Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: thewingedsphinx on November 24, 2022, 09:21:58 PM
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For reference as I’ve never seen this one in opalescent before, come to think of it I’ve not come across any Walter Crane inspired nursery rhyme pieces in opalescent but my father does have a few other pieces from the same 1882 catalogue in Opalescent. Faint peacock mark in base, 3.5” wide.
Regards Mike
Just need to find it’s big sister now…
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That's pretty - a lovely shape and unusual. The opalescence is lovely.
Is it actually called Blanc de lat in the catalogue? I'm just wondering because I thought Blanc de lait was an opaque white glass, not opalescent glass.
m
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Hi, I think this colour topic has been discussed before, I don’t think the word opalescent was widely used at that time as it’s not mentioned in the 1882 list of colours at the top of the catalogue. I tend to agree with the Victorianpressed glass website which refers blanc de lait as clear glass with milky white opalescent spreading through it.
That’s my take on it but I could wrong, thanks Mike
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http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/sowerby_coloured_glass.htm#8
That's interesting. Thank you.
1) For (my )future reference on the board, the site says the two Sowerby opaque white colours that come under the Vitro-Porcelain Glass list were called:
- Opal (an opaque white glass the first Vitro-Porcelain colour)
- Patent Ivory Queens Ware (a colour 'in imitation of carved ivory')
2) There is some discussion under Rubine section on that site, about the colour names of Sowerby opalescent glass:
'Sowerby used the term Blanc-de Lait for his opalescent glass, not opalescent.
So, for me, the opalescent Gladstone bags in the Shipley Art Gallery are either Rubine or Rose Opalescent... .'
It's interesting (to me) that Sowerby would call their opalescent white glass 'Blanc de Lait' but their opalescent pink glass could be the colour named 'Rose Opalescent'. (Although didn't Jobling have a specific name for their white opalescent glass? Opalique was it? so I can see why there may have been an attempt to make a brand name for the Sowerby opalescent range rather than just calling it opalescent)
So I can see the author is making the point that Sowerby having named an opalescent white glass 'Blanc de Lait' , could equally have named an opalescent pink glass 'Rubine' instead of using a name such as 'Rose opalescent'.
However under that section the descriptor 'opalescent' is mentioned as the author says:
'Cottle (pg 61) 'a pinker version of ruby was later called Rubine and when added to a mixture of opal glass was called Rose Opalescent'.'
Did that word opalescent as stated by Cottle not appear in Sowerby's own description of the colours then?
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Adding to my long post above -
I've just noticed in the Pottery Trade Gazette advertisement of 1882 here:
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/images/sowerby_colours/pottery-gazette-1882_small.jpg
there is a colour called 'Stained Blanc-de-Lait' - could that have been the pink opalescent glass Gladstone Bag colour? I mean, if they've called an opalescent white glass 'Blanc-de-Lait' then it could be likely a coloured opalescent glass could have been called 'Stained Blanc-de-Lait' couldn't it?
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Blanc de lait = milk white = milk glass = Lattimo. I would not advocate the waters to be troubled by half misunderstood terminology from the past. The colouring agent is tin oxide,
Some earlier versions of white translucent used the opaline formula with antimony, it has a pinkish sheen when held to the light. AKA fiery opal. In those days glass makers used fancy names to distinguish from the competition.
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Hi Ivo :)
Not sure I fully understand. Are you saying that Sowerby may have used tin oxide in making this particular range of glass which has an opalescent appearance but has been named by them 'Blanc de Lait' ? Hence giving a reason why Sowerby might have named that range 'Blanc-de-Lait'?
I can't see why any maker would call a range of glass the name Blanc-de-Lait, unless it was a white opaline or opaque glass (like lattimo - see Miotti for good examples). I find that a very odd marketing ploy.
m
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I think it’s always going to be difficult to know exactly what their interpretation in the catalogues is unless you a
have a colour catalogue with the names underneath. For instance these nursery rhyme pieces can also be found in “frosted” ( sand blasted? Satin ) and on top of that sometimes with enamel decoration, they’re also very rare, I don’t think there is any mention of frosted or it’s equivalent in the catalogues.
