Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on December 21, 2010, 12:04:21 AM
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I recently bought the vase Steven put in this linked thread -
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31709.msg178865.html#msg178865
I believe it is a Prachen vase designed by Frantisek Koudelka and, dredging my memory, I think it is the Karneval range. Can anyone confirm this please? And also I think it is from 1973 - is this correct?
many thanks for any help :)
m
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Hi, M, I followed the link to the thread showing the green-red vase, "Big 30s Blown Cased Glass Vase With Bubbles, etc. WMF? Czech?" and it does not seem to have found an attribution by the end of the thread? I do not see Koudelka-Prachen elements except for Ivo suggesting maybe Prachen as a casual idea, not as a firm attribution...... if I have read the thread correctly.... It does not look Karneval (or Prachen) to me to me particularly... It looks like a possibly Czech vase though...
Robert (bOBA)
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thanks Robert :) I was just about to amend my post. I was querying my memory as well especially since I found reference to Karneval in Jindrich's pics of the CGR 73 - 2 and the decor looks different. I found a post where Marcus refers to CGR 73 May edition and the Karneval range, but I'm not sure that is edition 2? It may be that he was referring to edition 5 which is not on Jindrich's fabulous links.
To clarify, I have another vase bought a few months ago at the glass fair. I think I recall when I bought it that I was told it had been id'd as a 'test' or 'trial' for one of either the Flora or Karneval range and designed by Frantisek Koudelka but never put into production. I thought I remembered Karneval, but I am now thinking perhaps Flora particularly since there is a splodge of yellow in the large vase as well. I can't find my notes at the moment annoyingly, but I believe I recall the sellers said Mark Hill had id'd it. And I have seen this vase (or one the same as it) in the display pictures of the Hi Sklo Lo Sklo exhibition (scroll down to picture 4 down on the link), set with other Prachen vases.
http://markhillpublishing.co.uk/?page_id=842
Having now bought this large vase and setting them both together, I am pretty much certain that they are the same range, designer, maker. Hence my reference to Prachen and Frantisek Koudelka. For reference, the pontil marks are also finished in the same way, ground and smooth and polished, but not shiny.
pics below -
thanks again for replying, it is appreciated.
m
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this is what made me think it must be Flora I was thinking of
if you enlarge the first picture in this thread to see the closeup of the decor
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22373.msg126214.html#msg126214
m
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aha - see on link to Czech Glas Revue May 1974 - so 74-5 pages 19,20 and 21. My original vase shape is clearly on page 19 but not in the same colour way. I will continue to search to see if I can find a reference to the large glass vase now. But I feel 99.99% certain it is the same decor, range and designer.
link here
http://picasaweb.google.com/Jindra8526/Glasrevue19745?authkey=Gv1sRgCMbU2NLb3emcdQ#
m
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There is a good match for your small vase there, that you have just posted. It looks like a good attribution.
Apart from a shape match to a known Koudelka design, the small vase has a visibly clear base which a lot of Prachen vase ranges did at this time, the tall vase does not seem to have this. The taller vase still seems slightly different to me in shape and colourway... I would doubt it was part of this range myself.. The shape suggests to me a slightly more old fashioned type of design to me not fitting with the rest of the range exactly... that is all. Good luck on pinning it down...
Robert (bOBA)
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thanks Robert :) The large vase does have a clear cased base/foot as well, it was difficult to show it in the photo side on as it is so large and also the red reflects madly in the base. It is not as deep as the smaller vase but is certainly clear cased.
I shall keep looking - I do love a mystery ;D
m
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I was searching for something else and came across this link to a vase that is a bad photo link online (scroll down to page 98) but bears some marked similarities to my large floor vase (new pic added below)
The one online looks greener but that is what my vase looks like. The linked one is also a very large piece.
Millers- Art Deco - the one linked to is WMF Geislingen.
Any thoughts - I think they look very similar.
m
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zxxw0K79dpUC&pg=PA6&dq=collector's+guide+art+deco+miller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m7uNT53uBInV8gPa9ZSnCw&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=collector's%20guide%20art%20deco%20miller&f=false
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better lit picture of mine.
I think their green is either slightly different of it's been enhanced for the book maybe. You can see the ribbed vertical lines of the green where it's been blown into a mould on theirs as well as mine.
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31709.0.html
see thread above for further information.
thank you
m
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200681101111+&item=200681101111&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
the linked vase above is the same decor and colours as mine and is signed SCHNEIDER.
m
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The decors do match very well, can't make out the etched mark, as I don't know what it should look like will just have to take the sellers word for that.
