Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: antonizz on December 13, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
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Hi everybody,
I have bought a massive opaline glass vase, which I'm pretty sure it's made by Harrach.
Although it could always use a second opinion. Especially from you guys ;)
The vase is made of opaque/opaline glass.
It's very large, with a height of 47,5 cm (18,7 inch),
and a diameter of 24 cm (9,45 inch).
The coupe is detachable from the pedestal. All in very good condition.
The Etruscan images are transferprinted.
I have searched about it a lot. My options were:
-Richardson (U.K.)
-Russia
-Harrach (Bohemia)
Most Russian pieces I believe are hand painted.
Richardson's vases didn't really compare to mine.
The best example is from the Harrach website.
Link: http://www.sklarnaharrachov.cz/muzeum/vytvarne-styly
I also read a number of threads on this forum.
I hope you guys could tell me more about it.
Thank you very much in advance!
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More pictures...
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More pictures..
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I only see now that there shouldn't be any ID requests here.
Although I'm pretty sure of Harrach. Also found this just now:
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I think it is Harrach
just linking the pic you linked on the museum website - sso everyone can see it without searching for it:
http://www.sklarnaharrachov.cz/getFile/id:28449/lastUpdateDate:2017-02-10+16:01:00/image.jpg
Can I see some close ups of the transfer printed figures faces please? Some good clear close up :) :)
Thank you. Just like to compare to the figures on my various pieces in similar style.
Your man here
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70300.0;attach=239005;image
is the same as one in the From Neuwelt to the Whole World book pp187 top right hand pic although that one is all browns and reds costume, no blue.
The caption says
quote - 'Drawings of transfer print decoration - matching themes of romische Figuren were often applied to other forms from the period c.1865 (AH 288).'
m
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Hi,
I have just made some extra pictures for you. Then I read "from the faces". :p
I have made them of the animations themselves. But they're quite clear though.
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I don't know why they upload sideways. Guess you'll have to do it with this :P
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And these are the last two;
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Hi, talking about comparing faces, in British Glass by Hajdamach, plate 71 page 99 shows a picture of a registered Richardson transfer print design of three Etruscan Type figures. In that plate, the faces of the figures look very similar to the faces in the first and third images in your reply #5, especially if you look at the shape of the chin, nose, forehead, and eyes. Maybe all the manufacturers copied the same original source?
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Unfortunately I don't have that book to see for myself. As to a source of images I did saw a book about these kind of figures and animations a couple of weeks ago. Won't be able to find it back online.
But I assume they a copied a little bit of each other. As it says on the Harrach website, next to the pedestal coupe.. I believe it said that English glassmakers started this neo-classic style but engravements in clear glass and crystal. And then Harrach try to copy this style by making the glass look like ancient pottery combined which animations etc.
I think they all influenced one another.
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Haven't checked the book but Richardson did do some 'Etruscan' pieces however I'm sure this is a Harrach piece.
m
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From what I briefly remember is that both richardson and the russian versions had more of meander patterns (greek key pattern).
And the russian were a little less colorful. The bohemian and Richardson's used more colors I think.
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Russian version of Etruscan vase style - very colourful :)
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/wcm/connect/e9df0b10-050c-4e43-9b78-080207f471a2/WOA_IMAGE_1.jpg?MOD=AJPERES&76a092d8-c079-4508-8803-df8fc6b1d2b6
Richardson version of Etruscan vase style same period - not colourful :)
https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/styles/cmog_primary_image/public/collections/A9/A909F71D-A454-4C3B-94ED-B5C706CB0918.jpg?itok=PlaFm866
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Maybe I got it mixed up. Or I'm just talking nonsense here :p
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Not at all :)
I have been researching these pieces for a good few years now and in all honesty it is very difficult to determine them. I have not managed to id 3 out of the 4 of mine securely. But I think if you sent photographs of yours to the Harrach museum they would be able to confirm the id.
m
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Yes, that's a good idea. I'll try that next week. If I hear something I'll let you know.
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...
Your man here
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70300.0;attach=239005;image
is the same as one in the From Neuwelt to the Whole World book pp187 top right hand pic although that one is all browns and reds costume, no blue.
The caption says
quote - 'Drawings of transfer print decoration - matching themes of romische Figuren were often applied to other forms from the period c.1865 (AH 288).'
m
The picture in the book is a small painting/drawing of the transfers they were using. It looks like the one on this Harrach vase:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/etruscan-figures-opal-decorated-12-461380715
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It looks like the one on this Harrach vase:
Not that the vase in the link isn’t Harrach but the seller describes it as “Possibly British Glass by Richardson, circa 1850's /1860's. Or maybe Bohemian glass”
Is the sellers vase definitely Harrach?
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yes I'm sure it is.
