Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: twenty_zero_six on October 27, 2007, 10:09:20 AM
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Very sad news.... :(
http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149212&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232919&home=yes&more_nodeId1=149221&contentPK=18790318
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Well Kilmartin Property do announce on their website:
# Participate in public debate about sustainable development policy and targets.
# Monitor and publicise our achievements
Perhaps GMB members can help them publish their achievement about damaging the Scottish Glass infrastructure and job losses caused. I know that Dartington Glass are involved in this BUT, landlords have a moral responsibility to support their community by reducing rents to levels that reflect the decline in a businesses fortunes.
I have also posted a strong notice onto the front page of Scotland's Glass drawing attention to this issue!
Let us ensure this company gets lots of publicity on this issue, they could still change their mind so - not too aggressive or angry please.
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I have added the letter I sent to Kilmartin Properties to the notice on Scotland's Glass - I know other collectors have written too.
The more who write, the greater the impact and a even a chance that something will change!
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Kilmartin Property have responded, see here, http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
I have asked Dartington Crystal for their side of the story.
It will help if others contact Dartington Crystal too.
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Well done, Frank! :clap: And thank you :-* You're a star!
I sincerely hope Dartington, Kilmartin Property, et al can be prevailed upon!
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That's an interesting response Frank, and makes one wonder just what is going on within the Dartington company. Is it an about face, or is it a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing? I'm interested to read how Dartington respond to the Kilmartin revelations.
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I think it is quite possible that Dartington are just wanting the Caithness and Whitefriars names - a move to Crieff might keep things going just long enough to make it look like 'they tried' and recover some of the outlay. Of course speculation is pointless, just a natural reaction :angel:
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trust me Dartington wanted that Visitors Centre!! The Visitors Centre at Torrington is supurb and does very well - one of the reasons DC is still made in the UK, apart from the collectors society, theres not alot left of Caithness after Edinburgh destroyed it. The directors at DC have alot of links with Caithness of old, and they will look after the brand and the people as much as they can. As for the brands, dont forget DC brought the Selkirk name as well
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Perhaps they think Crieff will work because of the past visitor centre of PP. But that one was always empty when I visited, whereas Perth was always crowded.
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Dartington Crystal response has been added.
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I think the problem could well be an attitudinal clash that with compromise will mean one party losing face.
On the one hand the property company states to have provided a turnover related lease, which is a very fair approach that allows diversity to continue throughout difficult economic periods (Many leases are still set up on the basis of fixed rent with upward only reviews) and turnover related means rents can fall as well as rise. The benefit for the property company is that it maintains a stable letting of a prestigious client that will attract others to the development.
On the other hand Dartington claim that the redevelopment caused a weakening in trade and that they wish Caithness to survive.
What remains unclear is why Dartington think a move to Crieff would be beneficial as it will not have that large local tourist resource of Perth. I cannot see how on-going development work can have such an impact as we are all used to building work continuing around us - perhaps the car park was closed and people had to walk between building sites to get there? Has anyone visited Caithness this summer - how was your visit affected by the building work?
It would appear that a special rent had been in place for some time, to help CG through the takeover and I cannot help the cynical view that perhaps it ending was the only reason for migrating. Clearly we do not know the numbers but Caithness are a two edged company. There is an important market for collectors with some of the best paperweight makers in the country, world league, - yet Dartington has let some of these go already. Caithness also has a big 'name' in the gift trade, but the gift trade is highly competitive and there is little commercial sense in manufacturing for it within the UK. So perhaps they wish to maintain a core set of skills to retain design and medium to high quality production.
Looking at the Dartington portfolio, they have not really any giftware of significance so perhaps Caithness were to fill that gap - in which case they only need the designers. But they have already Royal Brierley, a richer and older name than Caithness, and have only one small range of barware on-line. Dartington do not appear to target the collecting market with the exception of 2 books sold on their site... On their site they have a small about us which paints a picture of a socially mature enterprise http://www.dartington.co.uk/info/aboutus_DCstory.html until you get to the last line when it states "Dartington now operates independently of the Trust." - So no current philosophy and clearly in the case of the disposition of Caithness they do not try, hard enough, and stick to that original philosophy either.
