Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Belgium and the Netherlands Glass => Topic started by: SAS on August 02, 2007, 08:24:23 PM
-
Dear Readers,
I haven't posted for quite some time since I was busy putting my book together. Since its publication in January, I have resumed my eternal research and study.
There is a Maker Unknown glass hen dish that has "Belge" impressed in both the top and the base. I have seen it in a pinkish opaque color and in clear glass.
Does anyone know what this mark, "Belge," refers to, or what company made glass using this mark? I am sure it is a European company.
Thank you very much for any insight you might be able to provide.
Shirley in Charleston, WV
author, Glass Hen on Nest Covered Dishes, 2007
-
Doesn't "Belge" mean Belgium, Shirley?
BTW why not add your book details to the book stickie on the board?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2066.0.html
-
Dear Readers,
I assumed that "Belge" referred to Belgium, but I wanted to know what company used that mark. Also, if it was possible that Belgium was under the government of some other company at the time. Those of you who study European glass surely know what a tangle those companies had with borders shifting!!!
Shirley in Charleston, WV
-
Dear Readers,
I do not see how on earth to "post a stickie" - whatever that is - about the publication of my book. Please help an old lady out here.....
Thanks!
Shirley in Charleston, WV
-
Shirley as the stickie's been moved to Archive it needs to be added to by a Moderator. If you'd like to write a piece in a separate post below this one and I or one of the other mods will move it over for you. :)
-
That the Belgian borders have shifted is news to me - to the best of my knowledge they did not. "Belge" is clearly an abbreviation for "fabrication Belge" - or made in Belgium. The largest maker of pressed items in Belgium was VSL - and their produce is well documented. So if the item is not in their catalogues, plan B comes into force: attribution to one of the other factories. Most probable is Scailmont in Manage, or the glassworks at Familleureux. You may just have to be content by putting "unknown glassworks, Belgium".
-
Thank you, Ivo, for your information on Belgium glass manufacturers. It is very difficult to find information on European glass manufacturers despite all the work that Siegmar and Glen have done and shared with us. Add to that the fact that moulds were sold, stolen, transferred, loaned, or copied and you have a quagmire to work your way through. And, you are right: sometimes you have to accept that you cannot ascertain the answer....but I keep trying.....
Shirley in Charleston, WV
-
Shirley's book details added here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2066.msg97434.html#msg97434
-
Shirley and Ivo:
there is a real lot of glass signed BELGE which obviously is not! INWALD and WALTHER were the producers >:D
-
see here:
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/schalen/04406.html
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/schalen/00720.html
-
Dear Pamela,
Thank you very much for your information on the "Belge" mark and the links to your extremely useful and informative website.
Are you saying that various companies used the "Belge" mark for items exported to Belgium? I know that German companies exporting items to England used a mould mark (usually the British registration mark).
Sincerely,
Shirley in Charleston, WV USA
-
Pamela - I've been concerned about this before but I can't get to the bottom of it. Are you saying that Inwald marked their glass with BELGE? Is there solid evidence for this? Could it be that an Inwald pattern was copied by a Belgian maker?
-
Dear Glen,
this one: http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/schalen/06466.html is new to my collection. It matches http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/schalen/04406.html
although a little different in height and MARK - the pink one has got not only BELGE in the base but also FAIT EN BELGIQUE inside top
please compare to Inwald 1934 page 128 ;D
Regarding Walther Glas I have to upload the ATLAS finally, my fault - please excuse :-X
-
Glen and all, please
I am far from telling anyone here anything... I can only contribute out of my collection :angel:
-
Thanks to Patricia we now know that "Belge"was routinely used to mark products from the Boom factory; we may therefore assume that other makers in the Manuverbel pool such as Doyen Havré (pressed glass) used the mark as well.
I can not believe a german maker used "Belge" or "fait en Belgique". It makes no sense...
-
As I said above, I simply can't imagine Inwald or Walther using BELGE or anything similar, on their glass. No way.
So why is there a BELGE mark on items that appear identical to pieces made by Inwald and Walther? They were made in Belgium (by a Belgian maker....as Ivo notes above, probably Boom...thanks for that info Ivo and Patricia). They were copies - the patterns were plagiarised. Sometimes by agreement and contract, sometimes not. It happens all the time. Here are just a few examples.
