Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: APEXantiques on March 03, 2024, 05:38:26 PM
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Hello ladies & gents,
I recently came across this lovely pair of emerald green fading to clear specimen vases that to my eye appear to be almost certainly Bohemian in origin, dating to the last quarter of the 19th Century. As you'll note, each has a band of diamond pattern cutting towards the upper rim and the upper edges are mounted with what appear at first glance to be English Hallmarked Sterling Silver rims. Upon closer inspection however it becomes immediately evident that they most certainly are not English Hallmarks but what seem to be examples of the legendary Austro-Hungarian Hanau Silversmiths (so called) "Pseudo Marks" (for more info see https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html ).The cooler, form, style and cutting of the glass itself lead me to believe the vases were Bohemian though I am without any further proof however this would tie in perfectly with the maker of the mounts being Hanau based but as I am still yet positively ascribe a silversmith to the hallmark, my whole theory is nothing more than that!
Finally to my question... Is anyone able to confirm or deny my theory &/or provide any further information or leads/direction of further study on these lovely little vases?
Many thanks to all who read and special thanks to those who may choose to answer.
Aaron L K from APEX
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Hi, it’s hard to make out the detail in your photograph of the hallmarks but they look very like those for London 1904/5? That would also be close to your estimated age of the glass. https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Dates/London/Date%20Letters%20I.html
My understanding is that the glass was imported to England, then the silver rims were made and attached in England before retail, see here: https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/127999-mustard-tango-glass-vase-with-london-hal
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I'll post another photo, it is definitely not an English hallmark, the punch shapes are totally different for starters.
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Apparently it was not unusual for foreign silver marks to be overstamped with English ones. The lion rampant, i and what looks like a leopard's head do appear to be the London mark for 1904.
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I would have thought people knowledgeable enough to render an opinion on the matter would be observant enough to notice that although there is a leopard head & a lion GARANT (not rampant), not only are the punch shapes different but the actual images are completely different from those used in the 1904 (or any) hallmark.
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So you can accurately compare
Note the difference in punch shapes, the lack of detail on the vase punches, even the way the area around the lion or leopard head is raised on the vase but punched in as one would expect on the example mark. The most important detail is the punch shape however. These changed with the year just like date letters did and are considered an extra layer of security when read in combination with the date letters.
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I’m aware that the punch shape changed (presumably you’re referring to the shield shape). Observing purely from the supplied photograph of your rim, the shapes of the shields were made with the same shaped punches as for your clearer example in the latest photograph.
I believe the differences you see are due to the rim of your vase being such a very thin gauge of metal. The thin metal wouldn’t take the impression from the punch as well as something more solid, plus it is more likely to loose definition due to wear and minor denting. If you look at other similar thin rims you will see the hallmarks affected in the same way. Below is an eBay link to an example of Birmingham hallmarks with similar “raised” areas you mention.
We can agree to disagree :) It might be worth enquiring about the hallmark on specialist silver forums, it would be interesting to hear what they say.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196260539106?itmmeta=01HRFM605SQEYT8ZWS97S9KAWD&hash=item2db20a2ae2:g:KkUAAOSwQudl2NDx&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0KlmQ0Jage5rmLU47k3euhrYR8E2VG%2F25BMy%2Bd7PJ8XJPkTRHH4k8%2B3yo7DsiWDjBLoX3f9LrpCmoxeVmSNiiVHqQqv3S2bTKU1tyg0mxJ3ZhdqRPFSOF1RQgsMsgL%2B9TJEDmSUg5VEJh3KKwTNYGm8IbGmTWifMSqtiIlUz5CGp5IKi56%2FdoxVLgll%2BGp4hFHtQX1b6ZEXeFWn4EwbJLATQO%2FQHD9QkwKsKuz5N4p%2FSlZeMnng4vxnhuZe2PGqoty7nK28DvdetQKaD9L9fLTM%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4CDmPTDYw
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I have been involved in trading silver for almost 20 years (Sheesh, scary!!! First time I've ever worked out how long I've been at it) and am beyond familiar with the English Hallmarking system and (though I live to learn) would be shocked if these were genuine English hallmarks for any year.
Firstly, you'll note that all three punches on the example are the same shape (outline), this is not the case with the vase.
For example, If you look at the leopards head for example, notice how on the example the punch is only pointed at the bottom & has an "m" like shape at the top? On the vase, it is pointed at both the top and the bottom. Each of the punches has similar inaccuracies.
I posted here as I was hoping someone would have specific knowledge of whomever may have been making these kinds of vases &/or the company that may have been mounting these kinds of vases (specifically). Alas I think I was aiming a bit high with the kind of information I sought.
Additionally, there is no registered makers mark that matches the mark on the vase.
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My mistake on the lion rampant, I assume you mean lion GARDANT. As for the vase itself it is difficult to attribute a specific maker, there were several who made this sort of thing, it's not a shape I've seen before. A few examples here.
https://www.thegildedcurio.com/
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Unfortunately atrocious spelling comes with the territory growing up with ADHD (now growing old with it!!).