As I have often said, collectors are largely buying on the second market and while that helps a company name to develop, it does not help its cash flow directly. The UK economic policy tries to adopt the American commercial aptitude but fails the philosophy and only manages a "money first, people last" state. So companies that are ruthless in securing wealth for the core investors are regarded as 'good' and those that regard their employees as core are just seen as potential profits for vultures. I am currently preparing a 1947 report on the UK glass industry for the Glass-Study - it directly compare the UK glass industry to the US and Swedish glass industries and the envy of both of those shows a little. But also at that point there is some realism in recognising the different cultures involved. The modern business seems to have for gotten culture - instead the investors dream of joining that elite club of multi-nationals that aspire to be virtual countries in their own right.
What can we do about it? Nothing, they own and control their companies.
However... Collectors could join and set up a new co-operative making high-end art paperweights, also some for the tourists, and move into the premises Caithness vacate, getting the makers and designers will be no problem... they is a lot of unemployed skill in Perth. It is possible to largely avoid the need to develop a sales force to get products to the shops - it is doable via the Internet and dealers catering to paperweight collectors. If 500 collectors put in upto 1,000 pounds, there should be enough cash to get started, pay everyone piecework rates and the wages bill will reflect the business and give every worker a direct stake in success. To make that work would need a core group of 6 or 7 people to develop and execute the approach.
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Latest....
Caithness in Perth will close at the end of January, only 6 staff will move to Crieff which will clearly put JD ahead of Caithness in terms of skills pool and probably weight production too! The top skills are chopped.
It is unclear what they plan to do but I suspect they will continue just for the visitors centre sales and some gift trade stuff. I doubt they will last long in Crieff. The speed with which they have moved could suggest that they are following plans made at the time of the takeover!
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Stuart took over Strathearn, also in Crieff, and promptly stopped glass production. Everything then being made in England but with engraving continuing for the tourists. After a while they gave up. If you ever visited Strathearn, it was never bustling - usually the same person that you saw in PP over the road. Caithness, Perth on the other hand was always bustling, I never saw it on a quiet day although I am sure they must have had them. The Caithness shop had quite a few staff too.
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Theres no way it was a hidden agenda takeover, Dartington will only have wanted one thing - the Perth Visitors Centre because of how popular it is, and as the Visitors Centre in Devon is so popular (I often go there and its always busy) they obviously saw long term that they could develop this more here, but they had to arrest the decline in sales first - something which they obviously failed to to! and this has lead to what has happened. I dont think Dartington can be blamed for this, its just the state of the industry, we should be thankful Caithness is going to carry on at all! Im sure the decision to move to Crieff was met with another decision - close completly!
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Crieff is a small town with nothing for the tourist trade of note, it is/was a Mecca for paperweight collectors as they could get one off specials and pieces made to order. John Deacons is based there and quite a noteworthy team that use his Studio - some ex-Caithness. If Caithness has a future it is in the high end of paperweights with one of the best cutters Harry McKay (Booted out in first phase) rumour has it that HM and AS are out in January - clearly they are dropping the world class team and skill core, so only the gift trade is left. In that trade Caithness are no better than the Chinese who are gaining skills fast and other emerging markets, but without the low production costs. Perhaps the Visitors centre in Crieff will sell Chinese made Caithness weights, design in Devon and bearing the packed in Scotland sticker.
But of course this is all speculation and gets nowhere.
What is not speculation is that glass cutting skills will die out in Scotland, no-one in Scotland will choose the glass industry and almost 400 years after glass was first made - the bother*ed English have near killed it off. Hopefully Scotland will get independence before too long! The red cross has to go (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/category/d30511518508286f7124c940d5b850be.gif)
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Well done Frank for bringing this sad story to the attention of the Forum! As a fellow glassmaker AND a property landlord, I can see this from both sides. Part of the fault must be the atrocious summer which reduced visitor numbers to the Caithness Tourist Centre at Perth,which I know well from about six vists there!
