Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on March 18, 2012, 06:36:42 PM
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Can anyone help with this please? I have not a clue. It's quite lightweight, handblown, hand applied spiral trail for the foot which is hollow up to the stem, hand applied notched trail around the 'neck' and has random ish raspberry prunts on the stem. The bowl is shorter than a hock glass bowl and wider. Pretty thing measuring 9cm tall, bowl about 7.5cm widest and the hollow foot is 5.6cm diameter at the base. The rim is cut bevelled both sides and polished. It's rather beautifully made.
I have seen similar id'd as Koln Ehrenfeld however I'm curious about reproductions?
Thanks for looking and any help much appreciated.
m
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I think this is an older piece, I don't think it is recent. It looks very similar to a romer called a Thusnelda romer from Koeln Ehrenfeld, except that the notched trail around the neck of mine is similar to a decorative device used by Theresienthal. On the Koeln Ehrenfeld Thusnelda romer, instead of the notched trail it has a waved rigaree around the neck. Does anyone know if they also used a notched trail - or is that something peculiar to Theresienthal?
By the way, the bowl is hollow all the way down the stem to where it joins the trailed foot.
thanks
m
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I have seen a catalogue page from Altmann in Munich circa 1880 where replcations of each and evry variant of these were listed. Producd in northern Bavaria or in Cologne Ehrenfeld and who knows where else. Modern replicas made at Kralovice Hut or by Bon in Murano are most convincing and not always signed - and there is also a small glassworks in Sweden doing similar work. But the most likely is Theresinthhal who have been producing this type of rummers for the longest time and the max number of variants.
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Thank you Ivo. It's difficult isn't it. It 'feels' old but I know that some reproductions (recent) are incredibly good. I realise you mean late 19th is also reproduction of much earlier glass.
It seems that Theresienthal used this particular handtrailed notched device if what I read is true.
There is a lovely site called Steveonsteins as well as Stepan's fantastic Theresienthal site, both of which I somehow seem to refer to a lot as they have great enamelled glass on as well. I'll keep searching the Theresienthal reference for now but have a look at your other suggestions as well - thanks :)
links for others future reference -
http://www.steveonsteins.com/
http://www.roemer-aus-theresienthal.de/index.html
m
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Are you sure the trail is hand-applied or even a trail? It looks very even. Machine applied or moulded spring to mind. What is the foot rim like?
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Well as far as I can see it is all handblown and handtrailed, definitely not mould blown at all. It's very finely made, delicate. But that is no different to the hock glasses I have which are Koln Ehrenfeld, they are also beautifully made.
The spiral for the notched trail is also hand applied and you can see where both trails start and end, the spiral trail peters out at the base of the foot. The foot rim is fine, thin and delicate. the bowl of the glass is hollow all the way down and the spiral foot is applied to the bowl where it narrows at the bottom of the stem. It's a two piece glass.I will add some more pics once I have uploaded them.
thanks for looking :)
m
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more pics (see post above as well :) )
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last one
romer base/foot
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I still think it's machine threaded; machine threading has been around since 1870 when Hodgetts patented it. Hand threading has wider, less even spacing and less even threads.
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mm your comments posed an interesting question for me. This is not trailed 'onto' anything, the foot is completely made from a tapering 'coil' or 'spiral' of wound glass, i.e the inside of the foot is ribbed as is the outside as it is a bit like if you rolled plastercine into a long sausage and then wound it round and round getting wider and wider as it were.
I think it is hand done still :P
But ....I am open to correction ;D
m
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You can't really treat glass like clay. It might be possible to create something by hand by lampworking, but that requires a different sort of glass and is too labour intensive. It would also come out less even. If it's spiral on the inside too then it's moulded. There is no reason why you shouldn't have a beginning and an end moulded in. I'll check my roemers when I get home.
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ok I see! thanks :) Just for the record though, it has no mould lines but I guess there wouldn't be with the cone shape?
It's similar to this one here, but the foot is not splayed at the bottom and mine only has one notched trail. But then mine is smaller I guess so perhaps that accounts for the slight difference in design? not sure :-\
this one is apparently identical to one slightly larger and which is id'd as form 490/II 13.3cm high (mine is only 9cm high)
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Theresienthal-Romer-grunstichiges-Glas-Uranglas-um-1900-/120878783203?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item1c24efdae3
Will keep looking and thanks for checking yours.
m
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Hello,
just my two cents:
Don`t attribute this roemer to Theresienthal. In my opinion it is not the coulour of glass they used to work with. It looks like a roemer from the Rheinische Glashütten AG Köln-Ehrenfeld but to make an attribution without holding this item in my hands would not be more than a guess. An educated guess perhaps but still a guess.
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Stephan thank you for looking in and your observations which are much appreciated :) I have a set of Koln Ehrenfeld glasses but the colour is very different - I have attached two pictures to show the comparison as best I can.
The difference I can see is that the rim of the romer is cut, bevelled both sides and polished, which seems strange to me. It's incredibly smooth and beautifully done, but weird to have the rim of a glass like that not firepolished? The hock glasses are firepolished as far as I can see. Both types are incredibly fine, delicate glass.
I shall do some more searching on Koln Ehrenfeld and RG and see what I can find. Thank you.
m
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:o don't ask me how I found this...I just clicked on a link from something and there it was
in a gallery in the Czech Republic I think.
