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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Baked_Beans on February 23, 2010, 07:45:56 PM

Title: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 23, 2010, 07:45:56 PM

Any ideas on this one would be great !  Max height 5 inches and max diameter is 7 inches. Polished pontil with quite a bit of scratching to base. Thanks for looking.

Title: Re: Iridescent mould/hand blown ; possibly soda glass vase. Not a clue on ID !
Post by: Mosquito on February 23, 2010, 07:58:17 PM

Hi,
The glass looks very similar to an item Bernard Identified for me some time ago as Walsh Walsh 'Mother of Pearl' glass. I'm not familiar with many Walsh shapes so can't confirm if your vase is by them, but I think it' should be worth looking in that direction.

Steven :)

Title: Re: Iridescent mould/hand blown ; possibly soda glass vase. Not a clue on ID !
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 23, 2010, 08:03:37 PM

Cheers Steven,
I will try seaching on the internet ! Ta, Mike.

Title: Re: Iridescent mould/hand blown ; possibly soda glass vase. Not a clue on ID !
Post by: Andy on February 28, 2010, 08:38:27 PM

Just had a look in the book 'the glass of John Walsh Walsh 1850-1951
There are a couple of very similar vases shape wise, in the book, I expect Bernard would know for sure.
Maybe a Mod could add Walsh Walsh ?? to the header to bring it to Bernards eye?
Cheers
Andy

Title: Re: Iridescent mould/hand blown ; possibly soda glass vase. Not a clue on ID !
Post by: keith on February 28, 2010, 08:41:10 PM

Certainly has the Walsh look,
                                 Keith.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; possibly soda glass vase.
Post by: Bernard C on March 01, 2010, 02:39:04 AM

Mike — Yes, that floral / leaf pattern is a well known Walsh pattern, known in mother of pearl and other types of Walsh glass.   Yours is also flint mother of pearl glass, made by starting with a tiny initial gather of a hard white opal, possibly a lampshade glass, and then casing this in colour or flint glass.   The final stage after shaping the rim was applying the lovely iridescence.

If you are really lucky, the thin inside layer of opal glass may have started breaking up into a light crackle effect, usually around the rim.

Nice piece.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother-of-pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 01, 2010, 05:56:26 PM

Thanks ever so much Andy, Keith & Bernard for your huge help on this piece !
Can I ask ...is there a good general book on Walsh Walsh so that I could order it from the library (and then maybe buy it) !?
There is no light crackle effect to the rim (as yet !) .
I hope to put the vase on ebay and I will use the facility on this site to link it in (which I should have done before on other items ....sorry Glassmessages !).
Bernard, do you have any ideas for the dates of production for this type of vase/pattern ?
Cheers , Mike  ;)    

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother-of-pearl
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2010, 06:52:19 PM

The Glass of John Walsh Walsh, 1850-1951, by Eric Reynolds is the only book. ISBN 0 903685 69 8

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother-of-pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 01, 2010, 06:58:56 PM

Thanks Christine, I will be off to the library !

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother-of-pearl
Post by: Bernard C on March 02, 2010, 02:07:08 AM

Mike — it's difficult to date Walsh mother of pearl accurately.   Roughly early C20 give or take a decade, possibly continuing through to the '30s.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: mrvaselineglass on March 02, 2010, 12:30:12 PM

The opalescent spot pattern on the sides of the vase is called 'HORSE CHESTNUT'.  This mold was used by Richardson of Wordsley and then in 1935, the mold was sold to Thomas Webb & Sons.  I have had this vase with the mother of pearl finish in vaseline/uranium glass.  It was very light colored.  When Webb got the mold, he added a higher concentration of uranium to the batch to make it more yellow.  I have not seen one by Webb with the higher concentration of uranium, so I don't know if Webb also did the mother of pearl finish.  I am pretty sure that it was Richardson (and not Webb) that made your vase. 

Mr. Vaseline Glass

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 03, 2010, 05:44:50 PM

Thanks Mr Vaseline Glass,
Once molds start changing hands it makes things very complicated ! Ahhhh ! Trying to identify glass is difficult enough as it is (especially being a novice like me) :cry:  How did you find out about the selling of the mold !?
Thanks for the help. Mike.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: mrvaselineglass on March 03, 2010, 10:05:28 PM

look at color photo #202 (and narrative) in Cyril Manley's book, DECORATIVE VICTORIAN GLASS.  Manley has a larger vase illustrated, with the same opalescent spot pattern.  Richardson closed in 1926, Webb bought the mold in 1936 (according to Manley).

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 03, 2010, 10:11:56 PM

Thanks very much ...I shall order the book from the library ! Cheers, Mike.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Mosquito on March 03, 2010, 10:28:31 PM

I'm confused here; the vase has been identified as Walsh Walsh, it's in a typically Walsh colour/ finish, so why the mention of Richardson & Webbs? Is Manley the only source for this information? Certainly Manley's book was a landmark publication, but it's getting on for 30 years old and some of the information and attributions contained therein have now been called into doubt...

