a darn shame, 'coz I lost the link on my old PC about one of the owners of Verlys, who at the time was 'in' with those at VSL (and/or) came to Verlys from VSL at the same time when d'Avesn was at Verlys. I have had two examples of the bowl, one pink glass and the other in dark smoky-grey, both of which carried the P. DAVESN signature but with also "BELGIQUE" both marks in moulded relief. I have quite a collection of d'Avesn, none of which carry the Belgique mark. I never established if d'Avesn produced the bowls whilst at Verlys for VSL, or at the end/after his time with them, however although the smoky-grey glass was as is the Verlys 'Gris' glass colour-type, the pink glass was unlike any colour that I know of produced at/by Verlys. The bowl, is very deeply moulded, heavy and strikingly similar to his vase pattern of the same name for R Lalique.
Are you sure it's VSL you're talking about? I haven't come in any of my books on VSL across d'Avesn. The only grey I can think of was used on the Mimosa vase, but the 'tourbillons' or curls, are much smaller. The Rosette bowl has larger ones, but wasn't available in grey and VSL never signed just Belgique. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk you out of the idea, but nowhere d'Avesn's mentioned in the history of VSL, I'm just trying to understand it because it's new to me. Have you got any images? What could be a possibility, now I'm thinking of it ... the Luxval range was set up by Charles Graffart and René Delvenne....d'Avesn/Delvenne ...Delvenne/d'Avesn ... if you say the names, just two letters are different ... [delvèn//davèn] ...see what I mean?
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Was it this one?
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Don't know whether this is the one Marcus is referring to, but the two handled bowl shown as no. 21 in the 1935 Luxval catalogue is very similar to a Verlys pattern.
http://glas-musterbuch.de/uploads/tx_extendedshop/16_02.jpg
http://brocante-lestrouvaillesdecaroline.com/fr/1046-vasque.html
Regarding grey glass from VSL, I had a Luxval 'Myriam' jardiniere which looked grey in some lights, but showed a greenish tint when backlit.
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They used a very dark olive green, if that's what you mean, and I expected the Verlys bowl to be brought up, but the coupe Noemie has 14 panels/sides and the Verlys has 16. The Noemie coupe was already in production in 1913, as well as some other models, absorbed in the Luxval catalogue 20 years later. The catalogue was set up due to the crisis and to provide more affordable articles. D'Avesn started at Verlys in 1937 but the Luxval range was already up and running at that time. But anyway, one never knows everything ...
... and we're way off the original topic here with 'who did what' ... guilty here too :-[ ... maybe a separate thread should be opened for this discussion, because I'm really curious what Marcus can say further about the relation d'Avesn-Vsl.
[Mod: selected text copied and set up in a new thread - see comments at start of this thread.]
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I think splitting off the stuff about d'Avesn into a new thread would be a wise choice as we're clearly getting away from the Etling catalogues...
[Mod: selected text copied and set up in a new thread - see comments at start of this thread.]
Regarding his dates at Verlys, it seems the literature all agrees on him starting in 1937. However, I have long suspected that he had some involvement with the firm before that. At the very least there was some exchange of ideas -- whether officially or as a result of copying -- by 1934 as several models in the Verlys catalogue that year are very close in form to pieces issued under the P. d'Avesn name (e.g. Verlys vases 1289, 1830, 1859 & 1816). Either way, it would have been well after 1913.
Back to VSL Luxval, I guess this piece below would be olive green then? I think I saw a 'Marcelle' vase in silvery gray once though but sadly didn't get a photo :(
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Yes, that's the colour. VSL already had a catalogue for pressed glass in 1897 of 66 pages, making it 100 pages in 1913, but I don't know if the Noemie was already in it, as I haven't got that one and the 1913 edition doesn't list the additions. If it was, it was registered as coupe 'Cotes Plates', like in the 1913 catalogue, absorbed in the Luxval range as Noemie in 1933-1935.
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Getting back to Etling and the patterns being issued under different names, the current online Sabino catalogue shows a figure 'ST205 The Lady and the Lamb' http://sabinoartglass.com/proddetail.asp?pid=48 . This appears to be the same as an Etling figure as shown in Decelle's Opalescence as fig. 55B, described as 'Femme nue portant une brebis'.
Likewise the vase V148 'Vase Art Nouveau' http://sabinoartglass.com/proddetail.asp?pid=134 is also seen with moulded Etling marks.
There's also this grape patterned bowl oddity which matches an Etling bowl but lacks marks and comes in atypical colours for Etling. I've seen about half a dozen examples now, all found in the UK and either in blue or pink. Two had English metal rims.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,19361.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40940.0.html
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Please see the comments in blue at the start of this thread.
Any reactions to previous posts, except for those on this original subject of the Etling catalogue, can continue in the new thread:
Re-use of moulds and other copies. (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65609.0.html)
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Going back to the original thread on Etling catalogues.....it went quiet for the last year. But I have more news to report.
It appears there was more than one edition of Etling catalogue. Earlier in this thread it mentioned a date of 1930 and a copy in the hands of a German collector. I have now been informed of an American collector with a copy of an Etling catalogue dated 1926.
The great news is that the collector in America is considering republishing that copy. Watch this space...
Anton
BTW, the Etling Project site is steadily improving: http://projetetling.wikidot.com/ (http://projetetling.wikidot.com/)
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I think I've seen those on Ebay earlier on this year, weren't they already copies?
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Really! I never noticed. Can anyone point me in the right direction? If there are copies out there I want one!
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You weren't thinking of the reprinted Hunebelle catalogue, perhaps? I bought that via eBay.
Morava, C. (1930) Modern Art in Glassware. Illustrated by a Few Master Pieces of the Master Glass Worker André Hunebelle. 49 pp. [Includes an extract from an article by M. André Fervant which appeared in the Illustration of 30th November 1929.] [Reprint #4/500 dated May 2017]
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Yes, you're right, it was indeed the Hunebelle catalogue, sorry for the confusion.
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The search for an Etling catalogue is turning out to be an extremely slow burner. I now have a picture of the front cover of the 1930 catalogue, but I can't share it here. ::) The glacial progress on this is a bit exasperating. Nevertheless, this copy seems to be a third one, in addition to one in the USA and another in Germany that I had heard of previously.
Anton
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At last! Here are two pictures from the 1930 catalogue. Even that single page from the catalogue has solved a mystery. The caravel is in the museum collection, but we didn't know the Choisy-le-roi catalogue number. Now we do. The catalogue is said to show 70 designs. I wonder what else is in there?
We also were sent scans of some Etling advertisements. We will add these to the project site asap on this page: http://projetetling.wikidot.com/documentation (http://projetetling.wikidot.com/documentation)
Anton