Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ohio on March 22, 2012, 06:26:29 PM
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Picked this up today & I not certain if I've ever seen such decorating skills. 11 1/2" height, 4 1/2" diameter, 3/8" thick glass (suprisingly heavy at 3 lbs.) appears to have each & every square millimeter covered by gold, enameling, beading, etc. Just a few numbers on the bottom. Thinking maybe Harrach, but am asking for opinions. Thanks, Ken
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Hi, these have been on the board before. I have one similar also marked. In Truitts I think they mention Southern Bohemia, but I have read since that thinking has changed and that they may be English decorated by French Immigrant decorators who settled in the Midlands last century. I'll try and find the thread for you and link it. They are exquisitely done aren't they?
m
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See a lot of these on ebay,usually described as Webbs,I thought they were Bohemian hadn't heard of the possible Midland connection ::) ;D ;D
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Well M guess what? After I bought this & had them set it aside an art glass dealer (major league guy) from the Boston area who makes a pass through here every month hunted me down (I was still going through the house) & we got into a discussion. He said he was certain these were to now attributed to Webb using outside decorating staff or at least that was what he had read. Have to admit that I said Webb?...looks Bohemian to me like Harrach not Webb, but thats what he had read somewhere. Course he wanted to buy it from me, but I politely declined. Ken
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Thanks Keith for the eBay tip...found one with close to the same pattern only smaller...they are calling it Morocco pattern. Don't know if its accurate info or not, but at least I found one.
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Yours is a particularly nice one, but Webb is unlikely really.
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I'm going to get this wrong now, but from memory I 'think' they were attributed to Webb a few years ago in an Antique journal or catalogue of some sort that I 'think' is published in the States. Hence I believe, why they are listed as Webb's Moroccan or Webb's Tapestry or Webb's Persian.... I have seen various attributions. I read the information about the French settled decorators on the Great Glass site and I've also read they are mid 19th Century. I don't really know what to think. They are mould blown and cut from the rim or at least mine are. The rim is polished and was gilded or painted. But the enamelling is exquisitely done, intricate and very beautiful.
m
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Link to vases on Great Glass site where there is an explanation better than mine :) Scroll down for the vases to appear - On the lower vase they ask a rhetorical question about whether the number is the year the vase was made, but I have recently seen one that was numbered something like 5643 or similar indicating that it can't have been the year produced.
m
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/shops/shop1-1.htm
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That is quite exquisite Ken! I can't offer any thoughts on where it was made / decorated other than to say the 7 in the number appears to have a cross bar on it, which would not normally indicate British production as we generally use an uncrossed 7 here - but if done by continental workers in the UK I suppose it could do.
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Thanks everyone for the input, its appreciated. Not that important for a solid attribution as I bought it because of an appreciation of the skill involved in such fine craftmanship that is fairly difficult to find in this day & age. Ken
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNIFICENT-QUALITY-GLASS-VASE-VERY-BEAUTIFUL-ENAMEL-DECORATION-SIGNED-/160715459202?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item256b634a82
This one is on ebay at the moment and actually has a signature. Does anyone recognise the decorator or decorating house from the signature. It's very similar to the one on the thread and also very similar to one I used to have in terms of the quality of the decoration and pattern used but size wise it's a big piece 11" high!
m
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M I pulled mine out of the cabinet & its very, very close to being a virtual twin, mine is only 1/2" taller. Hopefully someone will recognize the mark. Ken
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Yes they seem to have many similarities.
Hopefully someone will have an idea of who, or at least which country they originate from :)
m
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Been looking around re the signature on the ebay vase and came across Anton Ambros Egermann a glass enameller who worked for Novy Bor and Lobmeyr in the late 19th century,could this be him?
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Some of these decorated pieces use Harrach blanks. I have one with the Harrach fan mark (first shown), but it also has a decorator mark. It has a daisy in a central diamond. I have 3 other examples with the letter U followed by a four digit number which is also considered a Harrach designation. They all start with 17 and two other numbers. All of them are different shapes, but all have a central three-pronged cross in the center diamond. The Truitts show some larger examples in their book where the design doesn't have these central diamonds, saying they are from southern Bohemia. I have two more examples of these types--they are larger with much thicker glass. The bases are flat with no markings. The flower bands are very different, too--the flowers are crude outlines rather than full flower forms. It seems evident to me that there were multiple makers of these pieces. Here in the U.S., they are always called Webb Moroccan. One book mentioned that the Webb pieces have a square top, but I have never seen an example that has been positively linked to Webb. I'd love to see a known example of the Webb Moroccan decor.
