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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: LEGSY on August 10, 2018, 02:01:32 PM
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Got this little piece today but it has me stumped on age as i have not seen the unusual red iridescence on the revers before almost like carnival glass, I guess it's just a design floor maybe as there are a couple of patches of scuffing near it maybe they tried to remove it after being made. Would love to know the general age and id Michael Harris would still have been there when it was made please. Thank you for looking.
Size 7.5" x 1.5"
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An everted rim bowl, these are early, and quite possibly from the MH period, they're not common.
I think the red appearing is a result of the way different colours of glass, in layers over each other, permits light to get through the piece. On the other hand, it might be slightly oxidised silver sitting on the surface, or something to do with a combination of those things. I don't think there is actually red in it, although it can be seen and photographed, if you see what I mean? ::)
When you have opaque yellows over blues (or vice versa) the only colour of light that will come through those is red (or, more commonly a slightly dirty purple). The yellow and the blue you actually see is reflected off the surface.
Mixing colours in glass is nothing like mixing colours in paint. ;D
Blue and yellow gives purply reds, not greens.
And the opaqueness of that particular section will matter too.
A very nice find indeed. ;D
I'd love to see and feel it in reality, just to find out where and how the red arises.
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;D
Thank's Chopin-Listz Always a great reply on Mdina glass i think it's my eye's not the camera i don't know why Mdina glass has to be so different from piece to piece it's unique well made and real quality well under valued and i think quite scarce these days, Amazes me how newer design's have copied older one's also but they have not got the real studio nature of the glass right in my book and these earlier one's are a bit different!!!
Weird bowl though had a few with oxide's on them like the swirly white whispy trails but this is like gold/amethyst lol lots of colors.
This everted rim bowl Reminds me of a miniature charger i have never owned one and would more than likely break it if i had!
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I had an unusual early experimental thing, which I later discovered was a zig-zag bowl, without the zig-zags. A half-finished thing. It had weird spotty silver deposits on the outside some not shiney, but a bit rough and greyish. I am sure they're not tin, tin does something differently spotty on the surface. :D
What is going on on your surface in this reminds me of that a bit.
Something else you might notice is that it should be fairly finely blown glass - not the usual thick Mdina at all. So it was made by somebody who was really quite good at it, especially for that time period... ;)
I don't know for certain who it might have been.
But I am going very green around the edges. ;D
One of the main reasons all bits of Mdina are unique is because they actually made their own colours by adding metals to the batches they melted. They didn't buy ready-made and consistent colours from other sources. So the actual colour could easily vary from one melted pot to the next.
Early on, they also had a lot of trouble sourcing cullet. They ended up using old milk bottles and that was unfortunately, a rather sludgey yellowy green colour rather than a nice clear for casing. They did not have good quality materials to work with, so you have to try to take that into consideration when judging the overall quality of a piece.
I like to compare it to remembering that Rembrant had to make his paints from crude materials too, and I don't dismiss his work not being like modern acrylics!
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:o
I think you must be able to read mind's when it come's to Mdina Chopin-Listz not an hour ago i and a friend discussed the idea behind the weight of a piece of glass as when researching this bowl came across other similar size bowls which were nearly twice the weight this one is 620grams and dead fine we came to the conclusion that this might have been earlier but were unsure that's why i came here!!! de ja vu :)
I understand it is hard doing any job after a time and people try to make things easier like with buying in uniform color's and making thing's to specific sizes for sale to help keep up with demand etc etc... i just love things done the old fashioned way. I am also surprised to see green like on half of the rim is that a normal color for Mdina?
Thank you for such a great replies love this site... ;D
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Clear greens do appear in Mdina, but they're unusual, and not to be confused with the the later bought-in opaque colours.
It arises when the silver on the surface of one gather reacts in the hot glass in the subsequent, clear casing to create a clear amber colour. This clear amber appears inside the clear casing. (it must be something to do with precise temperatures that mean it goes clear amber rather than opaque yellow) and that clear amber over teal gives rise to that green.
