Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Belgium and the Netherlands Glass => Topic started by: Lustrousstone on August 31, 2015, 05:26:18 PM
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This lovely art cut (Sue taught me that one) fruit bowl in amber cut to uranium has foiled my attempts at ID so far. Can anyone help please. It's unmarked and 8.5 or 21.5 cm diameter,.
(Many thanks to PC for importing it and no DE can't have it)
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I can see the point in cut glass when colour is involved - this is just lovely.
Can D or D have it? ;)
I think we need Nigel.
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agree it's very attractive, but so too is some clear Georgian cut glass from c. 1800 - in candlelight, limpid pools of shimmering leaden beauty ;) ;)
sorry, no idea as to provenance for this - how about Czechoslovakian - does it have any age related wear, or is it pristine, Christine ;D ;D
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It's certainly not new. My age guess would be 20-50s
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Val St Lambert made colour cut to uranium but I couldn't see anything on searching.
Hopefully Anne will be able to help if it is.
Gorgeous colours.
m
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I'm dim on this type of thing, but to my eyes it lacks the quality and breadth of cutting style you'd expect from VSL - much of which has more of a deco or modernist cutting pattern, and not a simple naturalistic style like Christine's, which doesn't appear to be style of cutting from the '20's or '30's. I'd still plump for Czech., perhaps German.
If you look at examples of Novy Bor (Karel Wunsch) cut bowls in Mark Hill's book - which I know are different colours, lack Uranium and are abstract cutting styles - but there is some similarity of modern coloured casing/cut to clear, which made me think of Czech. Could be well wrong of course.
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It does rather lack the "monumental-ish-ness" of VSL coloured and cut stuff. (I have rung doorbells on some posh London street to get into the sort of shop which has them, doing my "tourist" act.)
I do have a fabulous coloured Karel Wunsch cut vase from '64 - the cutting is far less naturalistic and more geometric than your bowl, Christine.
The joys come from all the profiles made by the cuts in the colours, as you rotate it. It can start looking like Easter Island heads or even devils sometimes. :)
I imagine this is a keeper, Christine? It's absolutely glorious, whatever it is. The most important thing is, its yours. ;D
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Paul I agree. I mention because the amber looks orange rather than amber and I found this
http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/144355/scarce-c1920-val-st-saint-lambert-richepin-saarloius-orange-cut-to-clear-wine-hock-glass/
Also they did do cut to uranium ( though I've not found anything in this colour over uranium admittedly :-[ )
And also, I've been searching cut overlay glass for glass with an 8 point star cut on it and seemed to recall that the only maker I'd come across (apart from Russian (possibly Baccarat though I thought) and Boston and Sandwich (possibly) so far) that had a star, appeared to be VSL). ;D
But I do agree. It's not as contemporary looking really, but once you view it in the round it's quite spectacular with the cutting and colours.
m
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managed to find one amber over uranium VSL vase here - just for comparison
https://leverreetlecristal.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/leon-ledru-1855-1926-directeur-artistique-chez-val-saint-lambert-belgique/
m
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see one above this in my post
and this one
http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Schale-mit-Uberfang-und-Tiefschnitt-Dekor-Val-St-Lambert-um-1900-/252076785477?hash=item3ab0f27f45
and another where the comment is that the pink over uranium creates an orange effect
http://www.antiques-belgium.com/joly-antiquites/724.html
I know they are not identical but I think VSL worth investigating.
m
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Thanks for those links M. I had considered VSL as a possibility but those you found look more sophisticated. Mine is definitely amber over uranium. not pink.
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Colourwise, the first of M's links is very convincing. It mentions overlays of green, yellow and amber, but I assume the uranium is what's being mistaken for the 'green overlay'. VSL was my first thought as well for C's bowl.
Forgot to say: it's only on loan Christine... ;D
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:P to you DE
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Besides the fact that it's a nice piece, I also find this one a really tricky one... the shape of the bowl is not unfamiliar but then the pattern is ... and they did use this orange which they called 'Aurore' ...why they had to call it like that when everybody else in the world calls it orange, is a mystery to me, but that's beside the point...