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Sorry to seem to be questioning :) but do you mean your top vase has a Harrach propellor or feathers mark on it? I didn't know it was called a fan mark.
And
Is a letter U followed by a 4 digit number known to be a Harrach marker?
Just checking as these things get set in stone sometimes, a little like these vases suddenly becoming Webb's - perhaps the person who started that had seen one with a propellor mark on the base in the days the propellor mark was being construed as a Webb mark :)
Many thanks
m
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An American construction--the propeller mark also looks the same as the three blades of an electric fan--thus the term "fan mark." It's just a description of what the mark looks like, but whatever the term used, it is a part of the Harrach coat of arms. The U followed by the four numbers is a Harrach designation according to Brian Severn's Harrach project. Brian told me he had seen Moroccan decors in the Harrach design books and had me send me pictures of all my examples as part of the effort to unravel the design numbers. However, most of the examples of this decor that I have seen do not have any markings on the base, and do not have the cross or flower inside a center diamond that seem to be found consistently on the Harrach pieces. At least so far...I am tracking all the examples I can find in my own little "Moroccan decor" project. Manley references a Webb sketch book of 1879 but I have no idea whether the sketch really shows the same decor, which is described as alabaster-cored, with square top and enameled. My quest is to find some square-topped examples and see if they differ in some respect--markings, thickness, design, or whatever. It would be enormously helpful if one of you folks in the UK was able to take a look at the Webb sketch book of 1879 that Manley references. Thanks much, Cathy
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thanks :)
I don't know where the Webb sketchbook is but there are Webb patterns at the Broadfield House museum I believe, so it might be worth contacting them perhaps?
I had a couple of pieces which I've now sold. I'll try and find pics for you.
m
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All pics most welcome, thanks!
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Another one,just found,no marks and only around 5 inches high, ;D ;D
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I have been wondering for a long while whether or not these could be Turkish. Or something other than Bohemian - the propellor mark on the one earlier in the thread threw my thinking off slightly, but the thought has remained.
Today I spotted this one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Small-Beaded-Decorated-Moroccan-Black-Webb-Art-Enameled-Glass-Floral-Bud-Vase-/111264742114?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item19e7e53ae2
that lime green colour is a colour I've seen in glass I think attributed as Beykoz or at the least Turkish glass (dredging memory here) It's something that always strikes me as a quite individual colour whenever I see it, and the glass never looks Bohemian to me - something about the shapes, or the colours or whatever.
So... could these be Turkish maybe?
edited - mm, that colour is more yellow than the limey green I'm thinking of so perhaps not.
Just for reference though, here is a collection of Beykoz opaline sold through Christie's - they use a lot of floral decoration and black outlines
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/nine-beykoz-white-and-turquoise-blue-opaline-ewers-5723121-details.aspx
m
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Two more for reference.
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It is possible, that this vase (see link) is where the misattribution to Webb came in
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/enameled-japonisme-vase?page=7&query=cameo&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=222
It has some similarities in shape and opaline decorated glass, and even the patterns if you like (but none in technique and execution of enamels to my eye)
m
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M, I am not convinced that the vase in the link to the Corning Museum item would be the source of a misattribution to Webb! And I am also not convinced that all items with the generic "Moroccan" (or whatever) decoration style which are suggested as "Webb" are misattributed.
In Post 16 above (please see for full context), Cathy said: Manley references a Webb sketch book of 1879 but I have no idea whether the sketch really shows the same decor, which is described as alabaster-cored, with square top and enameled.
For completeness, and as food for thought as to whether Manley may have been the source for the Webb attribution, the following is the full text from page 75, Item 185 in Manley's Decorative Victorian Glass, published 1981:
A vase for identification, most deceptive. The first impression is obviously French, but Thomas Webb's records (sketch-book of 1879) describe them as alabaster-cored, with square top and enamelled, and it is only when a number are placed alongside each other that this is realized, all differ in some way. 19.7 cm (7 3/4 inch) high.
There was also an earlier publication, Collectible Glass, Book 4, British Glass, copyright 1968, which was based on Cyril Manley's collection. That book covered many of the same items as shown in the later book but it did not include the "Item 185" from the latter. I mention this as it may be an indication that Manley secured the "Item 185" vase much closer to the preparation date of his later book. But it could also mean that it was simply not selected for the earlier book!
And on the subject of dates, I wonder whether the possible Turkish items are all very modern "copies" of the style and decoration. To my eyes, the colours and condition of the decoration seem much brighter than the few examples (Webb, Harrach or "other Bohemian") I have seen in books or illustrated elsewhere.