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: mrvaselineglass on March 03, 2010, 11:09:56 PM

No disrespect is intended (especially to Bernard), but the only mention in this thread on identification of this piece to John Walsh Walsh is Bernard:
"Yes, that floral / leaf pattern is a well known Walsh pattern, known in mother of pearl and other types of Walsh glass."

I have the mentioned book on Walsh Walsh (by Reynolds) and I have looked through it several times (the last time just now) and I saw no spot pattern that was the same as in this vase.  The spot pattern starts as a mold.  Even after a piece is manipulated into various shapes, that same spot pattern can be still identified.  Manley actually shows the same spot pattern in his book.  Yes, I know there are some off-the-wall identifications in Manley's book, but who is to say that this is one of them?  Is there anything in research materials that states that "only John Walsh Walsh had this mother-of-pearl irridescent' coating"  There are companies in the US that have made a similar irridescent finish over the top of glass and it is done by spraying mineral salts in a liquid solution over the piece when it is still hot.  (same is done to make carnival glass with a different mineral salts formula).  Who is to say that either Richardson or Webb did not do the same thing?  Especially Webb, who had the mold in later years. Companies copied lots of designs, patterns, and glass treatments that they saw had a good market.  Lots of companies figured out how to make glass look like their competitors glass.  I would love to have this mystery solved, as I am a big fan of John Walsh Walsh.  I have had pieces with this mother-of-pearl finish in my collection.  I also have pieces by John Walsh Walsh (in an opalescent spot pattern known as OPALINE BROCADE, a famous documented pattern) that do not have that finish.  There are several pieces in the Reynolds book that show the mother-of-pearl finish, but NONE are this spot pattern. 

(side note on other companies copying patterns: Northwood stole the OPALINE BROCADE pattern from John Walsh Walsh.  Walsh Walsh introduced it in 11/1897 and is shown in an original ad from POTTERY GAZETTE in Reynolds' book, pg. 13.  Northwood introduced it in the US in 1/1899, just 14 months later). 

I would love for someone to show me either Manley was wrong on this particular identification, or to have someone point out the page and picture in Reynolds' book that shows this is an identified Walsh Walsh pattern.  The majority of the Reynolds book is reproductions of the original pattern books, and I may have missed it, but did not see it.  Also, if this pattern is such a well known Walsh Walsh pattern (and it seems to show up with some frequency on ebay), you would think Reynolds would have included some mention (or even a photo of) this pattern. 

Mr. Vaseline Glass

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Mosquito on March 04, 2010, 09:41:50 AM

Mr. Vaseline Glass,

I'm just intrigued to know your source for the information about Richardson having this mould and it being later passed to Webb. I have not heard this information before & would be intrigued to know where it came from (other than Manley), especially as it appears that ownership of the mould is the basis for your attribution.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 04, 2010, 12:24:04 PM

Just a note on a nice little book on Thomas Webb & Sons.

The book is entitled "Art, Feat and Mystery" The story of Thomas Webb & Sons, Glassmakers by H W Woodward. This book was actually published by Mark & Moody Ltd a Stourbridge printing firm back in 1978 the copywright to the book was owned by Thomas Webb & Sons. ISBN no 0950643904

The author Mr Woodward was Librarian and Curator at Brierley Hill , Staffordshire from 1938 to 1966 in charge of the public libraries and glass museum. Mr Woodward grew the glass collection from 200 to 800 pieces over the years that he was there !

Anyway , on page 25 he writes " In the early 1930's , the old established firm of Henry G Richardson & Sons was acquired by Webb's, who continued to produce Richardson patterns at Dennis (the glassworks for Webbs) trading them under the Richardson name. Mr Ben Richardson died in 1956 "

He also writes " At Dennis Hall is a wealth of Richardson and Webb pattern and price books dating from the early part of the 19th century and catalogues of the 20th , presenting an impressive panorama of the products of the two firms for a century and a half. Apart from the extensive range of decorative and tableware there is a long run of Richardson lighting patterns. Webb pattern numbers have now reached the total of 53,000 -but one pattern number may include a number of items"

It seems then that although Webbs bought Richardson they traded still under their different names of a while at least.

Perhaps if this vase is Richardson/Webb then the pattern can be found in amoungst the 53,000 mentioned above. ::) I wonder where they are ?

Cheers, Mike.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Bernard C on March 04, 2010, 07:38:23 PM

Hi Mike, Dave & Steven,

Sorry about the delay — Cambridge fair & its aftermath, and I've been checking sources.

My first reaction to your initial post, Dave, was a memory that I had seen that piece in a published book somewhere.   So I set about finding it.   Your naming the pattern so positively was a big clue — probably Heacock, so I went through everything of his I've got in my library, twice — no luck.   So then I went through everything else, and so did my OH, Janet.   Over a cuppa we decided it must be Manley, and I can recall seeing that illustration in the book.