Jacobean / Milord
Inwald (Czech) and Davidson (UK)
#2266 Chunky aka English Hob & Button
Sowerby (UK) and Indiana (USA)
Rose Garden aka Rosen aka Rosor
Brockwitz (Germany) and Eda Glasbruk (Sweden)
Sunk Daisy aka Red Sunflower aka Amerika
Cambridge (USA) and Eda Glasbruk (Sweden) and Riihimaki (Finland)
The above list is just a very small selection (off the top of my head).
Glen
-
hi..i researched the grammar of fait en and it carries the meaning of ___for the purpose of_____thats from french
-
Hi,
"Fait en..." is definitely, in common French parlance, "Made in..." and not "for the purpose of..."
Regards,
Marcus
-
As I said above, I simply can't imagine Inwald or Walther using BELGE or anything similar, on their glass. No way.
So why is there a BELGE mark on items that appear identical to pieces made by Inwald and Walther? They were made in Belgium (by a Belgian maker....as Ivo notes above, probably Boom...thanks for that info Ivo and Patricia). They were copies - the patterns were plagiarised. Sometimes by agreement and contract, sometimes not.
Not to mention the piece that Christine (Lustrousstone) saw marked Made in Belgium, but a dead ringer for a Bagley Elf Posy.
-
Cathy, you bought that one didn't you. How does it compare in the "flesh"?
-
Hi Christine,
I actually sent the vase to Angela, as I couldn't find my elf posy and felt she was better placed to make the comparison.
From her photographs, it's obvious that they are from different moulds. Very clearly so. The Bagley is 'wavier' - i.e. the wave peaks are higher, and there are more of them per line. There are 15 wave peaks on the Bagley, and only 9 on the Belgian vase. Also, there are only 15 waves on the Bagley, whereas there are at least 16 waves on the Belgian - they sort of peter out at the end so I wasn't sure whether there might be another faint wave there.
Also, the Bagley vase has three quite prominent mould marks, whereas the Belgian has none. But the Belgian piece was satinised. Would the acid treatment be enough to make the mould marks undetectable? My feeling was that the Belgian piece was very nicely made.
This answer probably needs to be appended to that original message, and also it might be worth opening a thread on Inwald and Walther designed pieces marked Made in Belgium.
Not just now though... For my last Uni unit, I wrote 20,000 words in 5 days and now I have to edit them before 31 Oct in the vague hope that they will become coherent, because at the moment they ain't! It's put me off writing for life, just about: now I'm thinking of taking up something staid and sensible as a hobby. Narcolepsy perhaps, which at least would be restful.
-
Sounds like one or the other was copycat design rather than the same mould then. ::)
Well done, that's a lot of words - hopefully they all make sense! :hiclp:
-
The question, as always, is who was copying whom. It's another question for Angela!
Re all those words - I think they make sense, but it has serious problems like loose ends, illogical happenings and flat characters. Two characters disappear into a cave never to be seen again, not by design and for tragic effect, but because I pretty much just forgot about them... And those are only the deficiencies I can find; who knows what my supervisor will think. His email bounced it a couple of times and I wondered whether it was because AAPT had a taste filter. :chky:
-
I have got some answers to our questions 'from the horses mouth' and will be updating my website shortly to include new info... however as a start:
According to Boom factory manager F van Ransbeeck:
"The only pressed glass that was made at Boom was ashtrays, insulators, cats-eyes, and lens glass for torches. (no vases, bowls etc!) and it was NOT marked!"
(Provisional conclusion: ONLY VSL was making pressed glass in Belgium after 1940?! or perhaps Ivo can specify any exceptions?!)
He also confirms that Boom employed workers who had previously worked in Bohemian factories, so it confirms that employees (and techniques) were moving back AND forth.
Given some of the comments above I feel compelled to draw your attention to some historical details. After the division of Germany (Yalta agreement etc) the Walther factory in Dresden became part of East Germany.
As such it shared a common problem with it's communist neighbours including Czechoslovakia. The Breton Woods agreement (which replaced Marshall Aid ) used trade/tariff mechanisms to encourage WEST European countries like Belgium, France, Holland and West Germany to export and rebuild with the profits.
The Soviet regieme was consequently cut off from all the western markets it had enjoyed pre-war.
It seems obvious that this is the period in which, as well as the reason why, two communist-run factories would start stamping 'Made in Belgium' onto their products.
As we all know, there were lots of Belgian factories which will have made it harder to check!
(If they had said 'Holland' then any question about labelling would've been answered in three phonecalls! By saying 'Belgium' they made it harder to trace!)