All previous comments make sense, it could well be VSL .... but as mentioned before, the pattern is unusual and the symmetry not what you'd expect from this period.
From what I have been told is that they stopped the uranium crystal quite early, once they realised it could affect heath and used coloured glass instead. Therefor not much is known or left documentation wise, but usually you'd see a stronger colour, ranging front reds and pinks, to green and different shades of blue.
I'll have a look in my books to see what else is mentioned about VSL and this type of glass once I'm back home ... I'm abroad for work at the moment..... sorry I can't be of more help for now....
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I shall wait to hear from you, thank you. (I saw a VSL exhibition at the Leerdam museum and the cut to uranium stuff was to die for)
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but usually you'd see a stronger colour, ranging front reds and pinks
Don't you just love auto spelling ::) .... ranging from reds etc... sorry, noticed too late...
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Anne - don't worry in the slightest - a very minor and obvious typographical error :) normally, your English is impeccable.
However, there's a high frequency of mis-spelling of words such as their and too, which is surprising from people who have English as their first tongue ......... and then there are folk who say...... ""well, what does it matter - you know what I mean, so wos the problem" :)
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And there are the folk like me with my black marker pen, and white-out, eliminating grocers' apostrophes from posters or adding them, if required for the possessive ... ;)
(Then getting a lovely message from Kev, who had kindly refrained from pointing out my spelling mistook and lack of spaces here. In time for me to correct them!)
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And there are the folk like me with my black marker pen, and white-out, eliminating grocers'apostropes from posters or adding them, if required for the possessive ... ;)
Yeah, same here but it makes such a mess on my screen.
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personally, I avoid cliches like the plague ;) :-*
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:D Even that one's become a cliché :-*
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thought I'd just add this link here anyway, just in case.
I don't know anything about VSL or cut glass for that matter, but I have noticed that on some VSL items there appears to be a 'pattern' or 'thing' for cartouche type shapes. So on yours the cut-out cartouche contain the stars (if it is VSL)
on this one they contain flowers
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/bowls/art-deco-val-st-lambert-crystal-glass-bowl/id-f_780328/
Obviously you are waiting on further information and this design effect might be something seen on many cut glass items(as I said I've no idea)but I have noticed a 'thing/marker' for it on some of VSL's products.
Also the only other maker I can think of that did colour over colour in this manner is Stevens and Williams. I do have a cut glass blue over pale blue and clear that I was told was Austrian plant pot c.1930. So presumably other companies might have been doing this style but I can't think who to be honest.
m
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Well, having returned yesterday from MIA, I find myself this morning, sat on the floor with a coffee and about 25 books littered around me ... big deception because not a word is mentioned about this type of glass.... not even in the book from Joseph Philippe, which is considered by many as the VSL Bible.... I'll never open it again! :D ... I definitely would have expected to find something in this book :-\
There are a few examples in catalogues from the 30ies, where it is only mentioned that the item is made of 'Cristal Urane' but nothing further on colour schemes, design patterns or even basically the production ... it's from my contact at VSL, a 'maitre-tailleur' that I have heard, that they stopped using uranium oxide for health reasons, and if I'm not mistaken, this was in the 30ies/40ies.
It is true that designs from this period often have a central decorative point, as mentioned above, but for me personally, this is not enough to say it is or it isn't VSL .... my gut instinct says it isn't but one has never seen everything and I've been wrong before.... so as they say over here ... je me réserve ...
I need to return to VSL, to have a couple of items repolished and I'll ask again this week ... also, the shop's still open (funny that, the factory's closed for production right now, but they continue selling) and behind the counter, there's an office where they keep a lot of catalogues. One of the ladies working there has been kind enough in the past to help me out with any questions I had, but the other one is practically wearing a 'Do not disturb' sign, so if I'm lucky, and if you don't mind me showing the images in this thread, I'll ask for further information, and see what they can tell me.... fingers crossed.
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Thanks for looking Anne. It would be really good if you could ask the nice lady. The bowl did come from the Netherlands and the relatively simple style and edge style (semi-circular cuts) do not seem out of place for VSL according to one catalogue I found online (Corning I think)
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Is that the 1919-1930 Fantasy Crystal catalogue, Christine?