Back to Sunday at the fair.   We had one display of eleven items, all by one master glassmaker.   When you see it all together you can see this, with common elements running through all the pieces.   There were nine examples of mother of pearl, one with applied green seaweed, eight in flint mother of pearl, and one in dark green mother of pearl.   Two of the flint mother of pearl pieces were bowls in the same pattern as Mike's.   The other two were a large flint bowl in the same pattern as Mike's, and a rather way out example of studio or art glass including real aventurine (copper shavings).   Several of these pieces were fully documented Walsh, appearing in either Reynolds or Gulliver with rock solid attributions.

So, why did Manley attribute the pattern to Richardson.   There is, of course, no reason why Richardson's couldn't have owned a horse chestnut pattern dip mould, but I've never seen its use.   Whatever, Mike's bowl is from the same source as mine, and is not Richardson.   A more likely explanation is to consider the state of glass knowledge when Manley wrote his book.   At that time Walsh was not considered a possible attribution for unmarked and undocumented hand-made fancy glass, in the same way as Smart Bros, Molineaux Webb, and Kempton still aren't today.

If you don't believe me, then so be it.   But I would prefer you to examine and handle this stock before making a judgment.   Photographs are no substitute for this.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: keith on March 04, 2010, 07:51:07 PM

Just out of interest Bernard,do you have pictures of the pieces you mentioned,I would love to see them,
                                                                                                                                 Keith.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: mrvaselineglass on March 05, 2010, 04:29:02 AM

Bernard
there is absolutely no substitute for handling glass in person, as the eyes have much more clarity than any photographic process.  thank you very much for sharing your observations.  As I said in my posting, I meant no disrespect, I was just opening up discussion.  It is good to know that the mother-of-pearl matched.  I am actually glad the Horse Chestnut pattern is Walsh Walsh instead of Richardson (or Webb).  They get too much credit for glass that isn't there product anyway!  LOL

I have several pieces of Walsh Walsh (4 with twisty stems) and several pieces of Opaline Brocade by JWW, but the one piece of Horse Chestnut I had (with the mother-of-pearl finish), I sold about a year ago.  I guess I need to work on replacing it, now that I know who made it.

Mr. Vaseline Glass

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 05, 2010, 08:29:49 PM

Really pleased this debate has uncovered a mistake in a publication ...hope it will help others as well as myself , Cheers All  , Mike. :chky:

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Bernard C on March 06, 2010, 08:18:59 AM

Quote from: Baked_Beans on March 05, 2010, 08:29:49 PM

...   this debate has uncovered a mistake in a publication   ...

Mike — No, not at all.   Manley did not make a mistake, as any other authority was likely to have come to the same conclusion at the time.   Indeed Manley is remarkably free of errors, as are all books on British glass published over the last 25 years.   The book with probably the longest errata list is Benson & Hayhurst, published 2003, and the reason was simply that Nigel and Jeanette were groundbreaking, covering important British cut glass from the 1930s onwards, deliberately not discussing aspects already well covered like Clyne Farquharson and Keith Murray, so there was no-one with any experience to proof read Nigel's text.   Despite this immense difficulty the errata list is far shorter than you might reasonably expect.

Every reference book you read is out of date.   They're out of date from the day they go to the printer.   The onus is upon you, the reader, to appreciate that fact, and to keep it in mind, always.   You should be constantly revising your library by adding in pencilled marginal notes as and when new research and other information affects the content.  So, anyone reading this who is lucky enough to own a copy of Manley should be pencilling into the margin near that illustration a note along the lines of "March 2010 — Now attributed to Walsh mother of pearl, see GMB topic .....".

Keith — Photographs forthcoming.

Dave — Thanks for your posts.   You probably made me make a much better case than had you not posted.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 06, 2010, 02:17:11 PM

Hi Bernard,
Thanks for highlighting my comment. I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments . I am just very pleased the matter of attributing the pattern has been solved, thanks to your research and insight, and that a missleading entry has been highlighted.
 I would have thought though, that given the large archive of pattern information available at Dennis Hall (for Richardson & Webb) ,that a published photo of a piece would have been backed up with a design/pattern number from the maker. I understand also that ,given publishers deadlines and other restraints, perhaps not all entries in a publication can be researched as thoroughly as would be hoped by authors putting together a new volume.
It's been a real eyeopener for me ! Cheers, Mike. ;)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 06, 2010, 02:30:47 PM

Cyril's book was publshed nearly 30 years ago and his glass was collected even further back. You have to remember how access to information has changed during that time. His book is worth having just to dribble on.

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown
Post by: Bernard C on March 15, 2010, 10:19:57 AM

The studio or art glass piece I mentioned is discussed here.   Illustration:

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0780.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0780.jpg)

Click to enlarge.   Click here (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-12588) for gallery with more images.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh-Walsh? Iridescent mould/hand blown ; ID = Walsh Walsh, mother of pearl
Post by: Bernard C on March 15, 2010, 02:55:07 PM

Oops, here's the topic link:

Walsh studio/art trumpet vase — real copper aventurine? (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,32455.0.html)

Bernard C.  ;D