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Kev thanks. I don't have the Manley book but am now thinking I need to get it. It's hard to picture what item 185 might look like.
The Turkish possibility was just a thought really to throw into the mix.
Also, just because I'd forgotten, re-looking at Ken's vase which started this thread, all his black outline flowers in the panels are gilded as is the rim.
To me, they all look as though they are done in a similar vein, but some are more sophisticated than others. I do think the rose vase I've linked to belongs in the 'set' for example, but it was a much more 'sophisticated' piece in terms of execution of enamelling (but not in terms of the glass blank it was on if I recall) than the little bowling pin shaped vase I've added as the first one.
I've added pictures of the few I've had - I don't have them anymore but none looked new to me.
The first one I've linked to was done in a much less sophisticated way than the other two btw.
The bright one I linked to previously (not mine- yellow/greeny colour on it, on ebay) seemed to have a lot of wear around the rim so I'm not sure about the age of the brightly coloured ones. I guess pictures can be deceptive either way though and it makes it difficult to assess unfortunately.
m
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and this is one enamelled in a similar way and highly decorative but a different style of decoration.#
It has glittery stuff around the central rose - I mention is because it looks like the one John put on might also have this.
m
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A big difference between Ken's original vase and the rest seems to be condition - the gilding is still extant, there is little on the two vases I have here with just scattered fragments remaining.
Only one has the odd white-ish glittery stuff that m has spotted, using a loupe you can see it is bubbly, which gives the sparkly effect.
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oh yes. I can spot some gilding on the bubbly stuff round the rose now. Perhaps the bubbly stuff was some form of glue then to adhere the gilding to?
Kev, I know what you mean about the colours and condition comparisons (I think),but I think it is very difficult to make a judgement on the colours and condition of enamelling to be fair.
Enamelling on glass photographs extremely badly in my opinion. Photography highlights all sorts of flaws that occur in the firing of enamels, that you just don't see when the piece turns up in the hand. It also highlights the smallest little flake or piece of damage, that again, once you have the piece in hand, is incredibly difficult to spot. I have to say I have never been disappointed when I've received an enamelled piece of glass. Quite the opposite... it always looks much better in person than it did on the pics. I also have a three hundred year old piece of enamelled glass where the colours are superb and intact and the gilding is miraculously also still intact.
m
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It would give a bit of texture but it seems to be used sparingly, perhaps more for emphasis.
Going back to Ken's vase again, the same texture can be seen quite clearly in spots with gilding on, quite effective. It would look good in candle or lamplight.
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we cross posted John as I was adding to my post above :)
m
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My only piece,looks a bit familiar eh m ? ;D ;D
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yes :)
Kev, is the one you are referring to in Manley, the one that features on the front cover of the second book?
If so I can see what you mean about the muted colours, although the only pic I can find is a small indistinct one. I haven't got the book bu I was wondering if the colours look so muted because the gilding has worn to a brownish colour though?
m
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Yes, m, the front cover image shows the Item 185 square topped vase in Manley's book. However, the front cover image is darker than the actual Item 185 image, which may or may not be a bit too bright!!.
Looking at the Item 185 photo very closely, it is clear that the pale blue originally had an all over gilded floral style decoration which is very rubbed. Also, the full gilding for the background of the main decorative elements is what makes the whole thing look less colourful or more subdued (in my opinion).
I now think that there are several similarities with the items pictured in this thread:
a) The main blue colour is probably the same as in some of the other pieces
b) There is black bordering with white dots
c) There are curved, darker blue and green enamelled elements in the main decoration
d) The band of colour around the rim appears "washed out", which is what I feel about some of the colours in the other items
Whether all of the items discussed here are from the same period is, I think, open for debate. But the Manley item is very rubbed in a way that suggests "good age".
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Interesting and thanks - is it pictured any clearer in the book at all please?
m
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Sorry, m, please see my (edited) comments above, which were added while you posted yours.
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Thank you :)
Interesting observations, and I'm glad you've expanded on that - I didn't like to say anything on first looking at the cover pic of item 185, but as soon as I saw that vase, my instinct was it is from the same 'stable'/'region' as those on this thread.
I agree, the age of the items is up for debate and it could transpire that some could be older than others. I've also thought it could also be possible that these are all old, and that on the ones where the gilt has worn off cleanly they just look a lot brighter/cleaner than those that still have their gilding. But yes, definitely up for debate.