Examples here: http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/markssatosj.html
John
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The etched mark is SCHNEIDER in capitals. It is the same as the photographed capital sig that is the first capital sig you come to on the link you gave. It is the same decor I am this time absolutely certain (as with the vase I linked to from Millers Art Deco which is also the same decor). The sellers feedback is very good, they have one neg which seems to be a buyer who didn't pay. They look as though they sell high end antiques not glass specifically. And of course it isn't 'cameo' glass at all. I will email them and ask for a close up of the signature.
I've added a pic of mine on black background for decor comparison. It's the best I can do to light it the same as theirs, because it is so large to light. Mine looks a slightly 'grassier' green in my photo but honestly it is the same colour as theirs, and when you zoom in on their closeup of the turned over neck you can see the same little black bits in the green as in mine. It's a cert for the same decor and maker.
m
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http://www.libertys.com/glass.htm
other examples of signatures for future reference.
m
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This one is signed in exactly the same place, right on the edge of the foot and seems to be the same kind of signature.
http://fineart.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=5104&lotIdNo=11019
The sig on the vase I linked to looks right to me having checked out his two pictures including the one that's upside down, but I haven't had a response from the vendor on my picture request for more pics.
And I have to say, if you were going to fake a sig, it's the hardest place to put it, right on the edge of a shallow curved foot.
I still haven't been able to match the vases.
m
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Sorry I've been switching between threads and I've now asked for the title for this to be changed.
So far I've found the same decor vase as my original large vase on this thread, on
1) a vase id'd and signed as Schneider
but also
2) on this link id'd as WMF Ikora - (but there has been a query,on another thread that I posted the link on originally, over whether this Ikora id is correct)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zxxw0K79dpUC&pg=PA6&dq=collector's+guide+art+deco+miller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m7uNT53uBInV8gPa9ZSnCw&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=collector's%20guide%20art%20deco%20miller&f=false
I've got the book that id's this decor as Ikora out of the library, and that book was produced in 2005. The WMF Ikora & Myra Glaser (Burschel/Scheiffele) was produced in 2003. I appreciate that misidentifications can and do happen, but it's curious that a book, produced two years after the WMF 'bible', id's a vase as WMF yet it isn't in the WMF book.
With reference the Schneider signature on the linked vase, it looks ok to me, however all the sigs on the links showing the variety, show that the sigs in capitals have an underline under them.
m
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I'm still trying to work out whether or not an id in this book 'Art Deco' by Judith Miller published by DK Collector's Guides is correct - with reference the vase with the same decor as my vase but on a different shape, has been id'd as 'made by W.M.F. of Geislingen (if you have the book see page 98 vase bottom right hand corner). This can't be found in the WMF book (Burschel and Scheiffele).
In the meantime browsing through the Art Deco Judith Miller book, I came across a footed bowl id'd as 'from the Myra-Kristall range made by WMF' (page 79). It is flame red colour with a stylised pattern on it and is described as ' This example has a stylised pine cone and leaf pattern etched in red glass with iridescent yellow flashes'. I can't find it in the WMF book and I thought the Myra-Kristall range was an iridescent range with plain surfaces... however... there are similar in the WMF book but they are named as Myra-Technik Unikat Decor.
So I'm just wondering if the vase with the same decor as mine might be from a 'Ikora' type Unikat set maybe? I say 'set' because whilst all the shapes are different I have now found 3 in the same decor.
m
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I wouldn't worry about it. It is not as if all attributions in these books are accurate and double checked - just stick to what can be proven from reliable sources such as the Burschel book.
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I'm not worried about it Ivo :) I'd just like to identify my vase.
And that book says it is WMF.
And it also has a bowl in there that does look like it is a Myra-Technik Unikat piece, that isn't in the Burschel book. Which of course means the Burschel book may not be 'complete' and it's likely that there may be more Unikat pieces that are not in the Burschel book. I can't imagine they have managed to cover every single piece (not that I ever imagine that any book would be 'complete' of course).
So the Burschel book may feature pieces that are all correctly id'd, but possibly doesn't feature all the pieces.
I do appreciate however, that none of the three shapes found so far with this decor, are found in the book.
And I probably wouldn't be worrying away at this one, if I honestly felt there was no way it could be a WMF piece, but I can't discount that completely :)
m
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This yellow vase with green splotches looks similar although not the same background as mine has vertical stripes in it, to my green with red vase.