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I think so; I forgot to bookmark it
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http://www.vsl-history.be/catalogues1900.htm
You should be able to scroll down on this link and see the catalogues post 1900
On the left in the link there are further links.
I have had a look but not been able to find - sorry.
Cristaux de Fantaisie is there as well
m
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I had a look in it before and I just did again.... the Fantasy Cristal catalogue, for the international and mainly American market, that I have is incomplete, I have 2/3 of it ... the 1926 catalogue 'Cristaux de Fantaisie' for the Belgian and French market that I have here, is complete but the range is smaller... no surprise when 70-90% of the production was made for export ... the shape is there but you would have to agree with me that you could find this shape anywhere ... so for me, that doesn't confirm one or the other ...
I haven't come across anything that has the same pattern, or even anything that looks like it, but for now, that doesn't mean anything, I'd like to keep all options open ... we'll see what they say at HQ :D
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Sorry, just crossed messages... the link is the site of Philippe Collard, if I'm not mistaken, but the catalogues are just 'announced' if you like, you can't open them, unless I'm doing something wrong ... unfortunately he hasn't continued working on this site... it's been like this for yonks ....
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Anne, what date is the Cristaux de Fantaisie produced please? is it earlier than 1940's?
Thank you
Yes you can open them and scroll down but they are quite small, they do not enlarge to full screen I'm afraid.
Shame, because it looked as though there might be some good information on there.
Shame he didn't open it up to others to add information as they found it or something similar.
m
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Yes it is earlier than 1940, the American 'Fantasy Crystal' catalogue dates 1919-1930 and the French version has 1926 on it, but there are some pieces in it that date back to 1920, that got included in it. I've got several examples on my Pinterest page ... sorry, I'm not advertising myself but it's all there ... just search for Val St Lambert and you should come across it. If I need to translate, just let me know....
Back to that site, for instance the mentioned 1926 Fantasy Crystal catalogue, which is dated 1908 and incorrect on this site .... I only get three pages on my screen and nothing opens or happens when I click on anything, so I must be doing something wrong? ???
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ah, I can't do pinterest I'm afraid - it insists I enter details and sign up so I refuse :)
m
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That held me back quite some time too, until I realized it was free ;D ... ::)
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That's a fantastic pinterest board Anne ;D. I can't find the catalogue on Corning now
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Thank you Christine. I try to add as much info possible to each piece ... to sort of create my own reference material ...
I have never managed to get the Corning version but there's a preview page with the very long link underneath... sorry, for that... would appreciate it if a moderator could change it to a shorter link ...
[Mod: A bit late, but link now changed to clickable text version: Click Here (https://books.google.be/books?id=TcGVi6pcBwkC&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=val+st+lambert+fantasy+crystal&source=bl&ots=b0CTBrt9_-&sig=lITmHr8o_p4qX2sm_rUJLeH1PTw&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMIyOCxlafdxwIVirwUCh1noAd9#v=onepage&q=val%20st%20lambert%20fantasy%20crystal&f=false)
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That's the one
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And if you try again at some time, another part comes up, which is a different preview, both together just under 100 pages.
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not sure if this is the same shape - it looks slightly different but perhaps photo angle?
Also have no idea if id is correct but appears to be three layers.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-STEVENS-WILLIAMS-RAINBOW-CUT-GLASS-VASE-/321592284606?hash=item4ae064d5be
Looks as though it has been a 'rainbow' swirl bowl cased in blue and then cut through to me :-\
m
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That's a nice one. Shape is not quite the same though
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The cutting on the S&W is a bit more angular and "traditional" than on your mystery, which is more flowing and (stylised) leafy.
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yes can see it's completely different in 'spirit' but just adding it for comparison.
Also different eras will mean different designs I think? So what I mean is that although that one is more 'traditional' in design, it's not to say the same company didn't do more 'arty' versions at a later date if you see what I mean?
how tall is your bowl Christine because that one is the same diameter as yours I think.
m
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Haven't been to VSL to ask yet but it's planned later this week...