It's just another of the amazing things that happens when silver metal comes into contact with glass and heat.
Sometimes, you end up with a fabulous sort of electric blue haze inside a thick clear casing - that is from silver metal particles which have not reacted.
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I'd say MH era almost for sure. The use of that blue and yellow ochre combo is spot on to 1971-72 designs/ colourways. There is however the very small posibility that its 1973-74, but no later than that just by looking at it. The inverted rim bowls, though continued long after Michael left, are much easier to separate from later ones. This is certainly an early one. The skill it takes to make a bowl like this in the first place is pretty high and given it's finish I'd associate it with one of the few master glassblowers at Mdina at the time that made it. You can never be 100% on who made these things however.
Generally speaking I've only ever seen these early bowls with the first early attempts at the Tiger pattern on them. Not this combo, but as has already been said these inverted rim bowls, even the later ones are few and far between. A lovely find!
If I was forced to give an oppinion on its age, my money would be latter part of 1971-72, but thats just me!
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Thank's for a lovely reply on the bowl really interesting information i really should not have sold my Mdina book a few years ago i have struggled with seeing thing's ever since the Mdina bowl was on a stall in an antique's centre for 2-4 month's on a stall with other more modern mdina and the label read in the style of mdina and it was cheaper than some Mdina paperweights on the same stall i just didn't trust my instincts i believe its losing the book :o but took the plunge eventually luckily not many Mdina aficionado's near me i guess strange but true i purchased the blue bowl in the same centre 2 weeks ago so its proved quite worth while travelling there, Would anybody know which is the more deasirable piece price wise as i plan to sell one to pay for the other also which would be the better one to hold onto?Thank you for your replies :D
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You can still find hidden gems anywhere you care to look! I find people tend to know what mdina is and its rough value but dont have any idea on rarities or pieces of significance therefore thats where i find most 'bargains', having that little extra knowledge goes a long way if you know what you're looking for, so good on you for taking a well rewarded risk with the bowl!
As many will tell you on here price is something very subjective and can differ purely on who wants what at a specific time. I deal in Mdina and Isle of Wight Glass and have a stall full of hundreds of pieces of it and generally speaking bowls like that don't come up too much. Could you take a picture of the blue and white bowl from underneath? I'd be intrested to see what the base looks like.
In terms of value, I can tell you I purchased one in a very early example of Tiger for £40 at the glass fair in Birmingham in February, that was cheap. But online there is/ was one for sale up for over £100 and I doubt it sold for that, if I was selling it id be looking for around £75. But you could chance your luck and see if someone would pay more.
That blue bowl looks remarkably like Isle of Wight in appearance at least, a look at the bottom will quickly tell me if it is or not.
Personally I'm very bias towards Michael Harris era as its what I collect myself, aside from later rarities between 1973-74. If I were you I would keep the bowl. Mdina has alot of interest in it and much to the dismay of us collectors its attracting higher and higher prices and selling too! Its likely to always be worth money becuase of what it is.
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Verdala would be an unusual shape for IoWSG and blue and white swirls is scarce anyway, I too would suspect IoWSG for that, it even looks as if it might have the flame logo on the base.
But if I had both, there's no way I'd part with the Mdina. I'd happily sell the blue and white (to me) lump.
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Blue and White Swirls is my suspicion but looking at the base will be instant varification. Made only between 1973-74 they are scarce, rarer than the 'Seaward' pattern. I would expect a flame logo on this but a coachbolt is possible.
If we are correct, quite likely as I'm not aware of anything else remotely like this being made, they are based on the shape of the verdala bowls at Mdina, a fair amount were made. Blue and White swirls was never actually named and is more a decriptive name given to it. Never going into general production it is considered an experimnetal range and in terms of rarity its one of the rarest patterns to find, particulalry in early IoWSG.