Can anyone help? anyone recognise it?
It's listed as Monart which I'm pretty sure it isn't.
thanks for looking.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/batemans-auctioneers-and-valuers/catalogue-id-2852317/lot-14784922
m
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Definitely not Monart!
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No, but what is it? ... these are gorgeous pieces of glass, surely someone has seen one somewhere else.
I 'think' that looks like the same maker as mine, although there are differences. And having seen it now in the yellow and green I feel more sure that it is neither Schneider nor Ikora. I feel it is Czechoslovakian.
They are beautifully made and I'm pretty sure they are original Deco pieces.
I want that vase! but they want loads to post it to me :'(
m
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Just reviving this topic....again ::)
the vase I linked to on ebay has disappeared but it has been relisted
link here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/french-cameo-glass-art-deco-vase-schneider-mushroom-red-green-france-paris-/200681101111?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item2eb9869737
The signature is a stamped acid mark SCHNEIDER and it looks ok to me, but I have to say I've not seen another in the flesh so that's not saying much.
I'm attaching the good picture of my vase again here.
In the meantime I've found this vase at Valerio Art Deco site which is similarly 'splashy'.
http://www.valerioartdeco.com/charles+schneider+vase+c3565/
Not the same colours but a similar ish effect. Unfortunately there's no close up of the decor but thoughts on similarity to mine and the linked one on ebay would be appreciated. Is it way off, or is there a likeness... or is it just me? Admittedly the similarities are vague I think but ....
m
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It would be great if this solved the issue - but I'm afraid I just worked through the Schneider catalogue and all the model drawings - and neither the ringed vase nor the ebay one with the drooping rim is apparent. I cannot see the signature, but this should be sandblasted or engraved.
Charles did some weird and wonderful things - and he may well have been capable of designing the piece in question. Just didn't make it to the catalogue...
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thank you so much Ivo :)
I think the signature is engraved or incised onto the base rim of the vase. Mine has none though.
Thanks for taking the time to go through the books. I think given you have not found either the decor or the shapes of the two of them in there and there are not enough similarities with what I have found to make it a credible possible, I will give up on the Schneider angle now.
m
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Ivo, can you take a look at the WMF book please if you have time?
page 138, bowls at the bottom, the left hand one particularly looks to have 'flame' effect splotches similar to my vase (pics are in black and white so difficult to tell) and the colours for those bowls are described as orange-grun 4089 - just wondering what you think as to a possible?
and also page 132 top row 53/376 - those spotches look familiar ... or is it just me?
I know this is an outside shot because of the shapes I've found as well as the green on them ... but just wondering ;D
thanks
m
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As far as I can see the red/green of the Ikora pieces are splotched against a clear background and not red splotches on a solid green background. I also miss the shape. Not saying it isn't - and not saying it is.
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Thank you - much appreciated :)
m
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ok while I'm on a roll ;D
I found this sold via Quittenbaum 2005
WMF, Geislingen. 'Ikora'-bowl, 1940s. H. 14 cm; Dm
It is a large bowl shaped vase but with the turned over roll rim and a small foot , bears shape similarities with the green splotch red vase I linked to apparently signed Schneider
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1266858
Is it definitely Ikora?
the vase I linked to with a Schneider signature is here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/french-cameo-glass-art-deco-vase-schneider-mushroom-red-green-france-paris-/200681101111?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item2eb9869737
m
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I think the bowl´s definitely Ikora - if you e.g. look at the white crizzle effect. The colour
scheme´s not too unusual either, although the turned-over rim is something I wouldn´t
necessarily associate with Ikora. I couldn´t find this shape in the book, so it may be a
test piece or have been made after work.
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Thanks Dirk :)
well, what we have so far is:
- a vase id'd in Miller's as WMF Geislingen (same decor and colour vase as mine, different shape but same spirit) in 2005, and that Miller's vase had been sold on VZeschwitz in 2005 at auction attributed to WMF Geislingen.
- a WMF Ikora vase in red with a more traditional Ikora decor and colour but with a wide turned over rim in a very similar vein to
a vase that is the same colour and decor as mine, but different shape and with turned over rim, but marked with an etched capitals SCHNEIDER mark on the foot edge rim and with a mark that is difficult to see, but looks as though it is right from what can be seen.