I found something else today. A blue opaline decanter with a tall spire type stopper. These type of items look quite 'Persian' and are often sold in pairs, some transparent red etc, all enamelled. I can see that the 'pattern' of decoration is different to those on this thread, but looking close up, the swirls, curls, all over etc, .... not much different in 'style' to these. And some of the pattern has similarities with the Beykoz vases as well to my eye.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magnificent-large-Bohemian-Opaline-hand-cut-glass-decanter-/201020189656?hash=item2ecdbcabd8&nma=true&si=l2MBzUYPY0OGjxE48GmpcUBq724%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I've still not got a clue where these decanters hail from though, although the many I've seen are sold as Bohemian.
So perhaps it's possible the one that Cathy posted that has the 'feathers' plume mark on it, maybe the crucial catalyst?
With regards the ones that just have a letter plus some numbers marked in black on them - I honestly don't know if that is a Harrach 'marker' or not.
The reason I say that is I've found a Richardson's vase, marked Richardson, but also marked with a P then three digits. The P is written in the same way as the 'P' found on many Bohemian vases (thinking of the PK ones just as one example), with a little dash on the bottom of the upright stroke and the horizontal strokes of the curve sticking out over the edge of the horizontal. Obviously I know that with other 'clues' as well as the numbering on the base, items can be properly identified, but I think it just shows that if the Richardson mark had worn off, and the number and letter P just left, it's possible that vase might have been attributed as Bohemian because of the way the mark has been enamelled.
m
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This is a Beykoz enamelled base of a water pipe in a museum in Hawaii.
It has the glittery stuff on outlined in gilt and little white flowers.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Base_of_water_pipe,_Turkey_(Beykoz),_19th_century,_glass,_pigments_and_gilding,_HAA.JPG
m
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-STEVENS-AND-WILLIAMS-ENGLISH-GLASS-FOOTED-COMPOTE-VASE-W-ENAMELED-FLOWE-/131143458675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e88c25f73
I came across this pretty pot today, crimped rim, enamelled in a similar ish way (coloured flowers with use of that odd dark blue and a lighter blue and also the glittery enamel stuff is there). It is signed in a similar way with letter and numbers on the base.
This pot is not the same 'base' glass as most of the 'opal base glass with pale enamel background decoration' items on this thread. It has a 'square or castellated crimped' rim and a bright pink interior cased in white glass with four or five crimped clear glass applied feet.
Something has occurred to me. The script that is found on the base of these would not fit would it, if these were Turkish from the 19th century as the alphabet they were using at the time was a Turkish form of Arabic script I think?
Also, I think the way the letters are written would fit a German script maybe? So I'm back to thinking these are Bohemian. Hopefully this little pot might get us closer to working out who made them.
I still think the darker blue used on these is an odd colour that I don't see that often on Bohemian enamelled glass, so I wonder where they might have been decorated. Maybe not the most common sources. I know some of the Bohemian houses used pale pink and pale blue for overlay glass and that seems to have been quite a feature of their glassworks I think on casual observation (though I'm sure many used all the colours, it just seems these pale colours stand out for certain makers early in the 19th century). One was Annathal I can't remember the name of the other but will look it up.
m
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Hungarian? or Transylvanian? (if such a thing existed as Transylvanian glass)
I've been looking at quite a few pottery pieces listed as Hungarian Fischer Zsolnay (not that I know the faintest thing about Hungarian pottery) but there's something about them, the style of decoration , not identical no, but there's something about them that makes me think these vases might be Hungarian. The pale and rose pink, the pale blue, that dark blue, all used in their pottery as are some of the repetitive motifs.
A good example of what I mean here :o it really has many similarities with these glass pieces I think - have I cracked it?
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9774230
And this is a good example of the moorish style outlines and dots
http://www.ebay.com/itm/19TH-CENTURY-FISCHER-J-BUDAPEST-HUNGARIAN-GILT-H-PAINTED-DOUBLE-GOURD-VASE-/171648805247?pt=UK_PotteryPorcelain_Glass_PotteryPorcelain_China_SM&hash=item27f710e97f
and also
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zsolnay-Flowerpot-Green-White-Gold-1880-Hungary-/141548507623?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f4f2d1e7
this has the pale yellow in
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BEAUTIFUL-ANTIQUE-19th-CENTURY-ZSOLNAY-PECS-LARGE-BOWL-1873-1882-/271374294086
One with a bulbous/lobed form
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZSOLNAY-PECS-LARGE-RETICULATED-VASE-BUDAPEST-HUNGARY-C1900-/331451150634
m
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see my long post above
and this one on Mark Hill's site has what would appear to be the 'bubbly glittery' stuff around the central motif - the glittery stuff the glass is trying to copy. I smell victory ;D
http://www.markhillpublishing.com/a-hungarian-zsolnay-vase-from-kings-lynn/
m
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Just adding this link which will disappear in time
but it's a lovely example of this style with most of the gilding intact so it's possible to get an idea of how pretty they would have looked when newly done.. and also a good way of showing how much of the original decoration might have disappeared from the vases over time. The 'bubbly' stuff that John and I discussed looks to have been gilded originally.
http://www.rubylane.com/item/365154-RL-445/Bohemian-Moser-4-1-2x94-White
m
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And of couse its Moser...I swear 98% of the glass on line attributed to Moser is anything but.