I think Mike T’s website is the best we have on the subject.
regards Mike
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I'm not disputing the resource at all. I'm just genuinely curious.
m
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I'm also curious about the 'griffin' type vase with three griffins around the side. In that advertisement I linked to, does the drawing of that look as though it has a serrated or regular wavy rim?
It looks as though the rim is different to this one for example:
https://www.premierantiques.co.uk/sowerby-turquoise-malachite-slag-glass-gryphon-or-chained-swans-vase-c1880-1-806-p.asp
I seem to recall quite a lot of discussion around these pieces on maker. And I acknowledge that is a print of a drawing so detail can be lost. However that rim doesn't look like the one on the link to me at all ???
Modified a bit later to add - ah, the serrated rim looks like this one, so two different designs:
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/images/sowerby/aesthetic/sowerby_aesthetic-yellow_2.jpg
m
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Ok, 1st picture is the gryphon vase ?? My father has more of these as this is an old photo none have a makers mark.
2nd picture, pair of smaller vases which are the ones I believe you mention in the advertisement come with a Sowerby peacock mark.
I’m fairly sure there are two sizes of the gryphon vase but there’s not not much difference in size. I think on this website site there was proof of a receipt from a purchase that lead them to be by Sowerby. But they are always referred to as Edward Moore, my father is open minded and thinks perhaps the original mould was a Sowerby mould perhaps used with the plain colours and perhaps Edward Moore acquired the moulds when he left Sowerby and started his own business but that’s our speculative answer.
Regards Mike
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They're lovely. The yellow and the opalescent with the serrated rim are the most beautiful colours :) the best.
The V&A have the opalescent one in the collection (they date the design registered as 1879)
They also have quite a few pieces with this strange texture on:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4521/biscuit-jar-sowerby-ellison-glassworks/
Could this be the 'frosted' glass referred to maybe?
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Something odd on this page - the jug with a mask on (left hand side orangey browny green mottled) referred to as Sowerby is I think Stevens and Williams Caerleon glass maybe? Or at least it looks remarkably similar ???
http://www.glass.co.nz/sowerby.htm
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I see what you mean as we have some of those bits in the collection as my mother collected the clear pieces, however. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the frosted “old king Cole” pieces which is solid frosted if you know what I mean rather than semi sand blasted.
Mike
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Yeah i don’t recognise that jug, but Sowerby didn't just make pressed glass They made all sorts of things. But probably didn’t add a makers mark.
My folks only collected pressed glass from around 1874-85 ish for Sowerby.
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I've always been curious about those pieces with an enamelled rim (Venetian style) and I think I would also definitely wonder where that mottled jug was made. It really looks like Stevens and Williams Caerleon to me.
Apologies for all the questions (what seems like an inquisition! sorry ) but is this piece wrongly listed as 'Enamelled Blanc-de-Lait ' then?:
https://www.premierantiques.co.uk/rare-sowerby-enamelled-blanc-de-lait-vitro-porcelain-glass-bowl-c1879-4986-p.asp
And these also? Are they actually the 'Opal' glass referred to on the resource website?:
https://www.davidlay.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-936---a-collection-of-sowerby-blanc-de-lait/?lot=70201&so=0&st=&sto=0&au=125&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=96&pn=5&g=1
'Opal an opaque white glass the first Vitro-Porcelain colour produced in 1876 followed by:'
There is some description of the above piece here but the caption refers to Blanc-de Lait but then shows white opaque glass. And last question, is that turquoise piece an example of the frosted you mentioned?:
Other Sowerby Colours and Surface Decoration
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/sowerby_coloured_glass.htm
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Premier antiques and the auction house don’t tie up with Mike T’s website, I would have thought they are vitro porcelain with enamel decoration? , so I don’t have any more answer I’m afraid. The last piece I think you refer looks sand blasted 1885 ish which is after the nursery rhyme pieces. We need help for Mike T.
Cheers Mike
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I very strongly suspect Caerleon for that jug too. Has somebody wrongly assumed the lion's head prunt indicated Sowerby?
