Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => France => Topic started by: flying free on September 07, 2021, 06:38:35 PM
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As clear glass seems to be the thing this week I thought I'd show this.
Will either be used as a salad bowl (it's known as a 'saladier') or will be a Christmas present.
Acid etched with a design of half moons that I think is specific to Saint-Louis and appears as nr.630 in their 1908 catalogue:
https://www.proantic.com/galerie/antiquites-francis-daubet/img/820798-alb-612f9696aa9fe.jpg
The foot is deceptive in the photos - it's a straight sided thick disc applied to the bowl, in clear glass with a 36 point star cut base.
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The texture is very like some float/roll pressed glass designs found in ancient bathroom windows...
please, don't be angry with me... ;)
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;D The French made some great window and mirror glass. I think St Gobain made textured window glass.
This doesn't look anything like it in real life :)
I put a close up on but the design is very very very tiny and the bowl just looks like satin glass really until you see it close up. And then you can see the design. They used this apparently 'acid etched' type of design as a background on some fabulous cameo vases and bowls and also on goblets.
This is an example of it on a lampshade:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55375.msg313791.html#msg313791
I have a large cameo Baccarat bowl with an acid etched background already , which is why I'll be using this one as a salad bowl.
Can't be bothered to photograph the Baccarat bowl but this is the design of it - it has a leaf background acid etched pattern and this cameo design:
https://www.rubylane.com/item/513876-2577/Very-Large-Antique-BACCARAT-Eglantier-Pattern
These are specific to their era I believe - and can be very difficult to sift out whether it's Baccarat or Saint-Louis or even Val St Lambert I think. I'm not sure anyone knows how they were actually achieved and made.
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Nice bowl, interesting surface finish. I bet it would look good empty on a window sill :)
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It's weird, it will probably look good on the black granite windowsill in the kitchen but it really needs a dark 'ground' to sit on so any of the painted white window sills are no good unfortunately.
It actually looks very glamorous on the cabinet but I don't want to use it there and I'm not a fan of colourless glass to be honest :-[ however, this was so cheap I just couldn't not buy it even though I already knew what it was.
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you can be honest, we really won't get upset ;D I'm thinking of the process needed to create your half moon surface decoration - can we discount a machine acid etching? - yes?, ..... so, alternatively, we cover the outside with a resist and what - then some guy spends hours with a steel stylus making all of these random half moons? I don't think I'm buying that. Might the method have been a mould pressing?
I know nothing of Continental bowls from the factories you mention - shame the rim isn't Sterling.
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The rim has lasted 110 plus years and in very good condition so they must have been/be doing something right ;) I don't think it's ever been used. I'm not a fan of gold either but silver would look cheap I think :-X
It's incredibly classy, I would say obviously given it's from Saint-Louis however they and Baccarat made a lot of stuff I don't actually like. It rings like a bell and goes on forever. Nice piece. £14.
I have no idea about the process. It has been discussed before but it seems to have been something that has never been done again I don't think. So however it was being made and whoever was doing it stopped doing it and the method died out with them I presume. It seems to be peculiar to Saint Louis and Baccarat and possibly Val St Lambert. Although I know we discussed whether my lampshade might have been Riedel as well.
It's a bit like the cloudy fluffy coloured glass made by Daum and Muller Freres etc.
Example here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49289.0;attach=111325;image
I've never seen the technique used by anyone other than French makers n the 20s and 30s or since. I've no idea how they did it but it's beautiful.
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the Richardson vermicular or Vermicelli surface decoration (acid) came to mind, but that was pure surface and lacked any depth at all - I really am tempted to think this one could be a pressing of some sort. Gilded chrome not really my thing - if I can't see the lion passant it goes back to the shop ;) ;)
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No it's completely different to the Richardson's vermicular. Completely different look, and feel and texture and technique. And more to the point they did this technique with a plain cameo coloured layer over the top as well. So the technique only appears in the areas without the second plain cameo layer design. It's quite something - look at this lampshade as an example:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55375.0;attach=146312;image
It's not gilded chrome ;D It's gold leaf applied on the glass edge.
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I knew I shouldn't have got involved in foreign glass ;) Who has said it's gold leaf - the factory, or does it have rolled gold or gold filled marks?