Antonizz, the figure on your vase pedestal here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70300.0;attach=238991;image
appears on a vase in the Harrach Book From Neuwelt to the Whole World page 187, Plate 222 . It is an identical figure.
The vase is dated 1864.
Quote
'form: prod.no. 195/14 1/2' (btw, that 1/2 reads as a half fraction so it may be referring to the size of that vase)
'Museum of Glass Harrachov inv. no 3737'
Question: is the rim on your vase cut and polished?
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Thank you for your response. Do you perhaps have a picture of the vase you talk about in the book? Or aren't you allowed to publish that here?
About the rim:
What do you mean with it being "cut"? As in hand/wheel cut instead of molded?
I'm not home right now but Im sure its polished. It doesn''t really have rough edges or anything.
I'm sorry it might seems that I know quite a lot about glass itself, but I really don't.
The picture of the link you placed, which is attributed to Richardson..
I'm pretty sure you're right about it being a Harrach piece.
I came across a vase earlier this week. And I kind of ran out of budget, otherwise I perhaps would have bought it myself. This is an example which I would not attribute to Harrach. Could be Richardson or Russian. But the quality isn't really impressing.
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Grand-vase-en-opaline-blanche-decor-a-lAntique-Circa-1890/193826744888
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Did you see it in person?
I saw one of those - maybe not the same piece but absolutely definitely the same maker, at a glass fair a few years ago in Birmingham. Massive vase. I thought it was a fabulous piece. However even then, I could not place it and as far as I know the maker has not been identified. Charles Hajdamach has a version of it in his book as unidentified. It has never turned up in any of the contemporary art journals pieces or the Great Exhibitions etc as far as I've ever seen and I've seen quite a lot of pictures from both sources.
There was another maker called Davidson Greathead and Green who made some Etruscan vase that have been discovered. I've never thought it was by them though. I think that one really will remain a mystery.
I cannot put a picture on from the Harrach book, but in that case your figure is absolutely identical.
About the rim - it can be rounded and firepolished i.e blown from the bottom and pontil snapped off at bottom, or it can be blown from the top rim, so the bottom of the piece will have no pontil mark and the top will be cut and then from Harrach would be polished and nicely finished but would be flat in part, not thick and rounded all over the edge of the rim.
btw
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54777.msg310421.html#msg310421
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/also
here are some good close photographs of a signed 'Richardson's vitrified' 'Etruscan' style vase - they are tranfer printed and the facial elements are different to those on Antonizz's vase:
https://www.trocadero.com/stores/antiqueartglass47/items/1282723/Richardson-English-glass-painted-Vetrified-glass-vase/enlargement1
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The picture in the book is a small painting/drawing of the transfers they were using. It looks like the one on this Harrach vase:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/etruscan-figures-opal-decorated-12-461380715
The musicians on the vase in flying free’s link (described as Richardson by seller but thought Harrach) match those shown on this site https://sites.google.com/site/loetzandglass/harrach--a-glass-mystery-solved in picture 7 that are said to come from a Harrach design book dated to the 1860's and 70's. I note that there are some subtle differences with the drawing of the same design in picture 9 but I assume that’s because one is a design drawing and one is a photo of the finished item?
Interestingly, the depiction of musicians looks the same as the vase of “uncertain origin” on the far right of colour plate 13 on page 136 of Hajdamach.
here are some good close photographs of a signed 'Richardson's vitrified' 'Etruscan' style vase - they are tranfer printed and the facial elements are different to those on Antonizz's vase
The facial elements of the signed 'Richardson's vitrified' 'Etruscan' style vase above are also different to the facial elements shown in Hajdamach with the Richardson mark and diamond registration. Maybe facial features aren’t a reliable indicator?
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The facial elements of the signed 'Richardson's vitrified' 'Etruscan' style vase above are also different to the facial elements shown in Hajdamach with the Richardson mark and diamond registration. Maybe facial features aren’t a reliable indicator?
No they aren't. But there are other things - I can't explain exactly what, but there are :) that can help to put the vase with Harrach or possibly Richardson's and also with Loetz or Davidson, Greathead and Green or Bacchus (which are usually signed) and also some French pieces which have their own odd look.
Other than that, there are other 'Etruscan' style pieces out there that are extremely hard to pin down. Like my three pieces :) Sometimes I think that's because they were in vogue 1845 ish to 1860 so information is scarce or, like my blue vase and milchglas plate, they are so rare that it's hard to even find any criteria to match them on. And I'm fairly certain those of mine fall in to the 1840s/1850s, so that makes it quite difficult from a resource point of view.
There are some other pieces I see where I wonder if they were produced in a revival period of 'Etruscan' fashion from c.1880s or later and then I think you're blowing in the wind for a maker. There are a few styles that I see fairly often and wonder where on earth they've originated country wise.
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I just came across these 2 vases. Those are Richardson's.
