Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: w8happiness on February 28, 2013, 07:29:20 AM
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The last weight in 2012 - I bought it right before Christmas- is a "Lily of the Valley" weight and it resists to attribution, I bothered a couple of colleagues already and found out, that there are some similar examples in their collections out there:
ca. 5 in Germany, one in Austria, and one in France, finally two in the USA.
To prevent any influence to your suggestions, I leave all the known discussion results out and
add pictures and metric data for your consideration...
I have put this topic here, because it is not really an unresolved case - just a search for more examples and ideas!
Measures: 2,6 in diameter, 1,8 in high, SG 2,61, UV long wave shows a clear pink.
The SG of 2,61 refers to the actual measure result, and will be more towards 2,7 owed to the numerous bubbles...
To give an idea of shape and size, the weight in question is shown paired up with a
nice little Perthshire PP2, before 1978, - this decision is random choice !! Questions: Are there weights like this in your collection?
Where did you find them?
Any idea how old and where they are from?
I would like to ask the Glass Message Community
for further reports and comments and any ideas for attribution.
New results will be eventually published in the Paperweight Collectors Circle News and -depending on what will occur, in the PCA Bulletin...
Thanks and kind regards from Austria, Erhard
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I have recently seen another example (since the New Year, and almost identical to this one) in an antique centre in the north of England. Same twists and the characteristic lampwork floating on the colour ground.
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Hello and thanks a lot Simon,
I must add I bought the weight in an online shop in Newark/Nottinghamshire,
the place with the biggest (?) antique fair in Europe...
I do not know if they remove a pic of a sold article, kind regards Erhard...
....made a quick check - the picture is not online any more...
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Massive amount of bubbles. Is it a sign of how good the chinese are getting?
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...the Chinese option also was also pondered; but- the massive bubbles are only situated in the thin blue flash layer, and as decoration on the blossoms; the glass for the surrounding dome and base is perfectly clear; and then: the pontil mark (see picture) reminds much more of Vasart (in this case without grinding as they have normally) or Strathearn...UV reaction does not fit to any Chinese - and I like some of these- they made attractive white grounds and fascinating single flowers; moreover,
most Chinese have a frosted or plain polished base with irregularities- are there any with broken pontils of that kind?
...and if it really was Chinese, why doesn't this type appear more often? I'd try to get more of those!
The glass is of excellent brilliance and SG near 2,7 is too heavy for most Chinese weights' SG...
The pontil mark is slim and the base plain and concave - does this point at a glassmaker who is familiar with making wine glasses? Let's see...I'm most excited to hear what our moderator will say about the pontil mark!
Erhard
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Erhard, if by "our moderator" you mean me, then I would prefer to see more detail of the pontil mark from a straight-on viewpoint. But I agree that the finishing of the base is unlike Chinese work.
I have seen at least one weight like this before but cannot recall when or where. I have checked a couple of Chinese trade catalogues from 2000 and there is nothing like these weights in those.
On the point of "fascinating single flowers" from China, while browsing the trade catalogues, I spotted two weights that I had not really noticed in detail before: one is a single flower with stem and leaves set in a blue stave basket ... just like a Paul Ysart design! The other is a "spread" of flower heads and stems with a garland of alternating millefiri canes and filigree twists set "horizontally" ... another Paul Ysart design known from his early weights!
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Thank you very much, Kevin- yes, sounds possessive- but you are our moderator!
attached a straight view of the pontil picture;
Can you please show a pic of the Chinysart single flowers??-
I have a big (over 3 in) round one
from the late 80ies, an orange lily blossom with 8 petals and 8 yellow stamen, and 8 peripheral bubbles,
simple, but effective, over clear ground, frosted base. It bears a plastic label HOFF INTERIEUR (this is/was a German firm trading with gifts and decoration of all kinds).
Attached also a picture of a 3 " Chinese Murano- won it 2002- my favourite so far- as it is mimicking a French Classic posy weight, I suppose. Frosted base, high dome...
Thanks and kind regards, Erhard
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Erhard, I think the weight I saw was the very same one you purchased, just that I'm confused about the date. -Simon
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Thanks a lot Simon, I checked my payment was made the 21st Nov 2012 and the weight arrived a week to ten days later.
Maybe the shop left the picture online for a while...
A colleague from Germany saw one at a Boisgirard auction/Paris, some time ago, I'll try to find out when, but it was attributed Bohemian as far as he remembers (which is judged questionable/not proven)
-Erhard
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http://www.ebay.de/itm/380638493940?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.de%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D380638493940%26_rdc%3D1
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Hi.
There was an article about 'Lily of the Valley' paperweights like this one in the most recent issue of the PCC Newsletter (Issue 111, April 2013). No one seems to be sure what country they are from, and so do not know the maker. I have not been contacted with any further information since the Newsletter was issued, so I suspect they remain as 'unknown European'.
My guess would be that they were made in the Alsace or Belgium, but it is only a guess.