Is this what mine is possibly?
Name: Thewalt from Rheinische Glashutten AG Koln Ehrenfeld date 1886
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09434/A52B6CBD91E192715A8F9506455FE945928B33DB.html?start=10
m
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I have found a museum catalogue reference that I think says this design is
Ausfuhrung 1892 in 'Helles gelbrgunes glas' (the 'u' should have a double dot on the top) - translates as 'bright yellow-green glass' - Koln Ehrenfeld 1886
m
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Sorry I should have added this earlier, both the reference matches the size of my romer/roemer of 9cm in height.
So I do think that unless someone has been reproducing this romer, then this is a match to mine.
m
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and I presume the ones I've linked to (and hopefully my piece) are late 19th c copies of this one
which is also 9cm
http://ancientglass.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/shallow-roemer-wald-glass/
m
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ok, there's been a resounding silence to my links ;D
so questions then -
1) Can I presume that so far as known, only Rheinische Glashutten AG Koln Erhenfeld were the maker of this Thewalt roemer ?
2) The Thewalt roemer is a 19th c reproduction of a much earlier roemer?
3) If that is the supposed case, would my roemer either be, a) an original much earlier one like the one I linked to on the Wordpress site - unlikely I know but I'm just trying to cross off possibles :)
or b) a Rheinische Glashutten AG Koln Ehrenfeld Thewalt roemer dated 1886
3) If not, is it likely that mine could be a much more recent i,e. late 20th. early 21st century reproduction of the 17th c. piece?
4) or are we down to no way of knowing unless I show it physically to someone now?
I have found with great difficulty, a) a number of 'reproduction' roemers, but unfortunately I was not sure whether they were 19th c classed as 'reproduction 17thc' roemers, or more recently produced. None of which were like mine so nothing further on what I already have.
And b) an American site selling newly reproduced reproduction roemers, again none the same as mine so nothing further on that.
m
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Posting these for comparison..... I have these two pieces. Originally I had 4 which were all slightly different. They were purchased at an auction many years ago and came out of a high end estate. They had with them, which I still have somewhere, an original bill of sale for the 4 from a European dealer indicating that they were quite early Roemers ca. late 16th or early 17th century. They were purchased in the 50's according to the receipt. The glass on them does look rather early and the production of them is not what I would refer to as refined..... I sold 2 of them over the years and have hung on to these two. They are quite light as far as the weight goes.... Never really knew if they were really that old or not.... I was about the only one at the auction with an interest in them so they came pretty cheap....
Craig
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Craig thanks, do either of them have a cut and polished rim? or are they both firepolished - just interested to know. I'm curious about the rim of mine. And the foot of the one on the right in the pic...can you feel the rings inside the foot or is it trailed onto a smooth interior if you see what I mean. It looks different to the one on the left which looks as though it may have been hand trailed?
Just to add - I'm not under any misconception that mine is a 16th/17th c piece, I'm just curious about the differences similarities and trying to work out whether mine is 19thc or made last week in Sweden ;D
m
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Hi Miranda, The one on the right is ribbed on the interior of the foot the same as on the exterior...... Kind of like it was a long coil that was laid into a mold one turn at a time..... if that makes any sense.... Both have a fire polished rim and both have a rough pontil mark up inside the foot. The one on the left is a little textured on the interior, but more just irregularity in the glass from production than any pattern that follows the trailings. The thickness of the glass in the bowl is quite different in the two. Hope this helps.....
I do not know if mine are that old for sure or not... Just what the old paperwork with them said when I bought them..... They are really fascinating pieces......
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Thanks :) The rims are both different to mine but it sounds as though the foot of yours on the right must be mould made like mine.
m
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I was in the Rijksmuseum yesterday (a much reduced, during their seemingly lengthy renovations as I'm sure it was closed when I was there a few years ago, but still fabulous collection :) ) and saw similar to these reproductions in their shop, posted on my link below
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/webwinkel/search.jsp?query=roemer&lang=nl
There were no reproductions the same shape or size as my 'Thewalt' roemer (a 17th century original of which is in the Rijksmuseum collection) and they were a different construction to my roemer. The pontil mark or join mark at the top of the hollow trumpet foot was different and the rims of all the ones I saw were firepolished.
m
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I came across this article whilst searching for something else and it mentions how the open hollow foot of the roemers was made
the article is on the link below and within it it says
Quote 'They consisted of a Foot made of a glass thread which was spun around a wooden form, and a hollow shaft which extended to the roundish or ovoid bowl.'
http://www.barclayglassgallery.blogspot.co.uk/
m
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Interesting article. A little insight into the techniques used to make them..... Thanks for posting it....
Craig
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my links have gone but I came across this Thewalt-Römer again looking for some info on Dirk's roemer
http://www.bv-4.de/index.html?/historie_industrie_glas.html
Looking at other similar Roemers and the way they are made (Thusnelda), I think this Thewalt-Römer is the correct id for mine:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166503_6-thusnelda-roemer-koeln-ehrenfeld-glass-rummers
http://www.glaswolf.de/Roemer_THUSNELDA_Koe.210+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMTAmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE1NjQmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MjEwJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
m