A landlord is not going to be happy if a company reduces its size to occupy a visitor centre and factory unit planned for about 120, to one furnace and six people!
Sadly Dartington is under enormous commerical pressures and again poor weather does not help tourism in North Devon. The odd poor day in a hot summer used to bring in 4,000 visitors a day, Eric Dancer told me.
I have great sympathy for John Morris and his team who inherited/ bought a rather poisoned chalice, and has been hit by such an appalling summer. Eric again confided in me he could seel little future for Dartington and was glad he was retiring as costs were going through the roof and competition form the Far east was improving vastly with incredibly low labour costs.
Other Tourist based activities are also in dire straights, and selling off land for housing in Torrington was a vital cash transfusion. Quite whether the purchase of the Caithness and Royal Brierley brand names was the best way to invest this income, is difficult to judge short term.I have also thought that making paperweights was a studio/cottage industry hardly suited for lareg scale production, and at first Caithness proved me wrong, especially in the US market.
There is still money to be made from hand manufacture of glass in the UK, Nazeing Glass has had its best year since 1979, but we slashed our workforce and costs drastically to make us competitive. Now with three 3/4tonne furnaces and two 100kg studio furnaces, we are sadly probably the largest glassmanufacturing hand glass works!
And it is going to get even tougher once the currenyt recession that has just started gets under way. My advice, batten down the hatches and prepare for a rough two years at least, as the $100 a barrel oil price, the sub prime crash and the housing market slow down and all come together. Sell you stocks and shares and get into fixed ratee before the FTSE crash comes, is my advice!
Anyone want to buy a profitable glass factory for an outrageous sum? :'(
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Exactly the point i was trying to make!
However as a major Dartington customer I would like to point out that the land for housing next to the factory was sold when the company was trying to refiniance in 2003/04, when the company was sold to Enesco in July 04 all debts at that point were written off so the money from selling the land went towards this. Royal Brierley was aquired about a year into the Enesco era (with Enesco's own money), then Caithness after the management buy-out in 2006. The money for the Caithness takeover would have come from the Directors own back pockets and no-where else! So please think about that as well....it must be gut-wrenching for the Board to see their investment go to this (Many directors are there from the Royal Worcester era) as well of course for the staff. From what I hear through the grape-vine (I know a few people who work for Dartington) the company itself is going very well at present and the factory are very busy as well but Caithness had become a bit of an weight around its neck, much like Royal Brierley had which is why the factory at Dudley was closed in July this year.
Another reason with regards to tourism is the major decline in the number of coaches, this market is essential to many similar businesses and will have effected Caithness alot (more than Dartington which relies on Familys etc more)
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From what I hear through the grape-vine (I know a few people who work for Dartington) the company itself is going very well at present and the factory are very busy...
We'll see if Dartington survive the next 12 months catering to the lower-end gift market.
The lampwork weights sold extremely well, as we all know, and far better than the previous few years.
It's just a shame the directors don't understand the paperweight market, nor the collectors. Otherwise they'd have targetted the paperweight dealers in America, who want high end weights, and also the European paperweight dealers... oh well, it's their loss!
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I was talking about the Dartington factory and not the Caithness factory, and I wouldnt say Dartington is low-end, the high end Crystal is some of the best there is. They do have cheaper glassware as well of course, but Dartington is very much high-end tableware. I do fear for the future of the Caithness brand with you however, I can see them concentrating on making Unlimited collections (for everyday budgets) and more 'modern' lines like the latest Sarah Peterson ranges - (im not sure how the die-hard Caithness devotes have found them but I think they are fresh, interesting and modern). Caithness is a modern contempoary brand like Dartington is so this makes sense. I can see Dartington trying to merge Caithness's products to fit its own - i.e more art glass with lots of vibrant colours. Hopefully Caithness can find itself a new 'niche' in the market and grow for the future.
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It is good to get your input in this discussion Stephen. Yes I do see the problems Dartington face too, although with managing Scotland's Glass I find it unfortunate that I live to see an end to the story of Scottish Glass tradition.