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I'll try to help out if I can.
My theory on the Opal/Blanc de Lait, white/opalescent debate.
If you look at the 1878 pattern book: http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/pdf/sowerby/sowerby_1878_colour.pdf
The first 3 or 4 pages show patterns in Turquoise, Jet and Opal. These were the first colours made in opaque Vitro Porcelain which was patented in 1876.
Opal must be opaque white because Blanc de Lait (opalescent) was not patented until 1880.
Slack agrees with this but Cottle does not. I think Slack is correct.
The pieces on the websites referred to by Flying Free are, as Mike said, Opal with enamel decoration. I think this is cold painted as it can be rubbed off.
So for me these websites have incorrect descriptions. Depends which book you are reading.
The Turquoise frosted piece is in the 1882 catalogue and is acid etched. Sowerby used both acid etching (possibly for smaller items) and sandblasting, if you look at the Sowerby Colours page:
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/sowerby_coloured_glass.htm towards the bottom is an ice bucket which has been sand blasted.
In the pattern books Sowerby sometimes refers to this as 'obscured'.
The biscuit jar in the V&A is 'stippled', very fine dots in the mould. Sowerby used this decoration on a number of pieces.
Also, towards the bottom of the Coloured Glass page I try to explain the words 'Stained Blanc de Lait' on the front of the 1882 catalogue.
Stained Blank de Lait possibly refers to green tinted BdL and possibly the pink tinted BdL Gladstone Bags. Cottle uses the term 'Rose Opalescent' but I'm not sure where that came from.
Mike has a very nice pair of green tinted BdL swans on another thread.
I don't think the jug or Venetian piece on the NZ Glass Museum website are anything to do with Sowerby. The only prunts (raspberry) I have seen are on Sowerby Venetian glass.
Sowerby Venetian is interesting, I have a number of pieces and I am trying to put together a web page about this at the moment.
Mike
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Mike thanks so much for your lengthy and really interesting detailed response.
I think Richardson used the term 'opal' for their white opaline glass as well. I've also seen it referred to quite frequently when looking back at old documentation c. 1850s. It seemed to me at the time to be a description of white opaline glass that was commonly used in England at that time. Art critics also used it if I recall correctly so it seemed commonplace - a term that everyone knew meant white opaline glass kind of thing.
Could I ask a question then please - when Blanc de Lait was patented was it stipulated, or did the recipe indicate, that it was an opalescent glass at all?
Also, I came across some old documentation referring to Sowerby manufacturing stained glass. Is that true do we know? I know there was a big interest in stained glass production in the late 19thc.
Thank you again for all the really fascinating information.
m
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m
Don't believe everything you read:-)
I used the wrong phrase, I was thinking of a patent for Vitro Porcelain and used the word for Blanc de Lait. I should have said BdL
was 'introduced' in 1880. As far as I know there was no patent, so no mention of opalescent.
The information came from Slack:
On 1 May 1880 a new glass was announced and a report of that date in the Pottery Gazette gave the following appraisal:
Amongst the latest novelties in glass is an article called Blanc-de-Lait ware by Sowerby and Co. We begin to look every spring for something new in the fancy line by this firm,
and this year they certainly introduced a very cheap, pretty, and charming novelty, and they deserve great praise for putting into the hands of the people of slender means an articleof fine and undoubted taste.
Slack goes on to say:
This 'new' glass was a beautiful opalescent material which Sowerby's had been perfecting for some time, and was based on an original recipe for the production of their free-brlow glass.
So we have this from Slack, no proof that this new Blanc de Lait glass was opalescent but very similar opalescent was certainly used in some of their art glass.
Yes, Sowerby did make Stained glass, they had a separate workshop called the Gateshead Stained Glass Company.
Cottle has a 4 page chapter about the workshop. There is also a book: Saints & Symbols, The Stained Glass of Ford Madox Brown, William De Morgan, John George Sowerby, Walter Crane and Frederic Shields, but I haven't read that yet.
Mike
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Thanks Mike. So sorry ... I feel like a dog with a bone here. Apologies for all the questions. And I have to admit my huge interest in this is because I'm very interested in opaline and opalescent glass developments. I don't own any Sowerby that I know of unfortunately.