I'm really not trying to make mine either of these attributions - but what I would add to the above is-
For:
- In a similar vein to Ikora, mine has a decor in vertical lines in the green background which Ikora were fond of using
- Weight and thickness of glass seems right for WMF bearing in mind I am comparing a massive 14 tall vase with one that is approx 10 inches so there will be some variation I suppose.
- The pontil mark is the same as some I have seen on WMF pieces, ground smoothly but not polished
- And now one the same as mine has been found that has an unusual turned over rim that is the same as an Ikora vase (again unusual for WMF Ikora)
Against:
-One has been found with a marking 'SCHNEIDER' on it, in the correct place and looks as though it is a genuine mark although it's difficult to see it clearly because of the decor of the vase and the pics (right on the edge of the foot rim)
- I can't find the shapes in the WMF books, and although the decor is a possible, I can't be sure on the colours
- I secretly think mine might be Czech because I feel sure my Frantisek Koudelka for Prachen vase was somewhat inspired by it somehow
- I also think though I can't be sure, that the thickness of the glass etc could maybe have been a maker such as Hantich (maker of the Johnolyth vases) for example
I'm not convinced either way at the moment, although if pushed I would lean towards not WMF and not Schneider
m
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Sorry for playing the devil´s advocate again, but I´d like to cross out the pontil mark from
the ´for´-list. From my experience there isn´t such a thing like the typical Ikora base
treatment. I´ve had snapped-off pontil mark, slightly fire-polished, ground and polished
pontil mark, additionally ground base, base completely ground, ground and polished base
with roughly ground pontil scar...
(hope you still like me) ;D
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yes, I agree - all I was saying is that the pontil mark being smoothly ground and not polished cannot rule out it being from WMF as that type of pontil mark has been seen on some of their pieces :)
Yes I still like you ;D
And I don't think this is a WMF piece :) but feel I have to keep exploring the option just in case.
m
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Now I can agree with your 1st statement, be relieved with your 2nd and go to sleep
with your 3rd... ;D ;)
Need to get up in t-5h....
(Dirk wants back the hug-emoticon)
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Vase with rolled turn over rim here signed Le Verre Francais - (a Schneider mark)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230963657858?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
It's not the same shape as the previous one I linked to and I suppose all it proves is that the rolled turned over rim is a design device used in the 30s :)
I'm still on the case - the maker has to be out there somewhere ;D
I'm certain they date to the 30s or thereabouts, because of the shapes and that there is signficant wear on the base of my vase and of the other one with the same decor.
It's possible the maker was Kralik perhaps or someone like Hantich (the type of glass and size and weight is similar to Johnolyth vases).
But the design of the vase and the way the green has vertical stripes and then with the flame splotches at the base and going up, reminds me very much of Welz designs. However...the thickness of the glass, the type of glass, the size, etc is nothing like any Welz glass I have seen.
Just for interest there is an example photograph here in the last picture, of some Loetz 1930s shaped vases
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/41794-loetz-ausfhrung-c-wave-optic-variant
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And I´m a fan of your persistency. :-*
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;D thank you
m
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another green and red vase, different shape, also signed ... Schneider.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/105061
Two find one, signed Schneider, that is the same colours and technique but different shape (the one with the turned over rim) being sold in the US, and query it is one thing. But to find another a different shape, same colours, slightly different technique in the way the colours have been laid on, also signed Schneider is too much of a coincidence. Anyone else agree?
m
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'To' find one :-[ not 'two' find one.
m
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Mmh, undecided... I think the Schneider vases´ decor is a bit different to the one on the vases this
thread started with.
Hence I think we´re still on the look-out for a maker... :-\
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yes, thanks Dirk, my gut is agreeing with you - too much wishful thinking on my part ::) and not enough exact match ;D
The thing about this vase is that I display it with my WMF Ikora pieces and it sits perfectly ;)
Whether or not it turns out to be WMF, that is where it feels at home.
m
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Where would we be if everything was signed and determinable. We´d just google and never have met... ;)
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exactly :D but sometimes it would be nice to find an id for my own pieces ;D
m
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magnificent-Large-Schneider-Art-Glass-Vase-/331372234017?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item4d27530521
back to that vase again - the foot where you can enlarge and see a close up is remarkably similar to my vase ... really remarkably similar.
The way the red and green colours are laid on, the actual colours used i.e. the orangy red and red with black outline etc. Very similar indeedy. So two signed Schneider vases in that colourway as I said. Look at the bottom of the stem from the foot up ...
m
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The mystery continues......