-
The puzzle has remained unsolved, but the search continues:
Boom did not make any pressed glass in this style. Nor did Scailmont (although they DID have the skills to make them)
The 'Fait en Belgique' mark is almost identical (font) to marks on Val St Lambert pressed glass.
Although there are a few Belgian factories whose production is still unknown (e.g. Famillereux) but they mostly stopped production before the period in which these items seem to be made. There are quite a few recorded examples (see above), but no evidence or memories to suggest they were produced in Belgium.
Does anybody know the original maker of this pattern, so that we can add it to the list that Glen started
>>>
Jacobean / Milord
Inwald (Czech) and Davidson (UK)
#2266 Chunky aka English Hob & Button
Sowerby (UK) and Indiana (USA)
Rose Garden aka Rosen aka Rosor
Brockwitz (Germany) and Eda Glasbruk (Sweden)
Sunk Daisy aka Red Sunflower aka Amerika
Cambridge (USA) and Eda Glasbruk (Sweden) and Riihimaki (Finland)
-
The only thing I know about the marks 'Belge' and 'Fait en Belgique' is that they were marks to avoid import taxes. Several models from Inwald, Walter and Brockwitz etc can be found, as you know, with these marks. By marking them at the place of manufacture, there were no taxes to be paid once they were imported and it was a clever way to avoid them....something to do with law and legislation. The marks mentioned are very often attributed to Scailmont but there were 35 factories just in Wallonia at the time, so it's difficult to pinpoint the importer.
The only way is through catalogues I guess, I haven't got anything mentioned in books and I have been looking for some time now to find an answer to that question.
-
However only a few of the 30 had the resources for pressed glass, and these pieces seem to date from a period when most of the smaller Belgian factories were already struggling or dead.
If they were really made in Belgium then they would look more like Luxval?! or something else that we would recognise by colour, press-quality, hand finising. seams, etc.
The quality and date (and a possible explanation for the fake mark) might be Preciosa? They -see wikipedia - (and others) would also have been prepared to copy the (VSL) mark 'Fait en Belgique' from an example and make a new base plate. They probably made a spelling error when casting the 'BELGE' base plates LOL! and being part of the state in the East they were not likely to worry about copyright law either!
Of course they/whoever will (also) have been trying to avoid duties and tariffs etc. by this little deception.
-
However only a few of the 30 had the resources for pressed glass, and these pieces seem to date from a period when most of the smaller Belgian factories were already struggling or dead.
If they were really made in Belgium then they would look more like Luxval?! or something else that we would recognise by colour, press-quality, hand finising. seams, etc.
This is exactly what I was trying to say … from what I understand, they were not made in Belgium, they didn't see Belgian soil until they were imported.
-
I'm reading and re-reading both on internet and doc sources, and I want to substantively quash the myth that seems to re-ignite the flame. Maybe I'm touchy because people think that there is an omission on my site, so now I'll put in a clearer explanation for context.
Seems all the experts are agreed! :)
"Items marked "BELGE" have NO proven link to the country of Belgium, and were NOT manufactured there!" (It is possible that the same factory also misused a 'FAIT EN BELGIQUE" press-mark (cf Val St Lambert)
-
Yes i think you're right there, the only link these pieces had was that they were sold in Belgium and that's as far as it goes.
Re 'Fait en Belgique' being used by VSL, I've only come across signatures 'VSL - Belgique' or 'VSL- Belgium' but always with VSL and without 'Fait en'.... Never just 'Fait en Belgique'.
-
Hi Anne and all,
I've started a draft page about 'BELGE' marks. Do you have any more photographs you can add? (perhaps variant VSL pressed marks?)
www.hogelandshoeve.nl/bedraft/
I've just got a copy of Massart's book, but I didn't find any new clues! :) I'll work on the page more before 'publishing' it.
-
Sorry Jay, I had not noticed your question.
I only have three, maybe four different pressed marks of VSL, either VSL or Val St Lambert in full, followed by Belgique or Belgium.
On my Pinterest page I have a board 'Signatures' with images from my own pieces and images found on the internet, please help yourself as it's easier like that. Doesn't cost anything to join Pinterest, you only need to register.
I had one bright blue Romeo bowl that was partly satin finished and the mold was extraordinary crisp, the signature came up very nice.
There's one piece, a carp on a custom made lamp base, that is catalogued in the Luxval series (not as lamp but just the carp), and this particular piece is acid marked, perhaps it was a production pre Luxval but besides that, I have no other examples, not that I know of either.