Thank you for the information on their Stained glass company. Something occurred to me. The advertisement referred to 'Stained Blanc-de-Lait' didn't it? At that time, the word stained was used in conjunction with stained window glass I think? as it is now. i.e. if someone said 'stained glass' to me, I'd think of window glass in colours. If it was, the why would they use it as a descriptor of Blanc-de-Lait? for what purpose I mean. What were they trying to communicate to their buyers?
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Apologies to Mike for hijacking his thread, but I hope this is interesting.
If someone said Stained Glass to me, like you, I would think of coloured glass. In fact I have a lot of it in the shed from a past life.
But, original stained glass windows were not made of coloured glass but clear glass painted with various pigments which when fired produced the colours.
There was a previous thread on here which is worth re-visiting: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45056.10.html
Referring to a picture in Cottle of a group of enameled opal vases, Bernard C says, 'J.G.(Sowerby) would not have considered enameling relevant to the colour of glass. Enameling, even fired-on enameling, was a decorative process, nothing to do with glassmaking, as it could be used on pottery, china, and metal as well. So he would have regarded the group shown not as stained, as it says in the caption, but painted or decorated with enamel.'
On my Glass Colours webpage I wrote:
I agree with this sentiment. While most Blanc de Lait items are opalescent clear glass, there are also a significant number found in a pale green opalescent glass which does not appear to have a specific name. I believe this colour could be the 'stained' Blanc de Lait referred to in the advertisement. It is also possible the the 'stained' idiom may refer to the very rare pink tinted 'Blanc de Lait', referred to above as Rose Opalescent.
But, it could also refer to clear Blanc de Lait pieces which are sometimes found with highlights picked out with an amber stain.
In the 4 pictures:
First is a standard piece of clear opalescent Blanc de lait
Second is green tinted Blanc de Lait. This is found as often as clear but I believe that Sowerby made this type for a longer period than the clear.
Third is a pink tinted Blanc de lait. Only two items known to exist, both Gladstone bags, displayed in the Shipley Art Gallery, Geteshead. Referred to in Cottle as Rose Opalescent.
Forth is clear Blanc de Lait with an amber stain. These are quite rare, the stain always seems to be amber and is probably fired on as opposed to just painted. I do not have a piece, can anyone confirm this?
The catalogues are trade only. By the time of the 1882 catalogue I think Vitro Porcelain sales may have been lagging so Sowerby were trying to 'tempt' buyers with new 'fancy' glass products by adding Tortoiseshell, New Marble Glass, Aesthetic Green, Enamelled Opaque Glass and Stained Blanc de Lait etc etc. to their range of products.
The descriptor 'stained' may refer to the tint, green or pink as per Bernard, or it may refer to the applied stain. I still tend to agree with Bernard.
Mike
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Mike, thanks very much for your time explaining all this info, and your fantastic website, attached is a frosted nursery rhyme pieces which I just got permission from “Retarkell” to use, I don’t think this colour is mentioned either in the catalogue, I can only refer to this as frosted.
By the way what’s your opinion on the Grython vases, personally I think they’re more swan like? Cheers Mike
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Here are the swan as discussed.
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Mike, I saw that frosted nursery rhyme piece, very nice. Some time ago I had a clear Sowerby salt with frosted decoration, I knew it had been acid etched because it had a fingerprint etched into it.
I have a couple of the swan/gryphon vases, I usually use the name 'swan' vases. I always assumed they were made by Edward Moore because of the colours. I don't think Sowerby ever made items in caramel and a peppermint green, both of which I have seen used in these vases.
Years ago I met a dealer in the Portabello Road who had one of these vases. I asked if it was for sale and he said he was keeping it for a customer who collected them. The customer already had 26 of them in different colours.
A bit like the little baskets with 'nipples' that are fairly common, I must have seen them in about 20 different colours, again I assumed they were be made by Edward Moore.
Someone told me that because you sometimes see the swan vases with gold highlights that they must be Sowerby because Edward Moore did not have an enamelling shop. Not sure about this.