Alan
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Hello everybody,
the Lily of the Valley weight has laid back into oblivion,
unfortunately there are no messages to shed a little light
on where it was made, and when...-
I'll put it here once again with proper illustration, maybe it
will be recognized by someone one day....or moved to the unresolved box,
cheers Erhard
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...this is total coincidence,
I have pulled up my search this morning,
and the weight sold via eBay was one of the
pieces I got to compare with for the PCC article;
will I bid along? I do not know yet. A crowd of
six or seven known examples is tempting to do so...
A recent opinion locates weights like those
to the Rive de Gier/Loire area but there is still no
evidence...
kind regards, Erhard
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I have merged three separate topics into one and changed the title for all posts to be the same. Please use this thread for all discussion on these weights.
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Well done, thanks a lot Kevin,
Cheers Erhard
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when you first posted that weight I looked up lily-of-the-valley for information (I had seen that weight for sale and ummed and aahed about buying it at the time).
What I found on Wikipedia under the heading Symbolic was the following:
'At the beginning of the 20th century it became tradition in France to sell lily of the valley on international labour day, May 1, by labour organisations and private persons without paying sales tax (on that day only) as a symbol of spring. '
There didn't appear to be another country for which it had long term connections, except for that it was the floral emblem of Yugoslavia. It is the symbol of quite a few organisations again according to Wikipedia.
m
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Hi flyingfree,
Thank you so much for this valuable facts!
It really helps, because the glass has a certain "French" quality (and UV fluo) to it;
my hope is that the spiral ribbons, flowers or torsades might have found their way into
another product, like a vase, a seal or ashtray...
The lily of the valley does certainly NOT belong to the group of weights from Bulgaria, with diverse mottos for
spring break, easter, birthday, christmas and anniversaries laid out in white glass powder spatter,
showing flowers, trees and short texts like "Tschestit prolet" or "Tsch D" and so on;
but their glass is different, pontil/bottom of other type, profile high, and the white spatter parts seem to be serial/sieved through a matrix.
Cheers and kind regards, Erhard
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You're welcome :)
I have also just looked under 'May Day' and also found this on Wikipedia
'France
On May 1, 1561, King Charles IX of France received a lily of the valley as a lucky charm. He decided to offer a lily of the valley each year to the ladies of the court. At the beginning of the 20th century, it became custom to give a sprig of lily of the valley, a symbol of springtime, on May 1. The government permits individuals and workers' organisations to sell them tax-free. Nowadays, people may present loved ones either with bunches of lily of the valley or dog rose flowers.'
So it seems the lily of the valley has quite a long history in France.
Also, have you looked under St Louis, Clichy etc for small vases in filigrana or opaline that have a spiral twisted cane as a rim trail. I can see that the base of the paperweight is not how I would think (but what would I know?) a French paperweight from one of those houses would finish their bases, but I believe they did make vases with fluted rims that have a spiral twist rim trail, so perhaps other French makers might have done as well? Perhaps those canes were used in paperweight production as well?
m
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Very nice!
Indeed, the finish of the base (broken pontil mark) is not consistent with any French paperweight maker of the "classic period"- they show all kinds of finish from polished concave to flat-
so this is one of the points for dating it to "post classic"- after 1900, but maybe before the 1950ies.
Stunning is the fact, that the metal rod for making it was much slimmer than the tool that Vasart used- at first sight, the base looks like a Vasart base, except for the much smaller pontil mark...
The style of Art Nouveau/Art Deco would have been much more elegant, and possibly had used other techniques like etching or metal lusters and shades- compared to what I said, the lilies have a somehow native, rural makeshift- this ethnic touch also makes me think of postclassic European weights...but again most of these have a flat ground base finish;
You are right- the filigrana and twisted canes are seen as rims, but I feel they must be much finer- maybe trial material that was still good enough for a series of friggers?
What it is certainly NOT: Russia 19th century, Murano, Bohemian/Silesian, classic French i.e. Clichy,St.Louis,Baccarat,St.Mande- and NOT Scottish-which I regret the most- (Ysart,Vasart,Strathearn or Perthshire).
Another possibility- I have seen Gentile weights from West Virginia/USA, they use foam grounds sometimes, but higher profiles and bigger size. The Coke is Coca Cola weights have the translucent cushions, but with inserted bubble nets.
I agree with Alan, who thinks of Belgium or France/Alsace or Loire district as a source, and hope for a local museum find to get some evidence! I also will ask Boisgirard for their thoughts,
cheers Erhard
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I've not seen the article I'm afraid and forgive me if you've already noted this :) I'm aware I've very little idea about paperweights at all ;D
but have you seen the weight on page 142 of Paperweights (Jargstorf) It has a wrapped type twist cane surround. Although different to this one, it is slightly more rustic than the twisted canes used for the rims on St Louis/Clichy vases I think. The weight is from Val St Lambert.
m
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Having gone online there are quite a few Val St Lambert weights with twisted cane surrounds so I'm guessing you already have :)
I did find this one
http://www.paperweight-mall.com/vsl8.html
but I'm sure you've already seen this
m
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Hi.