In cataloguing the work of Caithness, much of my effort is on the gift trade part which is the greatest in numbers of models produced. The techniques used are the simplest and while they do have a following it is much less so than the higher end. Surely in commercial terms it is better to transfer such work overseas to remain competitive in the low end gift trade. Burn's Crystal have managed survival and import all of their blanks. Outsourcing ocerseas is always an emotional issue but if it can maintain a business viability - then some people keep their jobs.
The UK has always excelled commercially but never had the success of the US, which I believe is very much about the difference in attitude of the workers. The UK has always managed to maintain its position through the talents of individual - both working on their own and working for companies. Paperweights were brought back onto the modern map partly through Scottish enterprise and one man's passion, it was he that gave the push to Caithness to start producing paperweights. The original purpose of Caithness Glass being to bring employment to rural Scotland. It was the success of Domhnall Ó Broin and Charles Orr designs that made Caithness a success. Colin Terris built on that foundation to complete its success and introduce weight making. There is much in that design portfolio that could still be exploited to great effect. But the most recently active weightmakers, lampworkers, cutters and designers have created paperweights that are in a world class yet never marketed as the art they were.
Paul Stankard's work fetches remarkable sums straight from his studio today and Caithness certainly had people capable of working in his class. It is realistic to develop in that end of the market but in the UK the artist entrepreneur is fairly rare in comparison to the US, but the UK could create teams of marketeers and designers that could enter this lucrative market. Caithness still has the infrastructure to achieve this, it must be worth exploring. It is the larger dealerships in paperweights that should be involved in these discussion, not just the US.
But there is a fundamental issue that really matters here, without an outlet for skilled glassworkers within the UK those craft skills will die out and the UK will suffer in the long term as designers will not have access to the knowledge needed for effective glass design. Shareholders and investors are primarily concerned with short term gain, long term stability being desirable but a first victim at times of stress. I am sure, Stephen, that without your family efforts Nazeing would have been absorbed and spat out long ago - it is only a family that will invest in the long term today and that is sad. Perhaps a different approach to investing or company finance is the way to overcome these external fluctuations, a bit outside my sphere. Certainly it will be sad to see the end of factory hand-glass production and I for one hope it does not come to pass.
General note for visitors: Glass production is an expensive business, glass requiring a lot of energy to keep at the working temperature and the selling price has to cover energy that and the workers salaries. You cannot turn the pot off if orders do not meet your capacity, likewise you need a capacity that will meet sales orders in a reasonable time frame. With today's energy costs and wage levels this is a complex balancing act and the responsibility of management. Get it right and profits are feasible, screw it and you lose money. Britain also has a history of low expenditure, per capita, on glass production and profit levels of glass production are not very high. But the value of the exports has usually been important as well as the respect that UK glass has had for quality.
I quote here from a 1947 report on hand made glass in the UK that is probably reasonably comparable to today apart from the percentage of costs to wages and energy. Courtesy the Glass-study
The hand-blown section of the glass industry in Britain is very small when measured financially. If the money value of turnover or of capital employed is used as the yardstick, the eight companies (of which two are “public” and six are “private”) are together no larger than any one of many companies in other industries. All the businesses are old established, and it is certain that in no firm does the balance sheet set a value on the chief asset, i.e., the world-wide high reputation of English Hand-Blown Crystal Glass, or what in financial parlance is known as “goodwill.”
It is, however, of the utmost importance that this hard won asset should be preserved and, indeed, fostered and developed for the benefit of the country as well as for all engaged in the industry.
It is probably true to say that in no other industry is the family business more predominant, for even the two public companies have this characteristic to a certain degree.
The family element is less obvious today but probaby more important as far as survival is concerned.
Employer and employee vividly remember what has already happened when the market was flooded with glassware of good quality produced in Central Europe under conditions which would not be tolerated here. The industry must, therefore, first be assured that it will be protected from this form of competition.
There are many such comparisons made today! And no chance or protection through tariffs.
In 1936, about half the hand-blown section of the industry made a profit of not over 4 per cent. on sales turnover.