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;D It looks very brassy and shiny in the photo - it's not. It's lovely but it's not as gorgeous as the gold on my Etruscan style plate which dates to about 60 or so years earlier c. 1850. There is an obvious difference. It's also nothing like that bright shiny gold you find on 1950s glass either. It's 24ct gold according to their website. I think applied then fired.
So taking the lampshade as an example, it's two layer cameo glass ruby over clear. The clear background has that leaf design. The ruby top cameo layer is plain. It's been blown into a mold for shape and then cased in ruby I guess? Then somehow that rhombus design has been acid etched onto the background clear glass with the ruby cameo layer being left untouched in certain areas to give the pattern? I presume that's how it's been done as no person has hand etched that design obviously. But if it was done that way then that's a lot of waste of coloured glass being taken off to just leave the pattern. Perhaps it was hugely expensive to do hence it being abandoned as a technique eventually?
But how was it etched? that is the question :) The lampshade was blown glass. So is this bowl and all the goblets I've seen.
Their current bowl with a gold rim about the same size is E.675 so I'm very happy with my new salad bowl ;D
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Description here on how old rolled glass was imprinted with a pattern:
https://sashwindowspecialist.com/blog/history-patterned-window-glass/
However, how was achieving a similar effect possible on a curved bowl or goblet?
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Maybe they used the transfer print resist method - where the design was etched onto a copper plate that was then used to create a transfer of resist that was applied to the glass before acid etching. Ref Hajdamach page 197 as discussed here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,13714.0.html
I could see that working on your cameo glass shade (the pattern reminded me of tortoise shell) as there are separate areas but on your bowl there might be some sort of seam where the ends of the pattern join. Unless they had a way around that.
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Thanks for that. I will look it up in the book later.
No seam. That's what so curious about these items.
Also about the cost. Thinking about it, there are many examples of Baccarat Eglantier around and that's two colour/two layer so I can't imagine it was that overly expensive to do. Perhaps it was a Baccarat 'connection' that had the ability to produce these items or the machinery/plates required to make them hence so many more of the Baccarat pieces around.
I wonder if the resist also outlined the floral outer coloured layer pattern but how did they do that?
And how did they do the second colour layer full stop? Was it cased in bands or patch areas or was the whole thing cased and then when the acid resist cut through it removed the coloured layer where the background pattern was?
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I’m not sure I followed that correctly so might have the wrong end of the stick :D, but with your shade, I assumed they did the cameo work as normal from a cased blank, the clear background areas being smooth after. Then they could apply the resist transfers for the texture in the clear background areas, resist could then be painted by hand over the flower foreground to protect those areas from the acid when etching the background texture?
It is a fairly loose imprecise pattern on the bowl, maybe they could hide the seam.
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This glass probably hasn’t got much in common with your items ;D but I think it is an example of the transfer resist acid etched method. It has a band of hatched diamonds, the photos aren’t brilliant, but the texture of the diamonds reminds me of that on your bowl.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174445372350
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Interesting.
Adding a close up of the pattern if I can - hmm, no time to resize at mo.
What I was thinking of was how they did the Eglantier pattern from Baccarat and then managed to get the acid etched background around all the small flowers. It's as though the whole design was done in one sweep . The close up on this one is probably a good example:
https://www.richardhoppe.co.uk/glass/dishes-chargers/c1920s-baccarat-lime-green-eglantier-cameo-glass-trinket-tray
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That’s nice. Obviously just speculating with the transfer method but the baccarat bowl in your link could’ve been done the same way - do the cameo work, then cover the whole thing with the texture transfer resist, then before etching the texture, paint resist by hand on any areas to be left smooth.
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I'm wondering is the coloured cameo design acid etched as well?
This is a good close up of what my bowl is like - not my close up
https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0411/users/1/8/4/6/fracito6915-img955x1030-15421004085nlaug29901.jpg
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Interestingly, the Baccarat Eglantier series of toiletry articles appears in the 1916 catalogue 'tafel 16'
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Baccarat-1916-br-Garnitures-de.54+B6YmFja1BJRD01NCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjE1MSZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD01NCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
I couldn't see my Baccarat bowl there though.
Of course it could have appeared earlier. I'm pretty sure my Saint-Louis bowl is correct in being pattern 630 dating from 1908 catalogue.