I think the VSL twisted torsades (a typical feature of their paperweights) are very different in structure from the twisted stems and other elements of the Lily of the Valley weights. They are, as you note, more rustic than Clichy or Saint-Louis vase rims - but the paperweights themselves are rather more rustic too. That is part of the charm of them for me - I have about a dozen of them.
There is a well illustrated article on Val St Lambert in the August 2012 PCC Newsletter.
Alan
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I had a good look at the Val St Lambert weights on line last night - they're lovely. I can see the attraction in the variety and complexity of their designs :)
m
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on page 74 of Paperweights (Jargstorf) there is a weight with a white and red circle (no.3 in picture). I don't know if it's the same as the red and white twisted decoration on the lily of the valley weight but might be worth looking at if you haven't already seen it.
m
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Hi,
haven't seen it yet,
thanks a lot I'll check it!!!
kind regards,
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on page 74 of Paperweights (Jargstorf) there is a weight with a white and red circle (no.3 in picture). I don't know if it's the same as the red and white twisted decoration on the lily of the valley weight but might be worth looking at if you haven't already seen it.
m
... a colleague looked it up in the Jargstorf book "Paperweights" (1991),
as I do not have it yet...
but he said there is no picture but the page 74 is about Riesengebirge weights-
so is 74 the right page number? Can you please check?
or is it a different Jargstorf book?
- would you be so kind and show a scan or photo of the page? Thanks a lot, e.
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weight no 3 page 74 is a Bohemian weight with millefiori - but it also has a red and white twisted ring circling the millefiori (I don't know what you paperweight people call it... is it a torsade maybe?) - it was the red and white ring I was referring to to be able to compare to the red and white twist on your weight :)
m
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m - yes, "torsade" is the correct term - as per the standard meaning of the word.
As for the similarity (or not!) of the twisted threads in the weight in Jargstorf and Erhard's item ...
In the Jargstorf book, the twist is formed from a flattened lenth of thread with one side solid white and the other side solid red. When twisted it has a shape the same as when a thin strip of paper is twisted.
In Erhard's weight the twist is formed with a translucent red rod with a thin white thread applied down one part of the length. When twisted, the white thread can be seen through the red and the whole length is smooth sided.
These are different techniques resulting in a different type of twist.
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Thanks Kev :)
I can see now it is formed differently.
m
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Erhard, I have sent you a message via the GMB regarding another piece.
Kind regards
m
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Hello everybody,
the Lily of the Valley weight has laid back into oblivion,
unfortunately there are no messages to shed a little light
on where it was made, and when...-
I'll put it here once again with proper illustration, maybe it
will be recognized by someone one day....or moved to the unresolved box,
cheers Erhard
GOOD NEWS!!
The hawkeye of flying free gave notice about an ashtray on the electric market place, and I bought it.
It has the "twisted ribbon" and three flowers - green Twist torsade leaves- and has got a
green overlay lid. Watch out! A paperweight related object though- as soon it has arrived,
I'll post some self made pics here... deaf knittely http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif the same maker as the lily o.t.v.!!!
I want to respect the seller's Picture Copyrights so I don't paste anything here head over heels...
Thanks a lot to FLYING FREE- I owe you this fascinating purchase from France- which might be a trace
for further ID ;-))) cheers e.http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif
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GOOD NEWS!!
The hawkeye of flying free gave notice about an ashtray on the electric market place, and I bought it.
It has the "twisted ribbon" and three flowers - green Twist torsade leaves- and has got a
green overlay lid. Watch out! A paperweight related object though- as soon it has arrived,
I'll post some self made pics here... deaf knittely http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif the same maker as the lily o.t.v.!!!
I want to respect the seller's Picture Copyrights so I don't paste anything here head over heels...
Thanks a lot to FLYING FREE- I owe you this fascinating purchase from France- which might be a trace
for further ID ;-))) cheers e.http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif
and bad news: ashtray was broken while being packed- whatever that means- I agreed to a paperweight as substitute and got a nice Little Kerry Glass Irish weight---will pass it on a.s.a.p.--- at least, I have asked the seller if I can publish his Pictures, and I'm waiting for his ok, ---;-(( E.
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ooooh noooo! I can't believe it :o
Can't they send you the pieces, or at the very least, the piece with the canes in so you can look at it and judge comparison, and see the surrounding glass?
Darn it! unbelievable.
m
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ooooh noooo! I can't believe it :o
Can't they send you the pieces, or at the very least, the piece with the canes in so you can look at it and judge comparison, and see the surrounding glass?