This bowl would be worth a fair amount more than the Mdina bowl sadly, IoWSG is exceptionally well collected and I have no issues selling out of pieces just like this. I would absolutely agree with Sue, I'd keep the Mdina in a heartbeat and sell the IoW if that is indeed what it is. It should fetch a higher price and with the ever present demand for early and rare IoW pieces I can't see you having trouble with interest in it. The Mdina will look better and gain value, the IoW will like remain steady and not rise or fall too much.
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:)
Sorry my reply has come so long after yours i have been tied up at home ::).... ::)
Really didn't expect to get so much insight from the listing your very helpful i have been trying recently to amass a good collection once again as i sold a great collection a few years ago just general glass of all kind's as i got hit by the bug ;D Have regretted doing it so i am looking again and finding some great thing's i am also thinking of jacking my day job in and having a go full time as a dealer in Antiques so i may hold off selling anything right now, I am finding it hard trying to work out whether to have an Ebay shop and do some fairs or have a dedicated website and do fairs i cant decide if the costs for domain names etc and running the site would pay dividends as i have not done it before the idea is very attractive as i love Antiques i cant imagine having the what am i doing here (In Work) feeling quite as much...I have had quite good results selling some higher end pieces through some top online auctions and independent sellers however the extra sale price gets swallowed up by fee's but i guess that's how they make there money at the moment i guess i am trying to work out the direction to take if anybody has any experience and could suggest any idea's or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Your right it is an IOW bowl coach bolt base.
Regards thanks
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I know what you mean! Given the chance I’d collect anything and everything but I must stick to just Mdina otherwise there will be no space left!
In regards to your desire to start up a business, I personally have a full time job and just do fairs throughout the year. Not vary many, usually 0-3 per month. I’ve often considered doing it full time but it’s difficult. Not in the sense that selling is hard, selling what I do it flies off the stall sometimes! But actually finding items for the right price or indeed finding them is the issue. More often than not my best buys tend to be actually at antiques fairs. Online there are too many people with the same idea and collectors willing to pay more because it’s to keep.its a struggle.
Selling on ebay is something I do for very rare items, they sometimes achieve a price I can only dream of. I had an IOW charger in the seaward pattern with a broken pontil, as rare as they can be. That sold for a smidge under 800 and I wouldn’t ever have gotten that at a fair. Online is good for rarities not so much for run of the mill stuff. Plus there is ebay and PayPal fees!
Anyway back to the subject at hand! That is indeed a coachbolt pontil for IOWSG, dating only to 1973. So you have one of the earliest examples of the pattern. You’re looking at between 100-150 for that, and I’d be looking for the higher range of that for something like you have.
If you happen to be at Ardingly, Detling or the Ickworth glass fair next month I shall be selling at all of them, should you wish to ask anything or potentially trade pieces for whatever you’d like to sell I’d be happy to give you a reasonable offer!
All the best.
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I think a Verdala shape for a blue and white swirls piece is a bit unusual. Normally, this colourway is found in large chargers, squat (rectangular-ish) pots with flared rims, bigger square-profiled perfume bottles or attenuated bottles.
The Verdala shape is found on small Aurene plates, and that's normally the only time you'll find it in IoWSG.
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A couple of general points, Blue and White Swirls gets described as experimental (presumably via Mark Hill's book), an odd description to my mind when it is found in all the standard shapes in production at the time. A range that was made for a year or more does not sound experimental to me, short lived would fit the bill though.
IoWSG Verdalas were made in a much smaller size than those at Mdina (to help differentiate them) and probably in all the standard colours in use at the time. My guess is they stopped using the shape maybe around 1974 or 5 (possibly before the introduction of Pink and Blue Swirls), they can be found in Seaward, Aurene and as here Blue and White, I reckon they exist in Tortoiseshell and Pink swirls, less likely perhaps for Orange Swirls but inside outs and attenuated bottles can be found in orange swirls so why not Verdalas?