Other pieces that you might come across have a black painted and elegant cursive VSL signature, often to be found on vases with satin finish like Girofla and Coqueret, but these are pre Luxval as well.
I remember being told once, yonks ago, that everything signed Fait en Belgique is always Scailmont, but we know now, that this is simply not true, and I have just heard another thing about VSL, that the signatures were payable ??? 300fB the equivalent of €7,50 per piece, but that doesn't make sense to me ... Who got charged with those costs then? The client? I don't know where this wisdom comes from but for now it's just another rumour that adds to the confusion I guess.
-
I've found three examples of the black enamel VSL mark, and yes! They're all on satine ('frosted') vases around the beginning of Luxval.
It was a very good party at New Year, but produced very poor photos ;-) so I'll get some nice sharp images for the files, and happily share later if they are of interest.
Can I suggest that the extra price might be for (all) the satine versions (which should? all have the black mark) and that your correspondent has rather misinterpreted the reason for the higher prices.
I noticed in particular this variant mark below, which I hadn't seen before.
Couldn't (yet) find a Carp to compare for you. :(
-
Is that image yours Jay? Like you, I have never seen that one either. Can I use it please?
I wonder if these black signatures are not pre Luxval by a couple of years. Besides just a couple of pressed glass models for vases, pre Luxval there was not a lot. Everything was cut glass before that when it came to vases.
It could be possible that they were just trying to find a solution to the problem of the depression at the time, creating a few models and decided to create a whole series shortly after that.
Here's the link for the acid mark on the carp.
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/21464479-charles-graffart-val-saint-lambert-crystal-carp-table-lamp (https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/21464479-charles-graffart-val-saint-lambert-crystal-carp-table-lamp)
Re the prices on signature, I would not know, I've never read anything about this, I only came across that statement in a different forum but no source if where that info came from, totally new to me too.
-
Dear Anne,
I did another update to the Belgian pages which you can review at www.hogelandshoeve.nl/be/
I'd be happy to credit the use of the photos on the Marks and labels page, Just let me know how you'd like the credit text.
There's still a few things to fix on the pages, but I would like to put them online next week?!
-
Thank you for the alert, Jay :-*
I took quick photos of items from my collection today which are marked either BELGE, FAIT EN BELGIQUE, BELGIUM, MADE IN BELGIUM or PAVILLONS BELGIUM... please see also single images below
That unknown basket was made by Sindorf, pattern RECORD
-
pink unmarked Brockwitz, topaz FAIT EN BELGIQUE
topaz 'Brockwitz Prismen-alike'
-
1. BELGE, similar to Sindorf ERNA
2. FAIT EN BELGIQUE, unknown
3. FAIT EN BELGIQUE, unknown
4. BELGE, unknown, same pattern but smaller
-
1. amethyst FAIT EN BELQIQUE
2. same pattern amber BELGE
3. amber BELGIQUE
4. pink same pattern PAVILLONS BELGIQUE
-
1. pink butter dish BELGIQUE
2. set of four amber bowls BELGE
3. set of three pink, two are marked MADE IN BELGIUM, the smallest PAVILLONS BELGIUM
4. green Inwald'ish BELGIQUE
-
1. pink unknown BELGIQUE
2. unknown clear dish with metal lid MADE IN BELGIUM
3. tumble-up water bottle, "VSL-ish", tumbler faintly marked BELGE under the base
4. amber Inwald tulips vase FAIT EN BELGIQUE
-
1. Walther'ish LUXOR - FAIT EN BELGIQUE
2. Brockwitz'ish no. 6924 - FAIT EN BELGIQUE
3. blue unknown butterfly - FAIT EN BELGIQUE
4. blue unknown butterfly, top view
-
some thoughts regarding that unknown blue butterfly vase with FAIT EN BELGIQUE mark:
this vase looks VERY Brockwitz'ish
as far as I know anybody has ever seen or handled the item no. 6941 shown in Brockwitz' 1941 catalogue
Brockwitz was closed in 1941 which means that a mould for this design possibly was never manufactured
about 10 years ago, I was informed by Belgian collectors that glass 'FAIT EN BELGIQUE' is most likely originating from Verreries de Scailmont Manage - unfortunately corresponding pages/links have expired and are no longer available
Question: Is this blue butterfly vase an amended Brockwitz produced by Scailmont?
-
Jay, should you need better photos of any of the above, please let me know.
