Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glassobsessed on January 20, 2015, 10:17:33 AM
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This plate does not strike me as typically 19thC Murano, several small features seem at odds. I have been wondering if it could be Sowerby Venetian but images of so few examples are available for easy comparison. Cottle states in his book on Sowerby that both aventurine and trailing were used by Sowerby in their Venetian range.
Approximately 18cm (7") in diameter, fire polished pontil mark, 20 optic ribs (that do not show up all that well in these photos).
Those three features do not seem typically Murano (or Salviati) to me and neither does the blueish tint to the opalescence, any thoughts?
John
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any chance of pictures on a white background please?
Just to see the 'colour' of the opalescent glass , thanks :)
Also might help with seeing the 'colour' and finish of the enamel glass rim around the edge - does it look old tin oxide ish?
edited - oops just realised you said the rim is aventurine glass trailed, not enamel.
m
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The problem with a white background is most detail is lost...
The trailed rim is aventurine.
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Looks like Salviati circa 1900 to me. Who else could make an aventurine rim like that?
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Well, apparently Sowerby (they employed workers from Murano).
That was my first thought too Ivo but I can not recall seeing a bit of Salviati with a fire polished pontil mark.
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A little bit of a side swerve here but on this link to Angela's glass museum page on Sowerby, can someone confirm that the jug 5th photo down on the left hand side is not actually Stevens and Williams Caerleon? or is it firmly identified as Sowerby as it says in the article. If so is there a source for this id please? And the bowl on the right facing it with the lions head prunts? is there a firm id that is Sowerby as well?
Just curious
Many thanks
m
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I wondered about that being Caerleon too m.
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Those two Sowerby attributions seem to require a bit of a leap of faith. What does Cottle say about lion masks?
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Sowerby press moulded opalescent glass swan here showing they did opalescent pressed glass (just adding for future reference) - dated to 1879
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6910/swan-vase-sowerby-ellison-glassworks/
and a selection of opalescent glass here:
no source for the identification given in the article -
captioned:
'Selection of Venetian-style glass produced by Sowerby's Ellison Works, late 19th century. Shipley Art Gallery, Gateshead'
Article and photo from Tyne and Wear Archives and Museums blog.
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/engage/blog/culture-in-an-industrial-region/
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/engage/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sowerby-Glass_05_Black-4.jpg
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The lion head prunts are from Venice and Murano Salviati I thought we discussed that and reached a conclusion years ago. And if you're looking for opalescent with a fine aventurine rim, check Sheldon Barr page 91. It is attributed to Artisti Barovier or Fratelli Toso.
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Lovely example Ivo. There are also a number of pieces in the book of various decors that have an aventurine rim - pages 76 and 77 and 78 good examples, all from Venice and Murano Glass Company Limited(Salviati &C)/Salviati Dott. Antonio.
Christine yes agree a big leap of faith. I'm wondering how they were id.
I forgot to put the link -
http://www.theglassmuseum.com/sowerby.htm
and here's a picture of the same colour Caerleon Glass decor from Stevens and Williams - vase in Broadfield House museum
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST468/
I think there might be an error with that Sowerby identification on the article.
Possibly also an error with the bowl with the prunts as well?
Does anyone have catalogue VIII from Sowerby dated 1880? Are these pieces in that catalogue (including the trailed jug)
for firm identification?
John sorry to divert the thread.
Ivo, lion's head prunts have been used on Caerleon glass from Stevens and Williams I thought (will go and check in a mo).
Are there specific style of Lion's head prunts that are identified specifically as from Venice and Murano Salviati?
John thanks for the pictures. The aventurine rim shows up brilliantly :)
I see what you mean about the mold blown ribs across the whole piece. I was just looking up the Cardinal's hat bowls that have the ribs but they are in the centre area only as far as I can see?
m
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Both with an aventurine rim, these would both be V&M Salviati.
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Ivo
I've found the past thread that id's these bowls as Salviati.
(for reference see thread on links below)
I may have extrapolated incorrectly from what Paul was saying in his comments on that thread here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326331.html#msg326331
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326357.html#msg326357
but from what Paul said, it seemed to read to me that a bowl with those prunts was found in Cottle's glass book (don't know which one but will try and find it and add) and attributed to Sowerby.
quoting some of Paul's comments to show what I interpreted from:
'Ivo's comments are confirmed to some degree by one of the images in Simon Cottle's chapter on 'Art and Venetian Studio Glass' - page 75. The illustration - page 74 - shows a similarly shaped bowl with swirl decoration and two opposing applied large prunts, which look to be similar to those on the op's bowl, but Cottle's picture is small it's not possible to be certain that the prunts are identical, but the similarity looks to be close.'
and then
'am sure that Ivo and John know more about these wares than me - I got carried away with finding a picture of what seemed a very similar bowl, although it looks to be possible that this piece is attributed to Sowerby.'