In 1937, 16 firms representing about 80 per cent. by volume of this section showed an average net profit on sales of 4.57 per cent. Nine of the firms made an average profit of 8.62 per cent., and the other seven an average loss of 3.02 per cent.
In 1938, 16 firms representing about 80 per cent. by volume of the industry showed an average loss of 3.59 per cent., six showing a profit of 4.53 per cent. and ten a loss of 13.44 per cent.
In 1939, 21 firms representing about 90 per cent. by volume of the industry made an average profit of 1.74 per cent., nine showing a profit of 8.84 per cent. and twelve a loss of 9.65 per cent.
In 1940, 22 firms representing about 90 per cent. by volume of the industry showed an average profit of 5.05 per cent., twelve showing a profit of 10.04 per cent. and ten a loss of 7.96 per cent.
The fortunes varied a lot with swings between profit and profitability - with today's high costs such swings can be more destructive.
One thing that would make a difference is that if everyone reading this detrmine each year to buy at least 6 items of hand-made glassware produced in their own country in addition to their usual buys AND encouraged other collectors to do the same - these problems in the glass industry are not unique to the UK.
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I think it is important to keep a balanced view about this.
I hadn't seen these pieces so I was intrigued by the comments above and I had a look. I can see that they are unlikely to appeal to conventional paperweight collectors. But this link shows http://www.caithnessglass.co.uk/store/comersus_index.asp that they are listed not under paperweights but under "art glass".
I was quite impressed with the sandcast collection by Sarah Peterson, which seems to have a freshness that has long been absent from British factory glass. Large traditional companies need to embrace new ideas and new markets in order to survive and need to adapt to changing market conditions and I don't think it is appropriate to criticise Caithness, at this point in their fortunes, for trying to do that.
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I can see both (all?) points of view on this. But I think the point Simone is making, and with which I can agree, is that Poland and China are just two areas producing Art Glass very similar to what Sarah Peterson is doing, but they charge £5 for it, not £50. Sadly, the 'giftware' buying public don't care if the quality of the glass is inferior, the price difference is just too great! Caithness - and Dartington - must realise this!
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Sarah Peterson's work since 2002 is shown here on Scotland's Glass (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=33&keyword=&manufacturer_id=0&Itemid=51&orderby=product_sku&limit=30&limitstart=0)
Not comprehensive as I lack the 2003 catalogue and am not sure when she started, I like her stuff too.
There must have been some market success or she would not have ridden through those 5 years to her present success.
Does anyone know if the animal range were marked, I have been asked but not having any don't know?
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People like John Deacons (and son Craig), Willy Manson (and son William) and Peter McDougall (and son Allan) are all continuing to make and sell high quality weights! I don't think they are "on their last legs"! Let's hope that Allan Scott, Shona, Helen, and maybe even Harry can get together in future and do the same. Any philanthropic millionaires around who want to make an investment? ;)
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Leni, if I had a million to spare, I'd not think twice about setting them all up in their own production. Or, if I can find 10 people with £100,00 to put into a worthwhile project.
I think that Allan's lampwork is the closest to the high end American weights. I've not seen Willie Manson turn out any of that quality. And John, Willie and Peter do turn out good quality weights, but are no spring chickens. They've not got any apprentices, so the art will eventually be lost.
Caithness at least provided the opportunity for apprenticeship, such as Linda Campbell, who was made redundant in the last round, and is now studying accountancy, but is a real loss to the paperweight world.
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Leni, if I had a million to spare, I'd not think twice about setting them all up in their own production.
Me neither, Simone!
Linda Campbell, who was made redundant in the last round, and is now studying accountancy
Now that is one of the most tragic things about this whole thing! :o That, and Harry McKay doing gardening! >:(
But don't dismiss William Manson Jnr, who has come back to paperweight making doing very good lampwork, and John & Craig Deacons are making some wonderful millefiori weights together, as well as some excellent lampwork. Even though I agree Allan Scott is tops for lampwork in the UK, and as good as any of the top Americans, I don't see the others I mentioned as being quite 'past it' yet! ;)
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And of course I forgot to mention Peter Holmes, who is now working with and passing on his skills to his son Andrew!