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Yes >:( It's really really annoying.
m
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I know ... I've been all over the world with these ;D
but I'm determined to try and work out where they are from.
I just don't think they are Bohemian :-[
I came across this piece today - Transylvanian 1740
If you scroll down the link it is a bottle ish shaped vase with a pale pink enamelled background and a flower cartouche on it. (seems to be page 47/130 writ on the bottom of the page)
It's different in many ways to those on here(but since it is dated 1740 and given the proliferation of those on this thread I doubt these are that age, it's not surprising it has difference) , but still has distinct similaries - the pale enamelled background, on the white opaline base glass, the little tiny white tin opacified dots around a central cartouche, the little coloured dotted flowers - I think I'm close :) :) I think these might be more recent versions of a 'local' style glass.
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2002-5w-varga-ungarn-glashuetten.pdf
These little ceramic shot glasses are contemporary but they have the little flowers on with stem and two leaves
http://www.ebay.es/itm/6x-Hecho-A-Mano-De-Ceramica-Esmaltada-Shot-De-Vidrio-De-Transilvania-arte-hungaro-/272203739976
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47181.0;attach=100233;image
The one above was the most recent one I owned but I've owned a few. They were all different but all have similarities - the opaline glass body the pale enamelled colours. This rose one was the one that stood out from the others but I think they are all from a similar region. Perhaps different villages had different designs?
I think the history of Transylvania as listed here in Wiki, might explain why I thought there were similarities with some Beykoz glass( the pieces with flowers on that I linked to earlier in the thread) and also why I think there are definite similarities with that Transylvanian vase I linked to on Pressglas Korrespondenz -
'Transylvania is a historical region in central Romania. It was part of the Dacian Kingdom (1st–2nd centuries CE), Roman Dacia (2nd–3rd centuries), the Hunnic Empire (4th–5th centuries), the Kingdom of the Gepids (5th–6th centuries), the Avar Khaganate (6th–9th centuries) and the 9th century First Bulgarian Empire. During the late 9th century, western Transylvania was reached by the Hungarian conquerors[1] and later it became part of the Kingdom of Hungary, formed in 1000 CE. After the Battle of Mohács in 1526 it belonged to the Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, from which the Principality of Transylvania emerged. During most of the 16th and 17th centuries, the principality was a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire; however, the principality had dual suzerainty (Ottoman and Habsburg).[2][3] In 1690, the Habsburgs gained possession of Transylvania through the Hungarian crown.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Transylvania
So there may have been outside influences on the region/s where these were made, hence them having a 'moorish' type style in some instances?
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there is a link here to Romanian rugs and furniture.
I can certainly see some of these vases fitting well with the designs on these items.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/origin/romanian/
this one has a repeat of the little flowers on it
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/rugs-carpets/western-european-rugs/bessarabian-rug/id-f_576665/
https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/8597/1057/XXX_8597_1319836068_1.jpg
This one has the cartouche type designs and repeat flowers
The seller makes some very interesting comments:
'Bessarabian rugs in pile and tapestry technique originating in Russian provinces as well as Ukraine and Moldova Bulgaria and Romania during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Produced under late ottoman rule, they stand right on the cusp of European and Oriental carpet weaving. Dimensions: 5' x 7'. Many of the designs crafted in Bessarabian carpets are floral in motif and all works of the Bessarabian category are highly decorative. Many of the designs crafted in Bessarabian carpets are floral in motif. The designs usually fit within a black or brown tone background, executed in a naturalistic western. Some pieces, in particular the flat-weaves, are woven with the distinctive Bessarabian palette in the tradition of Kilim rugs from nearby Anatolia.'
https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/10800/34_15/2900662/2900662_l.jpeg
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/rugs-carpets/area-rugs-carpets/bessarabian-kilim/id-f_2900662/
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Another example, this time with the aforementioned square form and that painted mark on base, 22cm tall.
John
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I like :) That's a lovely example actually. Good find.
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There are quite a few of these for sale on ebay marked as Thomas Webb Moroccan for a lot of money. Has some more definitive information come to light?