Darn it! unbelievable.
m
yes...hit shappens...I suggested them to send the pieces OR alternatively a paperweight of the same Price class, and did not want to argue further. My personal thought, the ashtray was being watched and bought out during the auction ending, which would be not conform to the auction platform rules, but maybe more profitable... similar is the last second "sniping" done by automatic bidding machines...I have sometimes watched this and find it simply annoying...
what remains, is EVIDENCE that this style is appearing in FRANCE, and is labelled "Murano" in this case - which is 100% wrong; I vote for France(Alsace, or Rive de Gier) or Belgium, 1920-1950.... a Russia option was proved false, as the Russian weights have a different specific weight and UV reaction. Bohemia/Silesia is also ruled out.
Frustration almost gone, Kind regards e.
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and that was my thought also! >:( damn, I have been searching for this since you posted the weight ;D
Just a question - I am of course aware that glass travels a long way, but I just wondered if you look at where that was being sold from (the region) were there any glassmakers that are known around that area going back in time?
We used to own a house down there, I was only ever aware of wine at the time ;D not of knowing of any glass specifically, but there is a glassmaker based down there, or was a few years ago, and I recall one town having the maker and a glass gallery etc. so perhaps glass was historic in the region?
Just a thought, because of the type of item.
m
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I replied above but just wanted to add, that the applied rim in the different colour is interesting.
I'm not sure how but it might also help id the maker eventually?
If you do get permission to post pictures, it might help to also post it in the General glass board section.
m
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I replied above but just wanted to add, that the applied rim in the different colour is interesting.
I'm not sure how but it might also help id the maker eventually?
If you do get permission to post pictures, it might help to also post it in the General glass board section.
m
thanks a lot!....yes I checked the region for glass makers- nothing suspicious , but its more TRUFFLE and wine,
the green rim is very interesting- maybe decanter/wine bottles/luxury commemorative glass decoration...
have got written permission to use /publish the pics, and subsequently gave positive feedback,
kind regards E.
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GOOD NEWS!!
The hawkeye of flying free gave notice about an ashtray on the electric market place, and I bought it.
It has the "twisted ribbon" and three flowers - green Twist torsade leaves- and has got a
green overlay lid. Watch out! A paperweight related object though- as soon it has arrived,
I'll post some self made pics here... deaf knittely http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif the same maker as the lily o.t.v.!!!
I want to respect the seller's Picture Copyrights so I don't paste anything here head over heels...
Thanks a lot to FLYING FREE- I owe you this fascinating purchase from France- which might be a trace
for further ID ;-))) cheers e.http://www.glassmessages.com/Smileys/classic/grin.gif
Good News part two-
a very experienced colleague from Austria spotted a Lily of the valley weight in an auction in Germany!! It is the usual green spiral stem and leaves, five bell blossoms, and the characteristic spiral ending ribbon underneath. It is on clear ground and labelled "French 19th Century"---of course I will bid along, and have written permission to publish some Pictures they have sent to me- in case I will not win I can/may place them here...
the auction house was very helpful, but as I am current bidder, I do not want to stir the Pond too much...
Furthermore, Mr. Jean Wurtz from France sent me a very Kind letter, saying that he saw weights of this design and
with a Determination- Givors glass works, south of Lyon, France....I really hope this will be confirmed or corrected some day,
Kind regards, Erhard
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Hi Erhard. I have corresponded with Jean Wurz about these pieces in the past, and had the suggestion of Rive-de-Giers (about 10 km from Givors) as maker. I was also given Rive-de-Giers as the source of a fairly dull paperweight I bought in Annecy a few years ago, by the shop owner. There were certainly glass factories in the 19th century in the valley that leads from Givors to St Etienne, and there are records of them importing large numbers of workers from Murano. Sadly, no records of paperweights to date!
Alan
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Hi Alan! Wonderful- thanks a lot! I have found that a very big historical glass making site with buildings and infrastructure in this Region was destroyed recently- so maybe only written record /catalogs/photos etc. are remaining?
I have a vague suspect that this group of products may be friggers from a post classic era before WW II (1920/30), partly from the "naive/sauvage/folk art" appearance, and partly from the small numbers that show up, totally different compared to others late French weights such as the so called Baccarat Dupont, made in this era... and other French production obviously started again in the 1950ies, so this "folk art" group would fill a gap at least,
Kind regards e.
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http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A8ves_de_Carmaux_de_1892-1895
http://econmemoirs.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/glassworkers-of-carmaux-review.html
I haven't looked to see whether this fits in terms of dates but wondered if you had come across this glassworks in France?
m
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Hi m. Interesting - thanks - I had not heard of this factory before (but others may have done).
I think it helps illustrate a point I have long tried to make. Namely, we trend to attribute paperweights to those few factories we know about. For example, you only have to look at paperweight books from the 1950s / 1960s to see that there were only 3 (maybe 4) French factories as far as the authors were concerned. And Old English paperweights were considered to be either Bacchus or Islington (or Whitefriars, which was completely wrong) - with Richardson dismissed as a minor player at best. We now know that the majority of Old English paperweights were made by Walsh Walsh, Arculus and Richardson - and also that there are a good number around we cannot attribute at present.
I suspect there are a lot more factories that have made a few paperweights at some time, and which we are yet to identify - and that this is true of most glass making countries in Europe.
