Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Trinket Sets => Topic started by: Jayne on July 08, 2020, 07:38:32 PM
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Way back in 2011, a few months after joining this forum, I came across a trinket set on eBay with original "AWS (August Walther & Sohne) Dresden Glass Foreign" labels attached.
Sadly the set was already sold, but I managed to obtain permission from the seller "Riverbride" aka John to share the photos and info as I believe did Anne at the time. However it seems we both omitted to share this info, so here it is finally.
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More photos of the labelled Walther Prismen set and details from the listing with measurements, condtion etc.
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This set raises a few anomalies. The tray design and pot sizes don't match the catalogue images on GTS (not unusual), so is it maybe a later version? I've got a clear green version of this which I thought was Libochovice 1700 as seen in the photos on GTS but having checked, the detailing on the pot lids and the tops of the candlesticks is different. I seem to remember there has been some discussion on this before on GMB. The Walther labels also raise questions.
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Unfortunately if the Walther labels are correct most of the Libochovice 1700 photos on GTS, apart from maybe the ring holders, are also Walther Prismen.
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Hi NevB, yes I realise this is a controversial subject, there have been many discussions comparing Walther Prismen and Libochovice 1700 Trinket Sets over the past 9 years since I've been here at least, and likely before that as well. However, I do think these pictures are worthy of sharing and discussing. As you quite rightly say, catalogue images are not always accurate and often serve more as a guide rather than certainty.
I have a few reasons to think this style may well be the genuine Walther Prismen set and not Libochovice 1700 and some comparisons to add, since I have been collecting these for 10 years and have quite a few of them and also some sets/pieces which could be the Lib 1700 set.
First, the quality of the glass seems typically Walther, the satinised versions are especially smooth just like the mermaid set.
Second, the amount of frosted/satinised sets in this style seems huge compared to transparent colours, and Libochovice trinket sets seem to almost always be in transparent colours, I know some Lib 3020 sets are partially frosted, but that seems the exception.
Third, the Walther Prismen rectangular tray comes in sets with the exact same pots, ring holder, and more often than not candlesticks as this oval tray set, sometimes the sticks are a variant also seen with some oval tray sets.
Fourth, I have finally aquired what I believe to be an original Walther Prismen Tray as seen in the catalogue image, and due to the sharpness and roughness of the saw edge, I believe this could be a good reason for AWS Walther to have changed the original design to something more practical and tactile, I will share a pic of this and items in the other points above in due course.
Of course I could be completely wrong on all points. :)
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Some examples to show here of Walther Prismen Trinket Sets with Rectangular Trays in various colours. The tray is shown in the 1931 and 1933 catalogues.
I have shown them in the original second hand form I purchased in, not adding any extras to try and complete the sets, for the purpose of trying to establish which pots, candlesticks and ring holders are Walther Prismen and which are Libochovice 1700. Of course the sets could have still been purchased as a marriage but we can consider averages and likelihoods.
1931 Catalogue https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1931.116+B6YmFja1BJRD0xMTYmcHJvZHVjdElEPTUxODMmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTE2JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
1933 Catalogue https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1933.34+B6YmFja1BJRD0zNCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MTM0MSZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD0zNCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
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The trays all look to be the early Prismen pattern, the pots and ring holders might be a later version, the candlesticks don't look right as they appear to be tapered not straight like Prismen and L1700, although the base decoration looks right. Looking at the 1933 catalogue I think the design would soon have been considered "old fashioned" and been updated but it's odd that the only mention of the Prismen pattern in the 1937 catalogue is the 8-sided tray.
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I believe this is an original Walther Prismen Oval Tray as shown in the 1931 and 1933 catalogues.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1931.116+B6YmFja1BJRD0xMTYmcHJvZHVjdElEPTUxNTImcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTE2JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1933.34+B6YmFja1BJRD0zNCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MTM2NCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD0zNCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
I posted a thread recently showing "AWS (August Walther & Sohne) Dresden Glass Foreign" labels on a Green Uranium Walther Prismen trinket set, and will add comparison photos of the same tray from that set in clear and also a possible Libochovice 1700 Tray contender in my second post here.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,69719.0.html
As previously mentioned, due to the roughness and sharpness of the saw edge of the original Walther Prismen Tray, it seems possible the design was changed to something more practical and tactile for the dressing table where hands would be moving back and forth over the tray on a regular basis.
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Here are comparisons of the original Walther Prismen tray, a clear version of the labelled Walther Prismen tray and a possible contender for a Libochovice 1700 tray. The sizes are all almost exactly the same, any notable size difference in the photos is just due to the angle the photo was taken from, and position of the trays on the table.