They may have originally been from a Sowerby mould, but it just does not 'look' like a Sowerby design to me. The Sowerby factory had a foundry and mould shop, perhaps Edward Moore commissioned them to make the mould.
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For viewers of the thread to show which items are under discussion, here are two of the 'Griffin/Gryphon/(Swan - but could referring to them as Swan vases cause confusion a) between these and the Sowerby vases and also b) they look like Swans, in chains, but have a clawed foot it seems to me? )' vases that are in the V&A collection.
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O7150/vase-edward-moore/
The V&A has them as 'probably Edward Moore' but it seems there is no definitive id on this vase so far.
These are different to the Swan vases from Sowerby which appear on the Advertisement referred to earlier in the thread (see bottom photo here)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72358.msg402660.html#msg402660
Lots of information on this 'Edward Moore'? Griffin / Gryphon vases on this previous thread here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46854.msg263492.html#msg263492
Found in museum in Brno one which is apparently 25cm tall.
Also someone on that thread apparently had them id'd as by Edward Moore however I couldn't see a reference source for that on the thread:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46854.msg276376.html#msg276376
Angela said -
Quote:
Yes you are right, I sent pictures to the curator of Glass - Angus McDonald, at South Shields Museum, he has been writing a book about South Shields glass baron Edward Moore. He very kindly rang me and we had a long chat about this piece and he says it is by Moore. ;D
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Flying free, thanks for putting that together, the V&A also have a “St Louis” large malachite Sphinx figurine on their database attributed to Sowerby Gateshead! I did notify them that they may want to change their attribution, they replied, but still have it as Sowerby. No wonder people struggle with attributions.
Regards Mike
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Flying free, thanks for putting that together, the V&A also have a “St Louis” large malachite Sphinx figurine on their database attributed to Sowerby Gateshead! I did notify them that they may want to change their attribution, they replied, but still have it as Sowerby. No wonder people struggle with attributions.
Regards Mike
I agree. And for my part it feels uncomfortable questioning an identification from a museum. It's often difficult to know how much access to archived resource they might have. Resource we might not be privy to. Therefore questioning something becomes more difficult.
Having said that, I think if they identify something they should put the resource on that identification, so at least it can be followed up. I do sometimes adopt the 'well it's not verified by a stated resource therefore I can question' angle.
(and sometimes even if they do put a source of info, I still feel the need to question. See Queen Victoria uranium glass bowl thread :) :) )
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The Chamber Street Museum in Edinburgh has bits by somebody who tends to be referred to as "a Scottish Glassmaker" which are labelled Monart and in their Monart section. I've told them. They are not interested.
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I think it's just quite difficult to keep on top of all new information when there is limited resource in terms of time and people.
Glass also often takes a back seat compared to silver and china/pottery and paintings. I've no idea why because it seems to me the works of art in glass are many times more difficult to create than those in silver or china.
I went to the Musee des Art Decoratifs in Paris with a non-glassy friend recently. When I explained how some of the opalines were developed and also how some of the art nouveau pieces and pate de verre were made, she was suddenly completely intrigued by the complexity of the glass. She had assumed in her head that they were all just blown into a mold in some way, in different colours, so was about to walk on. Afterwards her comment was if the museum had actually written some of this information on how the pieces were made and placed it alongside the pieces on display, then she'd have been much more interested in reading about them and looking at them.
It's a crying shame when the complexity and history of these stunning pieces of glass art (whether handblown masterpieces or pressed glass rare objects ) is lost amongst the oil paintings and giant bits of silver. They're missing a trick in engaging a wider audience.
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For viewers of the thread to show which items are under discussion, here are two of the 'Griffin/Gryphon/(Swan - but could referring to them as Swan vases cause confusion a) between these and the Sowerby vases and also b) they look like Swans, in chains, but have a clawed foot it seems to me? )' vases that are in the V&A collection.
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O7150/vase-edward-moore/
The V&A has them as 'probably Edward Moore' but it seems there is no definitive id on this vase so far.