John
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I've just never seen any IoWSG Verdala shapes other than Aurene ones. :-[
But I haven't paid nearly as much attention to any of the short-lived, (so-called) swirl ranges as you did, John. I only ever ended up with the odd bit of blue and pink because I'd found it cheap in charity shops, they were never deliberate purchases.
I bow to your vastly superior experience in this matter. ;D
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I think the term experimental in this regard points to the colourway not being in general production and therefore in much smaller numbers and being unnamed. I would agree short-lived to be a much more apt description. However one must not assume that just because it was made for a year or two doesn't mean it was made every day, every week or even every month. Simply by having a coachbolt on one example and a flame pontil on the other people assume it was made for a year, all it would actually take is 2 pieces of glass stamped a year apart. But the point still remains, it's not experimental in the way I percieve the meaning of the word.
They were produced in pink swirls, you'll see an example on the IoW wikidot website under unnamed/ experimentals section. They too also describe the range as experimental.
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I tend to think that I see slightly more seaward than blue and white, and more blue and white than pink swirls (not to be confused with pink and blue swirls), orange swirls being genuinely rare. I would assume that is a result of the numbers produced rather than the length of time those items were produced over. Given that there were various ranges produced along with all the sundry items it is apparent that a single colour would not be in continuous production.
Two otherwise similar items, one with a coach bolt and one with a flame mark could in theory have been made a day apart as opposed to a year. As the information was not recorded at the time all of this is somewhat fuzzy, we don't have cast iron information and dates are vague.
Re the Verdalas, anyone have one in Tortoiseshell or Pink and Blue Swirls?
Just as examples for this thread, an aurene verdala and another in seaward that is signed, sorry neither the best of photos.
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I thought I would show this recently bought everted rim bowl as it has so many bubbles. I have a couple of others but have not seen any others with so many bubbles. Can anyone tell me how the bubbles are added and if they make it from a particular time period.
Thanks, Andy
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Can anyone tell me how the bubbles are added and if they make it from a particular time period.
Thanks, Andy
These are Whitefriars random bubble pieces.........I was once told by their chemist
how the batch of glass was made. I think washing soda was added but I could be wrong !
Maybe the Boffo's were involved ?
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Interesting, I hadn't thought that the Boffos may have taken the method with them from Whitefriars.
I do have a bottle and stopper by the IOW studio with the same bubbles. I think it's more prevalent in IOW glass but again it has so many.
I do love the bubbles and always look out for pieces with them.
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I strongly suspect bubbles in glass predate Wfs, by a thousand odd years.
Getting rid of them was a bigger problem with early recipes than adding them.
I think, in Mdina, they can arise from the chlorine gas being released from silver chloride, and I've heard of potato peelings and even just plain carbon being dumped in a batch, to produce bubbles.
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Yes I'm sure you are right about them predating whitefriars but I didn't know if they were added for effect or were there due to a problem or mistake.
That's why I wondered if they were a sign of a certain date of production and were later removed due to perfecting the process. I assume the IOW bubbles were put in as by then they would have known how to keep them out.
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:) I think it's less that they are "put in" and more of "they're allowed to occur".
Tiny bits of air can get trapped along with the coloured glass powder picked up on a gather, when making the decor, and when heated, they will expand.
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Thanks, that's interesting. So much to learn.
:)
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The learning never stops. That's what makes glass so interesting.
Do try to go and watch it being done. It's absolutely fascinating. The more you learn, the better able you are to work out what's easy to do and what's difficult, and you can judge the quality of something a bit better if you know about that.
I used to think bubbles had to be "put in" too, and I will never forget the very early thread here when we discovered controlled bubbles got "put in" using a mould with prickles in it, to make tiny holes around the gather before capturing them in the casing.
We'd been imagining somebody with a special needle and syringe, putting each tiny one in, one at a time. ;D
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I went once to see Timothy Harris work and it is amazing to watch the procceses. He is one of the best and we will go again when time allows.
I'm reading a lot but handling as many pieces as possible is one of the best ways to learn for me.
:) Andy