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I'm wondering is the coloured cameo design acid etched as well?
This is a good close up of what my bowl is like - not my close up
https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0411/users/1/8/4/6/fracito6915-img955x1030-15421004085nlaug29901.jpg
That’s what I assumed. Maybe if the coloured layer was very thin they could etch it away in the same process as etching the texture (as you speculate at the end of reply #13).
The bowl in your link above looks like the design outline was needle etched first (a bit like John Northwood’s work), you can see on the left in the top photo where the line wasn’t followed very well.
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So as to avoid confusion and not talking at cross purposes, I think each of those little hatched background lines that make up the leaf style pattern on the Eglantier bowl is raised off the surface. I don't thinkthey're cut into the glass, or needle etched into the glass as they do sometimes look. I think they're raised off the glass as though someone pressed a metal mold against the bowl that had tiny lines cut into the metal mold which then left raised lines on the surface of the bowl.
The pink cameo flowers and scrolls are raised cameo cut and are slightly higher raised than the impressed background leaf pattern.
I really have no idea how they managed to make those background patterns though.
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Interestingly, the Baccarat Eglantier series of toiletry articles appears in the 1916 catalogue 'tafel 16'
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Baccarat-1916-br-Garnitures-de.54+B6YmFja1BJRD01NCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjE1MSZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD01NCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
I couldn't see my Baccarat bowl there though.
Of course it could have appeared earlier. I'm pretty sure my Saint-Louis bowl is correct in being pattern 630 dating from 1908 catalogue.
This link shows an Eglantier decor perfume with the same scrolls and cross with circle design as my Baccarat bowl and the seller says it is referenced in the 1903-4 Baccarat catalogue as well as the 1916.
https://www.alexiaamatoantiques.com/en-GB/scent-bottles-sewing-items/unusual-antique-baccarat-eglantier-cranberry-uranium-bottle/prod_12743#.YTk2Cp1KhPY
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This glass probably hasn’t got much in common with your items ;D but I think it is an example of the transfer resist acid etched method. It has a band of hatched diamonds, the photos aren’t brilliant, but the texture of the diamonds reminds me of that on your bowl.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174445372350
I got this 50p tumbler last week as I wanted an example of the transfer resist acid etched method. It’s not been done very well but I see it’s the same decoration as in my eBay link and a closeup of the hatching might be of interest for comparison with the decor of the bowl.
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In all honesty I don't think they're related to the bowls but the technique might be similar/the same?
Your posting prompted me - I've been doing some reading over the last week or so and whilst I can't link it and no idea where I read it, I read something about 'paper patterns' for these acid etched bowls/pieces.
I couldn't even begin to think how that could be possible but I did read that. Somewhere in an old book contemporary to the time of making.
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Yes, it was purely the technique that I thought might be the same, not suggesting they’re related in any way :)
Think it’s called plate etching: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,13714.msg88128.html#msg88128
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I think you are correct in your attribution of the acid etched "half moon " to St. Louis. I came to the same conclusion while researching a set of four acid etched cameo tumblers.
Of the handful of signed Baccarat acid etched cameo pieces I have seen all had the 'fern/leaf" like background. Val ST Lambert I believe used a stylized flower motif on their acid etched cameo as background.
The process I believe is double etching. Simply put a design is etched on a object of cased glass and then an added design is produced in a second dipping in the acid while the first design is covered. Creating two depths of etching. This technique was used by Frederick Carder at Steuben and is very discernible on some pieces as the casing can be quite thick and the etching quite deep compared to the French/Belgian acid etched cameo.
In the photo's if you look carefullyYou may be able to see that the raised portion of the"half moons" is the same depth as the non-patterned etched border design from the first dipping. The lower section of "half moons"being a deeper depth formed in the second dipping.Especially seen where raised lines directly intersect with the cased portion.
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Lovely photos and thanks for the explanation. But how and what did they use to get that repeat background pattern?
I can't get my head around how they did it.
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A very detailed description of the process developed by Frederic Carder at Steuben. It is quite illuminating:
Carder established the etching room at Steuben about 1906. He had become familiar with the process of etching designs on glass early in his career at Stevens & Williams, where he used it as the first step in the productions of cameo glass. The acid-etched pieces produced at Steuben were made by transferring the design to the glass by means of a print made on paper in a "wax ink".