So is it possible that because the jug that looks like it's a Stevens and Williams Caerleon jug has lion head prunts on, it was misidentified in that article as being made by Sowerby because a bowl with lion's head prunts is in the Cottle Sowerby book misidentified ? (possibly) as Sowerby in the book, when in fact it's Venetian Salviati?
I bet the lion's head prunts on the 'probably' Stevens and Williams Caerleon jug are not the same as the ones on that bowl.
There is Caerleon glass vase with lion head prunts shown in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Centur British Glass page 110. Difficult to tell if the jug prunt is the same - however, in light of the fact that the decor is the same colour and the same decor as the vase in Broadfield House museum identified as Caerleon glass and we know that range used lion head prunts, I propose there is an error in that article and the jug is Stevens and Williams Caerleon.
As I've commented above, it appears to also have already been identified on another thread that bowls with those lion head prunts (like the one in the article) are from Salviati on this thread
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326339.html#msg326339
So from the pictures of the 'Sowerby Venetian glass' in that article, that leaves the trailed turquoise jug. For which it would be excellent to have a pattern number and firm identification.
It also leaves the opalescent glass collection from Tyne and Wear museums, which also doesn't have a source for it's identification.
m
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The article in the Glass Museum identifies those items as Sowerby on the basis that they were in Sheilagh Murray's collection and she wrote the Peacock and the Lions in 1982. Cottle wrote his book in 1986.
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Thanks :)
So the questions are:
1) were they identified by her as both by Sowerby in her book? If so what was her source?
or 2) was it an assumption they were Sowerby pieces because they were in her collection and she had written a book on Sowerby? In which case there is no source.
(remembering the 'Richardson' pieces that turned out not to be by Richardson at all)
And where does that leave the trailed jug.
I think there might be a Sowerby Venetian trailed piece identified as such in the V&A - I'm sure I saw a jug in there actually. Presumably (can be a dangerous assumption sometimes) they have firm identification for it.
Which just leaves the opalescent pieces in the Tyne and Wear museum collection - source or provenance?
m
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Haven't got Murray, so don't know.
I think the trailed jug is good for Sowerby
and who knows about the museum stuff
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The group in the museum photo are also photographed in Cottle, they belonged to Margaret Warner (Sowerby family), family lore has it that they were made at Sowerby in the early 1870s by Italian glass workers employed there (Cottle page 75). These wares do not seem to have been advertised anywhere but apparently Nottingham Castle Museum has many more.
Here they are again: http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/engage/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sowerby-Glass_05_Black-4.jpg
Assuming they were made by Sowerby then they are distinct from the Sowerby Venetian wares.
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Although according to this it appears identified Sowerby blown pieces could all come under the heading
Sowerby Art Glass Studio glass
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/laing/northernspirit/sowerby-glassworks-gateshead/
with the Venetian range being the range in clear or bottle green (cf above) with the turquoise trailing on it but still originating from the Sowerby Art Glass studio?
m
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Indeed and Sowerby Art Glass might have sounded a little like Salviati Glass to some, coincidence...?
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apologies if some of the following has repeated what has been said already or crossed with more recent posts - twice I've tried to post but keep getting thrown out by being pipped to the post - it's getting late and hope that amending isn't essential. :)
regret that my potential to help here has long since expired, and my input (quoted in part by above by m) was limited and lacked any conclusion................but I was still curious as to the origins and provenance etc. of the olive, lion-prunted bowl, in Cottle - page 74 - bottom left of the smaller picture. So I sent an email to Tyne & Wear Museums to enquire as to its whereabouts and to ask for a bigger picture.
The lady's name now escapes me, and in the absence of a reply I deleted the email, unfortunately :-[ - at the time she seemed keen to be helpful and promised to get back to me - but that was many months ago now, and can only assume that she failed to locate the piece. Could always try again.
There are difficulties with attribution for this type of late C19 Venetian Renaissance revival style - Simon Cottle himself said.... "now believed to have been made by this studio" - so he seems to be acknowledging some doubts as to accuracy of information..............and the similarity to much material produced by Salviati, makes for uncertainly of origin. Of course, it may well be that since the author's book is entitled 'Sowerby - Gateshead Glass', then we are perhaps meant to assume that all pieces shown in this author's book are from that factory, without exception.
Cottle's 'group of opalescent free-blown glass in Venetian style, c. 1878' - the larger picture on page 74, is very much what you imagine to be pure Salviati, and might well be pieces made by the ex Murano employees employed by Sowerby around that time. None of these pieces appears to show any rim colouring - this fact may indicate a Sowerby origin - but only guessing.
The smaller picture on page 74 (which includes the bowl with lion prunts) are pieces with pincered, trailed streaked colours, tinted and aventurine decoration, plus crimp formed rims, and appear to me to be a mixture of 'early Egyptian, Roman and Venetian glass styles'
Simon Cottle lumps all of these 'early Egyptian, Roman and Venetian revival styles' into what he calls the first of two distinct phases in the life of the Ellison Works studio - c. 1870 - 1878.............. the second phase he describes, generally, as aesthetic glass - the Clutha and Dresser forms
It may be that it's the slightly later Clutha and Dresser designs only that may correctly be called art glass, with the earlier Venetian etc. material being described as 'revival' pieces.