Alan
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Just in case someone tries to search in the future:
Verrerie Sainte Clothilde
Glassworks Carmaux
Alan, I just came across this through looking up Joan Scott's work via something else so thought it might come in useful in the future.
I'd not known of them before (but that's not saying anything) however I'd not come across them mentioned in anything else I'd looked up, and I've been doing quite a lot of searching on old French glass.
The information gives an interesting social perspective. This is something I also came across in another piece of work from an American who had been 'on tour' to check out the 'competition', at around the same time or just a few years after, and who had been looking at Bohemian, English and Belgian glassworks. I find it fascinating to know the social implications of the industry as well as the glass produced.
m
m
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http://www.carmaux.fr/Patrimoine-verrier-_33.php
It seems Saint Clothilde produced bottles in the main.
It says buyers were from the areas of
Montauban, Toulouse and Bordeaux.
A little more information here although I found it difficult to understand. Does it say that another later glassworks arose out of the closure of Verreries Saint Clothilde? Albi glassworks from 1896?
There is a museum in the area that has a collection of antique glass
http://www.museeverre-tarn.com/spip.php?rubrique26&lang=fr
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Hi m.
I too read it to say that the striking workers finally managed - with donations - to set up their own factory at Albi.
As you say, the social history and the impact of changing working practices in the 19th century glass industry is fascinating: I believe the only reason we have any Islington paperweights is because Rice Harris (owner of the Islington Glass Works) brought in a group of skilled French glass workers as strike breakers in 1848. I suspect that some of these came from Baccarat.
Alan
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That's interesting. There were also French workers employed in other English factories around that time iirc? I've just been reading about English and German glassworkers who decamped to Norway in the 1700's as well - it seems for quite a long period the glass industry was a good way to work abroad. I always think of travel as being a fairly recent thing, but clearly not so.
Sorry, that's diverted this post a bit. I apologise.
m
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Hi flying free
Again somewhat off topic but interesting!
Immigrant glassworkers go back much further - Sir Robert Mansell used workers from Murano and
Antwerp in his English glasshouses as far back as 1647 enticed here by an act passed in the
1640's granting naturalisation to foreign glassworkers. Sir George Hay poached some of
Sir Roberts Italian glassmakers to set up the Scottish glass industry at Loch Maree in 1712.
Best regards
Derek
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Hello everybody,
what seems off-topic is exactly describing the problem!
A French seller describing an ashtray with the spiral flowers inside as "Murano"- so was it made in France, but by workers immigrated from some place else (Murano?)-
How do antique Baccarat canes move into Russian (Maltsov) vases?
Why are Islington canes in fact French (see Alan's results in PCA and PCC Newsletters etc.)?
-another question could be, does the group of objects stand on it's own, ot does it pretend to be something else?
-on Monday I will know if I've won the next example...
In fact, "wandering" canes are in fact "wandering workers" in some cases... and lampwork is more fragile, so it surely was not shipped or transported a long way before encasing, but made in the place and encased immediately; this may be the difference, because millefiori cane slices can be put in boxes and shipped any place without suffering any damage- lampwork surely won't...Kind regards, E.
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...have won the lily of the valley, by courtesy of (I hold email of permission) -Auktionshaus Walldorf, Walldorf, Germany, Ms. v. Hafenbroedl- here are two more pictures,
I called the seller, it is attributed most likely from France, late-last quarter of 19th century.
Will soon see if the SG and UV tests will be consistent with the blue L.O.V. weight!
kind regards, E.
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A good win
Maybe the date ' it is attributed most likely from France, late-last quarter of 19th century '
ties in with the advent of this
'France
On May 1, 1561, King Charles IX of France received a lily of the valley as a lucky charm. He decided to offer a lily of the valley each year to the ladies of the court. At the beginning of the 20th century, it became custom to give a sprig of lily of the valley, a symbol of springtime, on May 1. The government permits individuals and workers' organisations to sell them tax-free. Nowadays, people may present loved ones either with bunches of lily of the valley or dog rose flowers.'
I look forward to finding out where these came from :)
Derek, thanks for the further information. I wonder if glass is one of the few industries at the time, to need workers from other countries. For example, I can't see textiles needing incomers to support or develop a new industry iyswim?
m
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I didn't know where to put this information but since we had been discussing French Glass factories, I thought it was an interesting fit here.
It's possible you have already seen this or know about it, but I came across this article written in 1849 for the run-up to the Birmingham Exposition and thought it interesting that they mention the glass industry in Birmingham and then reference comparisons to Munich, St Mande and Murano
'The refined taste which characterises Messrs. Bacchus’ work, and the facility with which, by the employment of English workman only they can now imitate and reproduce the most elaborate varieties of the manufacturies of Munich, St Mande and Murano, scarcely need our commendation.'