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The trays all look to be the early Prismen pattern, the pots and ring holders might be a later version, the candlesticks don't look right as they appear to be tapered not straight like Prismen and L1700, although the base decoration looks right. Looking at the 1933 catalogue I think the design would soon have been considered "old fashioned" and been updated but it's odd that the only mention of the Prismen pattern in the 1937 catalogue is the 8-sided tray.
Hi NevB, actually this excercise has pointed out the tendency for that type of candlestick to be with this tray set, especially in clear colours which is interesting, in fact I don't recall seeing that type of candlestick in satin/frosted. It's worth noting the base pattern of that particular candlestick appears to match the base pattern of the pots, a slightly floral double sunburst style. (I'm sure there are better ways of describing it).
From past members posts, it seems catalogues don't always feature every single piece for sale just a selection, although your point regarding the 1937 catalogue is noted.
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I've merged all three of Jayne's topics on this set into one to keep all the info together and help get it clear in our heads.
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I've merged all three of Jayne's topics on this set into one to keep all the info together and help get it clear in our heads.
Thanks Anne, I wasn't sure about posting together or separately in this case. :)
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Hi both! I looked again at the Walther Prismen versus Libochovice 1700 set, and the lids of the pots differ in the catalogue, as does the design of the ringholder as well of the tray!
The Prismen pots have widely spaced spear-shapes on the lids, the 1700 has a closer almost daisy petal pattern on them, but I seem to recall that my pots have a pattern closer to that of Prismen!
The ringholder in Prismen is bowl shaped with a saw-toothed rim, the 1700 one is wider with an inverted, almost cushion-shaped base and a less jagged rim. The oval Prismen tray also has the saw-toothed rim of course.
What I can't remember is what the bases of the 1700 pots look like so I'll have to go check. I do have a full set of the Lib 1700 pattern somewhere. I'm not sure if I have any Prismen pieces to compare with though.
I'll rummage and report back! 8)
There are some curious differences between Walther Prismen and Libochovice 1700.
If you compare the catalogues, the pattern on the pot lids you can spot the difference easily as the Walther one has a wider spaced spear-pointed pattern on the lid, whilst the Libochovice one has a narrower closer together spear-pointed pattern.
The Libochovice 1700 candlestick catalogue image appears to have the same spear-pointed pattern round the candle cup, but the Walther Prismen one is totally plain.
But, and there has to be a BUT, eh... the tray which seems to be Libochovice is most often seen with the pot with the Walther lid and the plain candlestick!
I'm adding some comparison photos here to see if we can further this issue and quoting Anne from some other threads as her comments are rather useful.
I've come across a similar set to the set in question and firstly posting the trinket pots.
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Now adding the ring holders, perhaps Eugenie may throw some light here?
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Finally adding the almost complete blue sets, a tray comparison and a couple of pics of the extent of my Prismen/Lib 1700 collection, a trinket obsession as Paul calls it! (He can talk) ;D
The candlesticks are the same in both blue sets in this case.
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Just to add, I have never come across the Libochovice 1700 candlestick with a pattern under the cup as shown in the catalogue image, all candlesticks are plain except the ones that appear mostly with the octagonal Prismen Tray, then only in transparent colours and have a wider spear pattern under the base matching the base of one type of pot and a different shape altogether.
https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/german/walther/prismen
https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/czechoslovakian/libochovice/1700
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Just to add, I have never come across the Libochovice 1700 candlestick with a pattern under the cup as shown in the catalogue image, all candlesticks are plain except the ones that appear mostly with the octagonal Prismen Tray, then only in transparent colours and have a wider spear pattern under the base matching the base of one type of pot and a different shape altogether.
https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/german/walther/prismen
https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/czechoslovakian/libochovice/1700
Update: I have now seen these candlesticks in frosted/satinised with a complete oval tray set, the other pieces are same as the set in post 1 with the original labels, also in Green Uranium.
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Update: I have now seen the 'alternative set' with what appear to be Walther Romeo (Rheingold) candlesticks 6 times, once in clear, twice in pink, and uranium 3 times if I include the topic I have just discovered started by wy699usa in Dec 2020.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70313.0.html
Walther Romeo Glass Candlesticks 1933 (Rheingold 1931):
https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/german/walther/romeo
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1931.116+B6YmFja1BJRD0xMTYmcHJvZHVjdElEPTUxNjYmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTE2JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
I have also seen the set several times with the Prismen style candlesticks.