These are different to the Swan vases from Sowerby which appear on the Advertisement referred to earlier in the thread (see bottom photo here)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72358.msg402660.html#msg402660
Lots of information on this 'Edward Moore'? Griffin / Gryphon vases on this previous thread here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46854.msg263492.html#msg263492
Found in museum in Brno one which is apparently 25cm tall.
The 25cm tall one was in the Moravská gallery in Brno
Photographs here but no identification.
source: Pressglas-Korrespondenz 2006-4
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2006-4w-stopfer-moore-vase-schwaene.pdf
There is a strangely coloured green one here: (see page 7)
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2008-2w-vogt-slag-glass.pdf
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Original (?) price list here of Blanc-de-lait and Queen's Ivory Ware:
See page 437 for prices for January 1883 (? that was the date of the cover of the Report but didn't go through and check it was the same for the whole report) for every item produced it appears :o
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Commercial_Relations_of_the_United_State/gIs8AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=davenport+glass&pg=PA415&printsec=frontcover
on the subsequent pages from that - the prices of 'Opal, Turquoise, Gold, Jet and Malachite'( dated 1881?) Are these also Sowerby perhaps?
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I would say yes to your last question apart from “gold” which has left me a bit confused, although
Sowerby did add gold decoration to some items, ie you may have a jet black vase decorated with chains and swag and the chains and swag would be paint in gold. I’ve not come across anything from Sowerby from this era completely in gold colour.
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Should have looked on Mikes website victorianpressedglass.com as Gold is a reference to pale Amber.
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Well that's good to know :). Thank you. Hopefully the info might be useful even just in terms of the list of items produced perhaps. It's not an area I collect or know anything about but I always love a list :)
m
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As Mike says these are all Sowerby colours. The list is referring to prices from a catalogue from August 1881 but for some reason the illustrations from the catalogue have not been included.
"* It was not considered expedient to publish the illustrations sent by Consul Jones." (see page 417).
Sowerby pattern numbers have, in general, not been included in the price lists so it is impossible to tell which patterns the prices refer to.
A few pattern numbers are included in the lists, some with 3 numbers which are early. It's almost a list of all patterns produced by Sowerby up to this date.
The price list seems to cover domestic as well as ornamental coloured goods. It is also interesting to see Sowerby Venetian mentioned on page 440.
Nice find m.
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oh page 425 I did notice something
On the left hand column it says Finger cups Turqois edge. They were enormously expensive. I thought that might be Venetian?
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Looks like they could be Venetian. Are finger cups what we call finger bowls or rinsers?
Might be like the pair of bowls in the Gallery on this page:
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/sowerby_venetian.htm
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I think we decided on another thread that finger cups was a description for what we think of as finger bowls yes. The pair of bowl in the gallery I think would be too small for that description as they're only 10cm in diameter. Perhaps butters/master salts maybe?
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Actually I've just checked the price list of the Venetian on page 440 and there isn't a butter or salt in the list.
Perhaps they might have been their 'finger cups'? 10cm probably isn't that small diameter in reality and perhaps would have functioned as a finger rinser?
It also seems that the range 'Venetian' applies to the style rather than the green with blue because they say the 'Venetian' range is available in 'Flint' or 'Venetian green with turquoise tops'. So it's the handblown range/style that is called 'Venetian'. Not specifically green with turquoise rims. This is probably already known info, but I'd always assumed 'Sowerby Venetian' referred specifically to the blown glass range in green with turquoise applied rims.
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Well I have just tried and I can get my delicate (not) fingers in them, so we will call them finger rinsers.
Yes, Venetian is the style, available in flint and green although flint versions are rarer so maybe not so popular.
If you look at the pattern book page in the webpage there are two clear patterns shown and one of the glass jugs in the gallery is in clear flint glass.
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If the pair you own are Sowerby Venetian Finger cups in the green with turqoise rim then they were extremely expensive compared to their other finger cups - the most expensive by a long way. See page 427 of the linked report.
They cost 18 shillings per dozen versus their 'coloured' ones which were 6 shillings per dozen. Even the ones which were cut flutes and star were only 14 shillings per dozen.