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Linda Campbell, who was made redundant in the last round, and is now studying accountancy
Now that is one of the most tragic things about this whole thing! :o That, and Harry McKay doing gardening! >:(
I was gutted when I heard of all that talent going to waste... :cry:
And it really was a portent for the future...
But don't dismiss William Manson Jnr, who has come back to paperweight making doing very good lampwork, and John & Craig Deacons are making some wonderful millefiori weights together, as well as some excellent lampwork. Even though I agree Allan Scott is tops for lampwork in the UK, and as good as any of the top Americans, I don't see the others I mentioned as being quite 'past it' yet! ;)
I hope they make it through the next couple of years, because economically, we're going to have really hard times... and when they come through the tough times, they'll be stronger and will still produce some excellent work.
We'll just wait and see now what the future holds... (now where's that crystal ball?)
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Further to this topic about paperweights, |i have just suggested to Mike and Sue Hunter of Twists Glass Studio that he apply for a grant to The British Glass Education Trust, ( which I chair since 1982), to help him produce and market a new range of paperweights for the US market. I cannot, for reasons of confidentiality), say what type of weight I believe would sell well in the US and other overseas markets, with a Scottish connection, that suits Mike's style.I treasure a weight I bought recently made by him that gave me the idea.
His skills also include some very good air twist stem reproduction goblets! Originality of design and technique help make paperweights collectable, and there are still some very fine artists left!
I am delighted to hear Dartington Glass is doing well. We sell some of their products and some Royal Brierley in our factory shop, with pride! Even better news is that some of Frank Thrower's designs are being reintroduced to mark the forty years of Dartington Glass! there are millons of young born since the production of many of these designs ceased, and would appreciate the unique design talent that Frank had in spades! remember he re -introduced variants of Georgian glass ( "Victoria..a bit on the side---board!", Rummer Suite & Ship's decanter, "any port in a storm?") with a modern twist.....
Stephen
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Gosh! Someone else I forgot! Mike Hunter is another star of paperweight and other glass-making! You see? There's plenty of talent and examples of skills continuing and being passed on!
Thank you, Stephen :hiclp:
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And Lindean Mill, Tweedsmuir, Duncan Smith. In cutting Denis Mann, Burn's Crystal - but no-one to train cutters to any extent. A lot of other studios too.
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Even better news is that some of Frank Thrower's designs are being reintroduced to mark the forty years of Dartington Glass! there are millons of young born since the production of many of these designs ceased, and would appreciate the unique design talent that Frank had in spades! remember he re -introduced variants of Georgian glass ( "Victoria..a bit on the side---board!", Rummer Suite & Ship's decanter, "any port in a storm?") with a modern twist.....
Stephen
Hi Stephen, do you know/are you able to tell us which of Frank Thrower's designs are being reintroduced for the 40th Anniversary?
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I can help there Pip, the range has been out since February and were only brought back for this year only until late Dec, but there is:
ST2349/P/40th Port Glass Pair (I think these are based on an earlier F T design but i cannot remember which one) in 24% Lead Crystal
DE2349/40th Ships Decanter (Which was one of Franks first Decanters) in 24% lead crystal
ST115/9/p/40th Sharon Celebration Flute (A taller and larger version of the Sharon champagne flute, designed in 1971) in 24% lead crystal
All the items come with a certificate of authenticity and are marked on the bottom with a D with 1967-2007 on it.
The range can be viewed here: http://www.dartington-test.co.uk/acatalog/40th-Anniversary-Celebration.html
In 2005 Rummer and Imbiber were also re-introduced into the Glassware lines, see http://www.dartington-test.co.uk/acatalog/Drinkware.html but they are slightly different to the originals. Mia, Wibble and Grip are also very much Frank Thrower themed as well although they were introduced this year. I was fortunate to go to a few exhibitions of Franks work this year and they have been excellent.
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Cheers for the info - that's great! I wasn't able to get to any of the exhibitions sadly but I bought the Eve Thrower book which is really interesting.