(no comments on paperweights and none on Richardson's which is what I was searching for)
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts-idx?type=turn&entity=DLDecArts.JournDesv02.p0019&id=DLDecArts.JournDesv02&isize=M
The journal of design and manufactures
(1850)
The journal of design and manufactures. No. 7. September, 1849, p. [1]
Original papers: Birmingham, its manufactures and approaching exposition of products of industry., pp. [1]-17
m
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Hi. These references to the English makers are always intriguing. There are contemporary comments in journals about paperweights by Bacchus 'and other manufacturers' (no names, sadly), which compare them favourably to 'the many' Bohemian products. That last bit is odd: we find very, very few Bohemian paperweights of that vintage around the UK, but quite a few St Mandé and Clichy. I suspect that unscrupulous retailers were selling certain French paperweights as 'Bohemian', because Bohemian glass commanded a premium.
I too am still searching for evidence that Richardson, Walsh Walsh, William Gammon or various others made some paperweights around 1850...but there may well be information out there that will one day come to light. There has been success with Maltsov catalogues showing Russian plaques and paperweights, and Baccarat catalogues that show the moulded lion and bee paperweights, so we can live in hope.
Alan
Alan
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If I find anything on paperweights I'll post, but really I was searching for Richardson's glass ;D
I just thought it interesting that they mentioned St Mande as a competitor since St Mande seems to be the least talked about/known about compared to St Louis, Clichy and Baccarat here if you see what I mean?
When you mention your article and they say ' the many Bohemian products' do you think they mean vases/goblets etc, or is it implicit that they mean paperweights as a comparison? I only ask because the press seemed obsessed with Bohemia as a competitor around that era, I think because of the development of coloured and cased glass etc and Bohemia being one step ahead at that time, with British glass following in their footsteps (or so it seems to me).
It's a weird thing that article, because they talk gushingly about Rice Harris and Bacchus, then Richardson gets a small mention but they described them as '...monster glass-works'. So on one hand they were obviously huge, but on the other they merit a tiny mention and one picture of a goblet. Rather irritating for me, since I'm searching for Richardson pics.
m
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Alan, have you seen in Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914, the reference on page 419 under the list of Richardson's exhibits at Birmingham 1849, no 84. ' Plain egg-shape Specimen'?
m
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***
Hi m. Thanks - I'll check out that reference.
I recall that there are images of Richardson glassware in 'The Art Journal Illustrated Catalogue: The Industry Of All Nations 1851', which is digitised and available online - but maybe you have seen those.
Alan
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thanks Alan, yes I've been trawling books for those as well as online :)
It did occur to me that by 'Specimen' they might mean a specimen vase for one stem, but having looked again at the list, they seem to capitalise the first letter for a particular 'shape' and if they mean 'Vase' they say Vase. So I think the shape will have been called a 'Specimen' and it's plain and egg-shaped therefore ... a paperweight of some sort possibly? otherwise I think they would have called it 'Specimen Vase'.
m
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Alan I've just been re-reading the exhibition catalogue and again you probably already have this info but since the Richardson display mentioned 'egg-shape' Specimen, I thought I'd mention I'd come across this for Rice Harris Islington
https://archive.org/details/artjournalillust00bradrich
page 182
where the author mentions amongst a list of items such as toilet bottles, claret jugs, vases, there is also mention at the end of the sentence of 'specimens of colours combined by casing or coating; specimens of threaded or Venetian glass' - is it possible that by 'specimens' they mean paperweights?
Just thought I'd mention it - I'm probably wrong :)
m
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***
Hi m. I think the word 'specimen' was used then in a similar way to our use of 'object' or 'item' now, and does not imply anything specific. When I looked at the Art Journal in the past I concluded that the threaded glass referred to was probably twist stems of wine glasses, and similar. Around that time the words 'letter weight' were used as much as 'paperweight', and 'millefleurs' was also used. I thinks one needs to find such references to be confident that they refer to what we would now call a paperweight.
Alan
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Another Lily of the Valley to add to the examples. A recent Purchase from an auction house in Ottowa Canada.
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Hi and thanks a lot!
A very exciting find indeed! What makes me wonder is the fact that we
must add CANADA to our list of appearance on the market, so what we
have had of countries so far was
Germany, Northern England, France, United States (?) and now Canada
- except one object that was an ashtray every item was a paperweight...
attached a Picture (courtesy of Andreas Stammwitz) this will be my next
purchase so this is #3 in my collection,
Kind regards E.
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Brought back from a French holiday as a souvenir? (of course they may have just travelled the world courtesy of ebay)
Do you know any French dealers who may have come across these more regularly than once as it were?
m
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Another Lily of the Valley to add to the examples. A recent Purchase from an auction house in Ottowa Canada.
lol.....Ottawa
Hi and thanks a lot!
A very exciting find indeed! What makes me wonder is the fact that we
must add CANADA to our list of appearance on the market, so what we
have had of countries so far was
Germany, Northern England, France, United States (?) and now Canada
Kind regards E.
BBM
Thank You!!
Yes, Canada should be added. I have said that (and so have others) a long time ago too.