This print was taken from a plate etched with the reverse, or negative, of the pattern desired. The plate could be of glass or metal. Carder usually used a sheet of plate glass about one-quarter inch thick because it was cheaper than steel or copper. The pattern plate was warmed slightly, and the etched portion filled with "ink", which was a compound of asphaltum, beeswax, gum mastic, and turpentine. These elements were proportioned to form a paste that, when warm, was about the consistency of peanut butter; it spread easily into every detail of the etched pattern. After the excess ink was scraped off, a special transfer paper was placed on the warm ink and rubbed down just enough to make the ink adhere to the paper when the paper was peeled back from the plate. The paper with the design in ink was then applied to the glass object and rubbed down with a felt "rubber" to ensure a perfect union between the glass and the ink. Next, the paper was moistened with water and peeled away, leaving the ink pattern on the glass object to be etched.
The portions of the glass not covered with the pattern were painted with wax to protect them from the etching acid. Then the object was immersed in the etching acid for the time required to etch the designs to the desired depth. Afterward, the wax coating was removed, revealing the completed etched design. Etched patterns were discontinued about 1934.
A photo of some matching pieces to your salad bowl.
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Thank you :)
Wow. So these minute etched patterns were created by rubbing paper with wax pattern on it onto the body of the vase so the minutely detailed wax pattern stuck to the vase? And then it was dipped. I'm agog at the amount of work that would have to go into that.
I've just noticed that a different version of this acid etched minute repeat pattern is on the body of a Clichy piece dated 1870s. So it was being done it appears, much earlier than turn of century.
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Cagney I posted a long list of links on this thread here just for cross referencing. I researched that lampshade on that thread in minute detail for quite a while. I think that's when I realised the Saint-Louis half moons seemed to be peculiar to them. Love your yellow pieces. They're a stunning colour.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55375.msg313877.html#msg313877
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Those links remind me a lot of the process I went through trying to get a line on my tumblers. That Clichy did some version in the 1870s seems quite viable. Glassworks where very keen on what other companies were doing and what was selling. A very competitive business to be in at the time, especially given the the importation of glass from other countries.
Interestingly, Frederick Carder also developed a different process while at Stevens & Williams c.1890s Where the background on a cameo object would be "pecked" using a steel stylus powered by a sewing machine mechanism. Only a few pieces made due to breakage.
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I like the sound of that Carder pecked background. As though it might looked chipped. I must look that up and thank you :)
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There is a very good description of the plate etching acid etch process from a Cambridge Glass Company brochure here: http://cambridgeglass.org/articles/etchingarticle.php
Cambridge Glass pattern E725 looks like it has a similar half moon device, used to fill the pattern, in pattern E725. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,71939.0.html
(Not saying it’s related to the bowl except in the use of plate etching to create a similar design element)
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Apologies for the tardy response to this Ekimp. That information is fascinating. So they were using an incredibly detailed and time consuming process to create these pieces.
I remember on another earlier thread from years ago speculating on how these acid etched pieces might have been made. I presume the French method was done in a very similar way to that which you've posted from Cambridge.
(Just spent the weekend in Paris with many hours in the Musee des Arts Decoratifs, closely peering at their fabulous collection of glass :) )
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No problem :) I suppose the time consuming bit was making the metal plates, once that was done it would’ve been relatively quick to reproduce the patterns as often as wanted (compared to cutting or etching by hand) and I expect the plates lasted well before wearing out.
Lucky you, hope you took lots of photos for reference ;D
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I took a few but not enough! It was enough to just see the glass for real though. Some of the items were really surprising compared to what I thought they looked like from online photographs.
I have to say it was stunning to round the corner into the room and suddenly see it all displayed together when I wasn't expecting it.
Really amazing collection of early 1800s opaline. (They didn't have one in the bleu lavande colour of my piece though ;) ) All the other colours were there.
Huge collection of fabulous late 1800s and Art Nouveau glass from a wide variety of makers as well.
It was a weekend crammed with culture and art - my best weekend ever for indulging in textiles, design and glass all at once. Feet hurt now as we walked everywhere.
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I’ll have to dust off the passport :)