I saw that vase you linked to on ebay and my initial thought was it looked like a Czech piece done in a Schneider shape, (like the probably Czech Monart shapes) but I have no idea if the signature is genuine, but it is the second signed one.
Can anyone confirm the signature?
Sorry ,this is no help at all!
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Just has another look and I don't think the way the colour "splotches" in the Schneider and your vase are done in the same way, yours are more "rounded" splotches whereas the Schneider ones are more "jagged" (a bit like some of the Monart).
I do see the similarities with the Prachen stuff, even if its not, I feel it's from the same sort of area (but i don't actually know!!) :D
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Edited - I'm sure that's a Koudelka vase for Prachen
m
Is this the same decor as mine?
Apparently Hanna Hellum Randsfjordglas. It actually reminds me of my Prachen vase. hmmm. It's more similar to my Prachen Koudelka vase. Thinking about it, it might be wrongly identified? Anyway, pics for comparison.
https://www.epla.no/samler/produkter/1060146/
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37744.0;attach=62459;image
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Still chasing an identification for my vase ;D
Oddly I came across the one that I do believe is the same maker as mine (the one with the SCHNEIDER mark around the edge of the foot in capitals) again. It's linked here:
http://ancientpoint.com/inf/93475-french_cameo_glass_art_deco_vase_schneider_mushroom_red_green_france_paris.html
I'm very certain that is the same maker as my vase, whichever maker that turns out to be.
I believe it's the same decor and colourway.
It has a substantial amount of what looks to me to be natural wear on the base so, whilst they are heavy admittedly, I think they are old i.e. 1920s or 30s probably.
Has anyone come across the shape of mine anywhere, or the shape of the other which is also quite distinctive, on recent travels?
m
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That mushroom shape is distinctive, sooner or later another will crop up I expect.
John
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I hope ;D I've been looking into this vase for 12 ? years now. I've had a look through Ernst Steinwald info because it felt to me as though that might be the lead. The best comparison is with this large pink vase on the Bohemian glass website but that gives me hope :)
It's internally decorated, the base seems similar and the rim is firepolished, so it looks to have been created in a similar way to mine. That's all I've come up with in so many years.
https://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/vaza-vz-101-5388/detail/
oh and these as well:
https://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/vaza-vz-77-4795/detail/
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Craig believes the vase in your first link is Kralik rather than Steinwald, given how the Steinwald attributions came about with the rebinding of paperwork I think he has very justifiable doubt. Just ran into that again while looking for Hantich info here on the board - because of the vase in your second link.
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I also thought that pink vase was Kralik but assumed, since it seemed to now be on that website as Steinwald, that something might have changed in identification. Ok, so good to know Craig still thinks it's a Kralik vase.
I think really early on I thought my vase might be Kralik - pretty sure Craig mentioned it somewhere on the thread as well. Off to have another read through this thread.
m
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...
- I secretly think mine might be Czech because I feel sure my Frantisek Koudelka for Prachen vase was somewhat inspired by it somehow
- I also think though I can't be sure, that the thickness of the glass etc could maybe have been a maker such as Hantich (maker of the Johnolyth vases) for example
...
m
Oh I mentioned I thought it might be Kralik way back in 2012 on the other thread of this vase:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31709.msg265241.html#msg265241
hmmm, still in the same place 10 years later ;D
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I hope ;D I've been looking into this vase for 12 ? years now. I've had a look through Ernst Steinwald info because it felt to me as though that might be the lead. The best comparison is with this large pink vase on the Bohemian glass website but that gives me hope :)
It's internally decorated, the base seems similar and the rim is firepolished, so it looks to have been created in a similar way to mine. That's all I've come up with in so many years.
https://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/vaza-vz-101-5388/detail/
oh and these as well:
https://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/vaza-vz-77-4795/detail/
This is another decor of the same shape as the pink one I think. Just adding in case it becomes useful to me in future:
https://scottishantiques.com/20th-century-glass/art-deco?product_id=21502
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12 long years - still searching.
This one is a similar decor, but addition of crackle which is interesting, and acid etched signature on the base - 'Degue'
https://www.selency.co.uk/product/K8XZTJ38/vase-degue-1.html
Close up of it here:
https://images.selency.com/a9ccaad8-d553-4fa4-b12a-2ec4cf6eaf25/vase-degue-1_original.png?bg_color=FFF&bg=FFF&fit=fill&func=fit&auto=format%2Ccompress&h=1360&meta_format=product_zoom_image&fm=jpg
Mine here in link:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37744.0;attach=100005;image