Yeah, I am from there......LOL ;D
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lol.....Ottawa
Apologies from a southern neighbor.
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***
Hi. We got our best Bacchus from Canada some years ago, and also (later) one of the original Belgian frit footballer upright paperweights. I guess quite a few pieces travelled with immigrants.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
yes that's in fact an aspect worth tracking- probably it helps a bit
for a date frame? Maybe yes- exiles happened before and during
wartimes, so in this case maybe before WW1 or before WW 2...
French speaking Canada - French paperweight? Could be...
In the late 19th century, when the USA was chosen a lot-
for that reason so many of the "Bohemian-Silesian-old German" postclassic (after 1850) weights are found
in Pennsylvania, the Grand Lake Area and further
to the West... somehow proven by crosscheck with Wikipedias
Immigration maps...
At this Point, I am glad to see that the discussion has resurrected, in this sense ;-)
a happy Easter time to you all,
Kind regards, Erhard
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Have you checked out C.H.F. Muller, Hamburg?
Thinking:
I was going through this
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qq1Z0EASop4C&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=identifying+glass+from+the+buquoy+glass+factory+at+the+Nove+Hrady+estate+in+the+17th+century&source=bl&ots=9qhevzDvYi&sig=ptvhpfl8aKlkYhEXrCqhJdfiKIs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMIkdGk59eRyAIVIyrbCh0hhQ1_#v=onepage&q=identifying%20glass%20from%20the%20buquoy%20glass%20factory%20at%20the%20Nove%20Hrady%20estate%20in%20the%2017th%20century&f=false
and got to page 65 and saw a design (No.21 foliage on bowl) that reminded me of your paperweight. The colours in the twisted cane with the yellow just make me think Germany rather than France, so an instinct rather than any real evidence ;D and I remember why I'd been so interested in the canes on the pieces I saw on Monday in Amsterdam - it was because the way the twist was done reminded me of the twist in this weight.
Glaskilian shows this piece which might give you an idea why I thought of your cane.
http://www.glaskilian.de/Seltenes_Fluegelglas.185+B6YmFja1BJRD0xODUmTD0xJnByb2R1Y3RJRD0xOTgwNSZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD0xODUmZGV0YWlsPQ__.98.html
I know nothing about these canes or anything though so I'm sorry if this is a red herring and not relevant.
m
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***
Hi. Interesting documents, but I struggle to make any link between a design painted in enamels on glass (page 65 to which you refer), and a solid encapsulated glass paperweight (the theme of this thread) - other than the simple inclusion of something with twists in it, in each case. As even the Romans used twists in their glass designs, I doubt that the presence of a twist helps much. Or have I missed something, or looked at the wrong item?
Alan
Alan
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I can't explain my thought processes or what stirs our imagination into thinking there might be a link Alan. It just does.
Kevin pointed out either earlier in this thread or on another thread, that the way the twist was done was particular. Something about the Muller glasses I saw on Monday made me stop and take a close look, but at the time I couldn't remember what it was that made me do so. It was the style of the twists (likewise the style of the twists on the stem of the goblets of some 17th century Venetian glass - but they would be the wrong century). Because they stirred my memory about the style of the twist on the lily of the valley paperweight. I meant to post then but forgot.
CHF Muller was not a company I'd read anything about before so I looked them up when I got back. They made some very very interesting and diverse stuff.
I meant to post on this thread then but forgot.
Then I was reading about something else and came across the enamelled glass again. The design on the enamels of the flowers and the twists and the colours in the decoration reminded me again of the twist on the Muller stems and so I posted.
Sometimes, it's the little details that can lead to a new avenue to explore. That's why I posted.
I don't believe paperweight makers work completely in isolation, never to be influenced by regional ideas, colours or styles whether on wood, porcelain or enamel. Who is to know what makes someone design a paperweight with a specific decoration? It could be they saw a piece (any piece, wood, glass, pottery, or a painting) in a museum/exhibition and liked the colours, or the design. It might be that they had their own firm ideas but had to use the materials available in the region. Either way, it is possible that there are some regional influences.
In this case the colours on the design on the enamelled piece and the twist in the stem of the glass made me think Germany and CFH Muller all within the same few days (and Muller actually might have been right timing for the period), so I thought I would post - kind of like brain-storming really where no idea is a wrong idea if you see what I mean?
Edited to add - I thought this post was posted in the spirit of 'let's see if there are any ideas out there'. I guess how new ideas are viewed depends on the angle they are being viewed from i.e. if you already have firm ideas of where the weight might hail from, then your view of 'new' ideas will be coloured by whether or not they fit the given secret parameters of the country of origin. If however there are no firm parameters and there is still everything to play for then it's open for all avenues to explored.
m
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***
Hi. I have no firm ideas about where these 'Lily of the Valley' paperweights come from...somewhere in Europe, I feel, rather than the USA or China. On present evidence, I would not rule out Germany.