In addition to the original free-blown Venetian revival series, Sowerby then produced their mould-blown 'Venetian series items' c. 1878 - recognizable by their olive and clear bodies and turquoise coloured rims - and if I have it right, these are called 'new style aesthetic'.
The last of Sowerby's studio production with a claim to inspiration from Venice, looks to be the white and blue opaque bodied wares c. 1880 - described as Venetian and Near Eastern forms - in appearance more like pottery than glass.
None of which helps John remotely.......... other than to repeat that, since none of what we assume are Sowerby opalescent free-blown pieces (Cottle page 74) show aventurine or coloured rims, then Ivo's Salviati suggestion of origin would look to be more likely.............. but who knows ;) ;D
all credit for the above information etc. must go solely to....... .Simon Cottle's book - 'Sowerby - Gateshead Glass' - TYNE and WEAR MUSEUMS SERVICE - 1986.
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Thanks Paul, you pipped me this time. ;D
None of the four in the photo have an aventurine rim like mine. Again, according to Cottle at the time Sowerby used aventurine as well as the technique of trailing. Can't see if any of the four have a fire polished pontil mark or not.
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Thanks Paul for so much information.
John yes, I say Sowerby Art glass you say Salviati glass, let's call the whole ... :)
In fact that could be , I say Salviati glass, you hear Sowerby Art glass. mmm indeed.
I'm very curious to know more about the pattern numbers etc on those opalescent blown glass items. I'm not sure this would be considered a source of identification would it?
'family lore has it that they were made at Sowerby in the early 1870s by Italian glass workers employed there (Cottle page 75). These wares do not seem to have been advertised anywhere but apparently Nottingham Castle Museum has many more.'
m
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http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/search/?q=Sowerby
Sowerby Venetian jug here just for reference on colours and style
m
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I forgot to mention, for what it is worth the pontil mark is larger than typically found on Salviati's wares, which usually show that quite a small diameter rod was used on the smaller and lighter items.
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John there was also a maker in Scotland making Venetian style glass around end 19th iirc.
I cannot remember their name but know someone mentioned them in relation to a vase Ivo had (white filigrana) - I'll try and find the thread.
I'm adding a good picture of a Salviati opalescent stand with an aventurine rim so readers of the thread can see the type of glass being discussed in the Barr Venetian Glass book as a comparison, and also to compare to John's plate.
http://www.rossellajunck.it/pagina3centrotavolasalviati.html
m
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John what diameter is the pontil mark please?
Alexander Jenkinson was the maker I was thinking of.
m
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this is a ribbed Salviati plate with a trailed rim (hope the link works)
The diameter of the pontil mark on my dolphin ewer is 13mm ish
http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/ShowDialog.aspx?TITLE=VIEWERTITLE&TBL=OA&ID=304368&Ext=jpg&Folder=&MODE=VIEW&OPAC=DEFAULT&WEB=MuseiVe
If it doesn't, I typed girasol into the search part and it's the last item to come up on page 8 using that method.
m
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All I have is an image of drawings of lampshades reproduced in the book "SCotland's glass", from the Holyrood Glassworks Venetian designs, copyrighted from the City of Edinburgh Museums and Galleries, in relation to Jenkinson.
The handwriting beside the images is not easy to read, even with my best glasses and a magnifier.
The designs themselves may well be consistent with the design of these plates - there is coloured trailing on rims and throughout the pieces, I can find no mention of aventurine though.
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John do you have Raymond Slack ?
reference in there to Sowerby producing handblown glass -
and also reference to them developing opalescent glass for their pressed blanc-de-lait -
but... as far as I can make out I can't see that there is anywhere in there that specifically says they produced handblown opalescent glass. There is nothing specific but I think there is information that could be misconstrued/misinterpreted. I've not time to type it up at the moment but will add the two excerpts later.
This is a jug from Jenkinson just for reference - not opalescent though
http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-100-103-225-C
m
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I've found this but there is nothing there I'm afraid, that would link to your plate - sorry.
It shows all the pieces they have from Alexander Jenkinson
http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/results.php?field=who&searchterm=%22Alexander+D.+Jenkinson%27s+Norton+Park+Glass+Works%22&searchdb=scran
m
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Apologies for my late reply m and thanks for digging out those links.
Looks like Salviati circa 1900 to me. Who else could make an aventurine rim like that?
Ivo you were spot on. ;D Bought this plate on ebay and it matches the size and profile of the opalescent plates exactly, even has a heat finished pontil mark and those soft colours are in keeping. I am converted.
Sowerby would have been nice, not this time but maybe one day!