The shape's known at VSL, but again, not seen the pattern before... here's a link of a similar shape, different pattern ..... had it in my hands a little while ago and the cutting was a bit more delicate ....
http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/Imposant-coupe-centre-de-table-en-Val-saint-Lambert-piece-unique-signe-T657-91-/391091483882?hash=item5b0ede74ea (http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/Imposant-coupe-centre-de-table-en-Val-saint-Lambert-piece-unique-signe-T657-91-/391091483882?hash=item5b0ede74ea)
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That one looks similar again Anne but is bigger isn't it and so quite a bit deeper than either the S&W ebay one or Christine's I think. Both look very slightly less 'squared' off at the bottom than Christine's but that might just be angles again.
Christine is it possible to add a photo of yours angled or rather tilted towards the camera slightly, showing an elipse of the rim all the way round as per the ebay one? It's helpful to see them at the same angle and also there is the other VSL bowl I posted that is angled tilted like that as well.
thanks :)
m
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Yes, it is a size up but already in the 20ies they did models in different sizes, but anyway, it was just a reference re shape... we'll no for sure whether it is VSL or not later this week.
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Although unusual, I thought English when I first saw the post. It will be interesting how the ID turns out...
Robert (bOBA)
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I have been yesterday, and unfortunately I had to deal with 'the wicked witch'... as expected, she was way too 'busy' to deal with my requests ::) ... had a quick look at your bowl but couldn't say whether it was or not, with me running after her through the shop :D... funny (not as in funny haha) how some people get so caught up in their self importance, they won't allow any space for anybody else ... in the end I'm not asking for the end of the world, if you know what I mean ... just 5 minutes of their time ...
My 'repairman' had a look as well.... he basically said the same thing as I have ... it could well be, but he'd expect to see a clearer 'taillage' or cut on the bowl.... he also mentioned, and he's said it before, that for some reason, not everything was catalogued, but why is a mystery...
I went to drop off some pieces that need to be repolished because of the odd, tiny chip here and there, but I need to return to collect these items again of course, so hopefully, when I'll ask again, the younger and more helpful lady will be there....
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Thank you for asking. Good luck next time
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Apparently Gräfliche Josephinenhütte Siegfried Haertel c.1930
http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Art-Deco-Kristall-Glas-Vase-Grafliche-Josephinenhutte-Siegfried-Haertel-um-1930-/252004454295?hash=item3aaca2cf97
apparently these also and they have an 8 point cut star not a 6 point
http://www.ebay.de/itm/JOSEPHINENHUTTE-Glas-Karaffe-6-Glaeser-Dekor-SIEGFRIED-HAERTEL-1921-/381312633779?nma=true&si=NuN%252Fan0oLfi8n5Sxnh7C8FM03VI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
may be worth investigating. I don't have the books unfortunately as I'd love someone to check up on my blue lidded cup as well.
m
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Sorry for the long wait, but it always takes a little while to have enough pieces to drop off and do the 1,5 hour drive, but today I have been again to have several pieces repaired and popped in while I passed the showroom, to ask about your bowl and some of my own pieces.
The 'unhelpful' lady was absent... thank goodness ... and somebody from the office had to be called forward, to answer my questions, and I very much appreciated that they found a few spare minutes to answer my questions.... I learned that things are up and running again at VSL, and they are very busy reorganizing and preparing the opening of a shop in Dubai. The few minutes turned out into nearly an hour, and not because of me, but the designer, Delvaux.
I'm no groupie, but this gentleman is the son of Delvaux who worked for VSL ages ago, who was an apprentice of Charles Graffart himself ... I nearly wet myself! To meet somebody directly linked to a very important period and designer at VSL, who's only human too of course, but I only know about from my books, was ... well ... the girls probably understand me when I say better than chocolate. :D
He took one look at the bowl ands said it definitely was made by VSL, the registration for the shape is n° 1402, and a rough date he put on it was 1900-1920. He did admit that not many houses did this kind of crystal, which made it easy for him to identify it. He did explain that certain patterns are not always registered, as VSL was not the most disciplined of companies when it came to that, but more important, they encouraged designers and cutters to be creative and artistic, as long as it was in harmony with the item and period, and therefor certain pieces might be different from one another.