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/gildings-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srgil10257/lot-d31d9530-da22-4a68-b744-ac9a00ad3158
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examples of how difficult it can be to id these vases:
These are being sold as probably St Petersburg. They are definitely from the same stable as my giant vase. But I don't think they're from the same stable as Antonizz's vase despite there being some similarity in the types of figures used as depictions.
https://www.incollect.com/listings/decorative-arts/objects/a-pair-of-white-opaline-glass-polychrome-enamel-vases-in-the-etruscan-style-228493
However, whilst there are similarities with the piece in the Russian collection of the Hermitage, I couldn't find a match on the figures so for now mine is in my head as unidentified :)
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Yes it is. And that's a very nice pair!
I have sent an e-mail to the Harrach museum yesterday.
If I hear something I'll let you know.
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Your man here
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70300.0;attach=239005;image
is the same as one in the From Neuwelt to the Whole World book pp187 top right hand pic although that one is all browns and reds costume, no blue.
Out of interest, the man on Antonizz’s vase with the shield (as shown in flying free’s link above) also looks to be an almost direct copy of one of Flaxman’s characters from drawings from the Iliad, the legs are slightly different. Shown here:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Gods_descending_to_battle.jpg
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I have received a response from the Harrach museum saying:
,,Dear Mr. ****,
We believe that your pedestal coupe was made also in Harrachov. It is similar as our bowl from our museum.I send you picture from our book, there is year 1864."
And they added this picture:
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8) That is so lovely they've replied
m
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Yes, it is! I especially like the picture they send with it.
And it came to mind... that it being described as "beinglas".
Now I'd say it's made of opaline glas. And then I recalled that bone ashes were used in the opaline glass,
to give it the oplascent effect. (The orange glow/flare, when held against a light source).
Now would that make any sense?
By the way the LITERAL translation of the text in the image they send me, on google-translate is:
(Most of it is accurate, but little parts of it aren't)
Harrachov glass in antique style / Jan Mergl.
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Bowl with faithful antique medallions, item no. 26/2 (AH 269)
________
217
Bowl on the leg with a base.
Around 1864.
Shape: Item No. 26/2.
Execution: Beinglas with red and Roman figures.
H. 48.6 cm.
Museum of Glass, Harrachov, inv.c.4462.
_________
White opal Beinglas glass, blown into a mold. The pedestal and foot are covered with red enamel, red decals are colored in the advanced medallions - the head of the Immaculate Highlander and a woman's head with an antique beard. Pile of matte, with colored decals of wrestling ancient warriors.
__________
With another variant of the decor with large medallions, the bowl is drawn in AH 269.
In the company documentation there are several dozen different decals of Mythological figures, ancient Roman figures or medallions with human heads, see AH 288.
J. Brazova identified the companies Kosch, Viden, and C. Hesse, Leipzig, as Passau, as the supplier of the decal. 1995, Bd. III, C III. 27.
Pr .: FA - AH 269 (shape)
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Does yours glow when it's held up to strong sunlight? with an orange glow?
If not then I would not describe it as Beinglas. Milchglas is another descriptor but it doesn't look like that to me.
If no glow then I would describe it as alabasterglas. Which does not have the glow as they used something else to opacify the glass (tin rather than calcined bones and arsenic I think? - open to correction on this as it's been a while since I read up on it all)
And thank you for sharing that information. I have the book - I'm interested in the decal information so need to go and re-read it.
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Haha this is quite stupid though. I thought it had this opalescent effect.
And I double-checked: It doesn't glow. I was confusing it with an other piece I bought recently.
And I have recently bought this box. It's quite nice.
A napoleon III piece, made around 1855.
It's definitely called opaline glass. Has no opalescent effect.
There's just opaline glass that glows, and opaline glass that doesn't.
There's also a variation in colors, and milkyness/soapyness.
Thanks for all your help though!!!
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CAn you enlarge your photographs please so they load as 600 x 400 pixels. That way the pic can be opened to show the details.
Not able to enlarge your photos at all means any help or info you might get is limited :)
Thank you
m
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yes :) some that glows and some doesn't depending on what was used as an opacifier.
And yes, it's all opaline glass however over a period of time, researchers and collectors have used other words as descriptors. alabasterglas is used in terms of Bohemian glass to denote those opaline pieces which do not glow.
Milchglas is often used I find, to describe a type of intense white milky Bohemian glass often from the early 1800s and before.
Beinglas is used to denote those opaline glass items that have been opacified ( using calcined bones?) and it glows red under direct sun or light.
I also have a very early 1820s French blue opaline glass that glows bright red under direct light and a Bohemian piece from the same period that is blue and does the same :)
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I had already minimized the pictures.
Let's see if these are better.
And I'm interested in the opaline pieces you have.
Do you mind sharing a picture of it?