@all: I appreciate your thoughts! :-*
-
Pamela, thanks for so much effort. I'll tabulate them and do some html and then I think we will have a very interesting insight.
The mark 'Pavillions' is completely unknown in literature, and quite special information, since we know of NO genuine mark from this factory (i.e. Pavillions á Beignée (Manage)). It could be a vital clue, so a photo of that mark would be very useful! We have little info about the factory, and cannot immediately exclude the possibility that they are 'players' in this story.
I also talked to both Ann P and Eliane B, from which some more clues have been found.
In general I think all are agreed that, despite the variation in the markings, these are all examples from a single source, made during a longish period. (and no evidence it was in Belgium)
Although we all suspect the culprit, there is now a chance that we can actually prove it! (I'm chasing after that story, now...)
Once I can get all the information online as a draft, I will post the link here for you (all)
-
1. Walther ATLAS bowl - left marked BELGIQUE - right no mark
2. left: Belgique fire-polished right: 'Edelglas' feet and top rim cut and polished mirror-shiny
-
1. two Inwald bowls # 9801: topaz on the left marked BELGE, pink on the right marked BELGE and FAIT EN BELGIQUE
2. difference in height
3. topaz BELGE
4. pink BELGE below base, FAIT EN BELGIQUE inside the bowl
-
1. two Inwald vases # 9458 pink and amber, both marked FAIT EN BELGIQUE
2. top view
-
1. pink PAVILLONS MADE IN BELGIUM
2. MADE IN BELGIUM
3. PAVILLONS
-
1. pink 'star' pattern PAVILLONS BELGIQUE
2. PAVILLONS
3. BELGIQUE
4. both marks inside the bowl
-
One more: Walther 1934 VIKTORIA
1. left amber FAIT EN BELGIQUE - right pink original Walther
2. FAIT EN BELGIQUE - the swirls of this amber bowl are textured ('orange peel'), something the original Walther range has not
-
I've redrafted the BELGE page with the pictures.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/bedraft/index436.html
Happy to hear all contributions....
-
Thank you, Jay :-*
Looking at Elaine's vase - here is mine
only 168 mms height, amber colour, marked BELGE
the band of roses makes it look very Brockwitz'ish ARIADNE range
the last (of 4) photo shows two clear white original ARIADNE and BELGE vase
-
I'm not sure if this is the VSL pressed glass marks wanted but here is one I found on a tumbler.
-
That's very interesting. Could we have a picture of the tumbler? it will help us to put a date to the mark!
-
Here's the tumbler itself.
-
This may be a better image
-
This goblet hasn't got a name, just the number 54715 and is illustrated in the 1913 catalogue. How long it has been and was in the catalogue is unknown to me but it can't have been for much longer after that. It is normal that it is marked in English as up to 70% of the production was exported at the time.
-
Thanks Anne,a poignant date indeed!,Is that why you say production would not have been very long.
-
Difficult to say exactly, because of a lot of documentation that has been lost. Some of the glasses are dated for the design +/- 1900 and some 1922 but I don't know how accurate that is and when a design finally came into production. The whole series is illustrated in the 1913 catalogue but in the late 20ies they must have definitely stopped these productions as everything became more 'clean lined' so to speak. They're indestructible these glasses, great fun in different colours in summer with a (spiced up 😋) lemonade on the terrace.
-
Thanks again.
-
I'm so glad I found this thread again and that you're making progress.
I don't think anyone's mentioned the possible Walther "Merkur" bowl on Pamela's Amazing PressGlas Website also with the Fait en Belgique mark?
Has anything found so made it any clearer whether it is a Merkur bowl or not?
-
Thank you so very much for the alert and for pointing to my own items! :-* - Another incorrect attribution on my pages!
I had completely forgotten about that one and it is nice to get corrected finally, now that we know who the maker is! This bowl belongs to my collection for decades, hence the quite early, low number 00813.
The pattern is so similar to Radeberg's 1927 resp. Walther's 1933 MERKUR that in the late 1990ies I 'decided' this must be Walther as well :-[
I enclose the old images for all to see - and another photo comparing Radeberg/Walther white MERKUR to rectangular pink 'FAIT EN BELGIQUE'
Thank you again!
-
Last month I was lucky to find another vase marked FAIT EN BELGIQUE - here it is - enjoy!
-
All the research in this thread has been summarised and conclusions drawn:
-
Fantastic piece of work - thank you, Jay! :-*