I had my tablet with me and he wanted to see my own collection, which I did of course, and he was very impressed and at one point ecstatic, not only with the pieces but also with the quality of images and he wants to use my pictures for his own work, as reference and inspiration for future designs! I can't believe it! To be able to provide photos and images, to help re-launch VSL ... my wildest dream come true 8) ... I did put in as condition, that I am not to blame if it doesn't work out.
So thank you for posting this bowl, because without it, I wouldn't have had the morning that I did ... I'm still on a high :)
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Yesssss ;D
Anne thanks for posting about your visit (sounds wonderful and very exciting) and confirming it's VSL.
m
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That is wonderful. Thank you very much. :-* I'm glad you had such a wonderful morning on the back of my bowl ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patricia will be delighted to know her instincts were good but David may not talk to me again as he is in lust with the bowl and was most put out when he couldn't have it (it was bought specifically for me)
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:-* I'm glad you had such a wonderful morning on the back of my bowl ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
:D Oh, I'm happy to admit that, without the bowl I wouldn't have experienced this.
I already felt a bit privileged as my repairman only now does work for Louis Leloup, who's working on his museum in Brussels... et moi!
Can you imagine though, that a designer at the manufacturer that you're so passionate about goes like .... 'eeehm ... I have to congratulate you on your collection and the quality of the images.... there are pieces I've never seen before... and eeehhhm ...can I use them as reference?' .... well what can I say to that? .... obviously the guy's got taste! ;D lol.
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Well he can have my pictures too if they are of any help. Your collection is lovely
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Thank you very much, I will pass them on.
Sorry for sounding a bit 'me, me and me' but this is so exciting...
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I'm just glad you had such a good time
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Patricia will be delighted to know her instincts were good but David may not talk to me again as he is in lust with the bowl and was most put out when he couldn't have it (it was bought specifically for me)
Grrrrrrrrrrr :( >:( :-X ;D
But I am glad it's finally ID'ed - thanks to Anne of Tique :)
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This one is in a similar style (can't remember if I linked it before)- you need a collection ;D
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/42381897_jardiniere-belgien
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I probably do need that one, but not at that price LOL
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Wonderful news on all fronts.
Anne - I so understand - I turn into something resembling what used to be called a "teenybopper" when faced with an artist I admire. It's really embarrassing.
But then to be treated as an equal or as if I have something to say or contribute, I'd glow so red I'd vanish in a puff of smoke.
I'm really happy for you that you've had such fun. :D
And even happier that you will be having more. 8)
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Great thread, well done Anne, GMB at its best, a happy ending,
Robert (bOBA)
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And then to think I almost didn't buy it.
Luckily the antique fair was close to home so I went back for it.
And the price was so low :) :o I thought oh well, it can always be used in the kitchen.
I'm glad so many people got direct or indirect enjoyment out of it.
Patricia
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I thought you might like to see this. Sold through Sotheby's in 2007 under Russian Sale Works of Art.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.389.lotnum.html/2007/russian-sale-works-of-art-faberge-l07113
'A silver-mounted coloured glass claret jug, Adrian Ivanov, Moscow, 1908-1917
the tapering orange and yellow body cut with diamond facets within elipses, the handle and collar with chased bands of stylised grapes and vine leaves, knop finial, 84 standard
height: 29.2cm, 11 1/2 in'
I have seen uranium glass used in Russian Glass and dredging my memory, something makes me think I also have seen a two colour overlay glass piece in a museum collection in Russia, but as I recall that was dark green over yellow I think. No makers label on it though as I remember checking.
However, the shape and the notching up the neck of the body look familiar as 'VSL' identifiers perhaps, so an option is that the body is VSL and the silver is Russian.
m
m
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Not really linked to Christine's bowl as it's different design and different colours, but the discussion sometimes comes up re coloured overlay glass cut over uranium glass.