So we are in agreement that they were in all likelihood made in Bohemia towards the latter part of the 19th or very early 20th Centuries correct?
As it happens, technically we were both wrong about the lion... Despite what the hallmark literature says, it is actually a lion Passant. Passant, Gaurdant, Regardant refers to the position of the lions head (Front, side...as in looking at the viewer and back... looking towards it's tail respectively). That's all without even touching on the position of the lions feet!
This kind of reinforces my point (VERY loosely) ... Even though not immediately apparent, it's the the very minor details like the combination of font, case, punch shape etc that confirms the validity of a mark in the English Hallmarking system. If just one of those things on one of the punches is not correct, it invalidates the mark entirely.
It really is an ingenious system, almost like the 1500's version of 2 factor authentication for Sterling Silver. I guess at the time it was instituted, silver was still regarded as money so they needed a system as watertight and foolproof as minting a coin for authenticating and certifying it's authenticity.
Gone are the days that the word Money & the word Silver are synonymous unfortunately. Most people these days would have no idea that £1- (1 Pound Sterling) actually represented One (troy) Pound of .925 (92.5% Pure) Silver and that each division thereof (6d, Shilling, Florin etc) was a division of the weight of that Pound of silver. (20 Shillings, 40 6d or 10 Florins in fact!).
Anyway, I'm off topic now!!!
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I usually blame auto correct for spelling mistakes…I think it screws up my grammar too.
I understand what you are saying about the hallmarks, but they are over 100 years old and on very thin sheet. Another thing to consider is why would someone bother putting fake marks on such a small piece of silver - would doing so add value?
Not trying to change minds, but I think the maker of the silver is probably David Loebl, Schindler & Co. Looking at other silver rims of theirs, I believe it fits with what can be seen of the remaining makers mark.
There is some information on the company in the link below. It says they imported mainly Rindskopf and Kralik. The reason given for attaching silver rims is so that the vases could be sold in jewellers rather than just home wear stores.
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/114916-rindskopf-green-and-yellow-marbled-vase
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I don't use auto-spell, especially not on these forums, for some reason it ends up typing over already typed text when I go back and edit already typed text!!
I don't for a moment think the hallmarks are forgeries, as the title of the thread says, I think they may be Hanau Pseudo Marks (see links earlier in the thread). It was very common for the Hanau Silversmiths to imitate English hallmarks very closely but not so closely as to infringe. One other point to note is that the marks are also out of order. (Not unheard of but usually these kinds of wares were well marked).
I'm actually surprised you used that mark as an example. That is clearly an English Hallmark...same shaped punches, clear devices (lion, leopard etc), correct order and the makers mark only resembles the one on the vases here in that both aren't easily read in the pictures supplied. That hallmark has everything this mark is missing. Please, take a look at them side by side.
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At the end of my last post I meant “homeware”. I wasn’t using that hallmark or makers mark on that particular vase as an example to compare with yours but included the link for the description of the company. As I said, I looked at other examples of rims from David Loebl that are easy to find using Google if people are interested.
An additional comment on the hallmarking system is that the stamps were made by hand so weren’t all identical. For example, if people compare the clear but worn hallmarks for London 1904 on the links below, they can see they are different. The proportions of the shields, the size of the device inside the shield compared to the shields, the position of the device inside the shields, the date letter i (and the shields) are different, the shape of the lion’s legs etc. This is just on examples that I came across without much searching.
https://bassetlawsilverandantiques.com/products/edwardian-silver-coffee-pot-for-lieutenant-c-a-fremantle-royal-navy-london-1904-page-keen-page-18-troy-ounces
https://www.silver-collector.com/t/makers-mark-help-please-1904-london-candlesticks/15197
Then these stamps are applied by hand to a piece of thin metal that isn’t flat. That metal might then be worked by the silver smith, and in this case, fitted to a vase. It is then subject to 100 plus years of abuse and polishing. I don’t think it’s surprising that the marks can look different to a documented standard, but that’s just my opinion.
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I've spent more than enough time defending the obvious.
All I can say is that I'm glad you aren't responsible for authenticating the antiques at my shop!!
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This forum is for glass.
Not for the incredibly complex vagaries of hallmarks on metalwork, which can often be added to glass long after it was made and in a completely different place.
It's not really anything that is of any use or interest to us.
And when silver gets stuck onto bits of glass, you start getting silver collectors interested in the thing instead of the glass and it can put prices out of our reach.
It's a completely different category. And not one we specialise in, just some of us know a little bit around the edges.
No one person can be a specialist in everything.
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Well said chopin-liszt, I'm with Ekimp on this one.
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Thanks Nev, good to know it’s not just me.
Silver mounts can be useful for dating and occasionally I’ve come across bits in the charity shops. I wouldn’t splash out on the fancy stuff, but for me that goes for plain glass too :) I don’t think there’s anything complicated about English hallmarks, especially later ones.