I've just come across a very dark red cut bowl cut to uranium on a Russian site, similar shape to this one but different design and it is being sold as J. Riedel. I don't know if that id is correct or not ( I don't have the Riedel book and my knowledge of Riedel glass is absolutely minimal) but just thought I'd add the info in case the discussion re cut to uranium comes up again.
https://www.livemaster.ru/item/30057305-vintazh-vaza-dlya-fruktov-salatnitsa-uranovoe-steklo-j-riedel
m
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and another from Wilhelm Steigerwald Regenhütte:
https://antikes-glas.de/en/regenhuette/stemmed-glass-roman-wilhsteigerwald-regenhuette-1920-p-1070.html
also orange coloured glass over uranium - the bowl cut and coloured orange over uranium, the stem clear
m
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Hey M,
I had not noticed your message from January ::)
Your theory's correct, the body of the jug is by VSL. I don't think it has been altered but a customised order. It is illustrated in the 1908 catalogue as a decanter without the silver mounting and is called 'Sabine', shape and pattern both have this name. Normally the neck would have been bit longer and with stopper it would have been available in two sizes, 32,5 cm and 25 cm. They probably had to shorten the neck otherwise the handle would have ended up too high on this piece, it would have been too heavy at the bottom, making using it awkward and difficult to incline to pour whatever it was filled with.
I have learned recently that at VSL at the time anything was possible, different patterns on different models, anything could be discussed and customised and this is one of the reasons that a lot is not catalogued and as this jug was made to order, it wouldn't have been catalogued anyway. I have often wondered why a lot is not documented but this makes sense. Imagine being invited at a high society dinner party at the time. Your crystal glassware was a statement and you didn't want the same as mr and mrs X ... you wanted something even better and more impressive, just to show off and show everybody how well-off you were. VSL, amongst other i guess, played in on this and basically created an 'options menu', from which you could choose and actually, that still excists today. The finished product wasn't and isn't just that, it can be personalised and altered to any requirements.
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Hi :)
That's good to know. Thank you for providing all the details. I thought it looked 'familiar'.
It doesn't surprise me that items could be customised.
I have read somewhere (don't quote me), that glass from VSL was supplied to the USA for cutting as well iirc.
m
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No that is incorrect, everything was done on the spot. The technique however, did come from America and the name 'taille americaine' or American cut is still used today.
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flying free said:
'I have read somewhere (don't quote me), that glass from VSL was supplied to the USA for cutting as well iirc.'
Anne Tique said:
'No that is incorrect, everything was done on the spot. The technique however, did come from America and the name 'taille americaine' or American cut is still used today.'
Thank you for clarifying that.
m
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This is one from the Hermitage Museum collection c.1843
Gold ruby glass over green:
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/wcm/connect/88acff60-75e4-4300-be1a-79bacb4a413d/WOA_IMAGE_1.jpg?MOD=AJPERES&06a9159f-a5b6-4b6e-8f92-f6b2e378c9f7
Quote
"Medici" Vase
Place of creation:
Russia
Manufacture, workshop, firm:
Imperial Glass Factory
Authors:
Designed by: Ivanov, Ivan (?). 1779-1848
Date:
c.1843
Material:
two-layered glass: "gold ruby" and green, bronze
Technique:
carving, painted in gold
Dimensions:
50,0x20,0x20,0 cm
Acquisition date:
Entered the Hermitage in 1962; purchased from a private person
Inventory Number:
ЭРС-2500
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.%20applied%20arts/990252/!ut/p/z1/04_Sj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfIjo8zi_R0dzQyNnQ28_J1NXQwc_YMCTIOc_dwNDE30w8EKDHAARwP9KGL041EQhd94L0IWAH1gVOTr7JuuH1WQWJKhm5mXlq8fYWChp5BYUJCTmZqikFhUUqwfYWlpYGRqBHRPFJqJnt7mQBNDTD38_cOcjZxNoArwuKkgNzSiysfDINNRUREAqxx8DA!!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?lng=en
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Dear all, I can confirm this is a Val Saint Lambert Uranium and orange vase - both colours have been discontinued since many years.
I'd attribute this model to Joseph Simon judging on the cut and the model would be made around 1920-1935