Alan
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oops that should read
C.H.F. Müller
Sorry. This is the best picture I have - embarrassingly bad but their lighting was terrible and I was trying to photograph other pieces so bad setting.
The online version I found is even worse - in black and white and does not enlarge.
The twist is actually red white and blue and is not the same as the weight, but still,something about it reminded me of the weight.
This is a link to the online versions - they did produce a catalogue at the time, of their glasses so that might be around somewhere.
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/search.html?query=who%3a(M%C3%BCller,%20Glasfabriek%20C.H.F.%20?%20(glasblazer))&rows=24
m
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and the stems were lampworked - so I did wonder whether that might mean that perhaps a company like that could also make paperweights?
I don't really understand all the technicalities but it was just something that occurred to me.
m
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Update January 2016
Hello everybody,
just a note that a fellow collector purchased 8 (eight) weights of this type recently all from one spot...(Germany).
The more important fact is, there is one on eBay now, coming from Belgium, along with Val St Lambert weights-
this could be significant or not, but a Belgian source was not yet considered...the twist canes could well have been
made at a Belgian glass work (not necessarily Val St. Lambert but who knows) as well....
cheers Erhard
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is the orange colour in this weight not significant?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51681.msg309346.html#msg309346
m
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would Lauscha /Thuringia be a possibility?
m
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Hi and thanks a lot,
the problem is, my fellow collector who holds possibly the majority of this weight type is- among other fields- specialist in Lauscha and Thuringia/Silesia/questionable attributions- he would have noticed it!
There was a little hope with the cadmium orange for dating- but the colour was in use after the 1860ies in all Kinds of glassware,
Kind regards Erhard
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this has nothing really in common with the lily of the valley weight but because it is 'rustic' it made me think of this one
I have seen plain paperweights with designs similar to this a few times but this is a strange item. So thought I'd post it here just in case it might lead to something one day:
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0372/m023603_00097_p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=RETROUVER&FIELD_98=LIEUX&VALUE_98=Vierzon%20&NUMBER=10&GRP=0&REQ=%28%28Vierzon%29%20%3aLIEUX%20%29&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P&SPEC=3&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=1&MAX3=200&DOM=All
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This looks like it might have something in common with your paperweight.
The way the stems are twisted somehow.
Also the middle of the left hand flower has a coiled twisted red and white cane made - that's the best picture to be able to see it.
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/boule-de-sulfure-presse-papier-/282208612873?hash=item41b4f1b209:g:mPAAAOSw7XZXhRY-
m
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Hi everybody,
yes the seller on eBay had several- I think I saw at least 8 to 10 examples- of this weight
type auctioned and actually sold within the last 2 years.
This massive concentration makes the origin from France (or a region close to France) very plausible...
Resuming, we have found the following types:
only one object with the common green twists ( one ashtray), other than paperweights, was seen but lost...
lily of the valley on green stems over clear ground- this seems to be the simplest version
the same over a foamy blue cushion
other flowers (sunflowers, dahlias, edelweiss, ....) over blue foam
...other colour grounds were observed, a Grey green opaque powder.
Most have a lying S-formed spiral of various colours under the flower- there are some without it.
For dating, I would assume that they were made at some time between 1918 and before 1936, and not
later, because the modest quality of the design would surely not have kept up with the big names as Baccarat, St. Louis and others,
starting again in the early 1950ies.
Moreover, their design relates more to "folk art" and less to flower designs made in the late 19th and early 20th century.
At last, the dome is made of a very excellent and bright clear glass in most cases, and has an UV reaction similar to St. Louis of the 1840ies- light salmon or lavender pink...
The prices realized have increased,
best wishes, E.
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Thank you for your update :)
Do you know what region the seller was from or where they bought the weights from?
m
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Hi m,
a colleague asked the seller already but got no conclusive answer;
maybe the rising prices were a reaction to the request; so we stopped asking;
the seller's location is "metropolitaine" which means somewhere near Paris...
Maybe a regional Museum in France (there were many glassworks closed
in the 1950ies) holds more examples?
Kind regards, E.
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Hi,
here is some literature I found:
https://books.google.at/books?id=VXIScqXKzi8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=verrerie+rhone&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXtfDhi8nPAhXCsxQKHdCKD-0Q6AEIUzAH#v=onepage&q=verrerie%20rhone&f=false
Two factories, a long time defunct, are Verrerie de Veauche and a factory in Rive de Giers and Givors (in the Rhone valley).
Kind regards, Erhard
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here is one search website - I find it hard to use because my French is not good.
But you might have more luck.
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=NOUVEAU&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P
However, I could only find three glass paperweights on searching. That might be because I am not searching all their collections.
m
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here is one search website - I find it hard to use because my French is not good.
But you might have more luck.
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=NOUVEAU&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P
However, I could only find three glass paperweights on searching. That might be because I am not searching all their collections.
m
Hi everybody,
almost six years have passed and now a big collection of Belgian weights is going to be sold.
And there is a new hint for attribution:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/goldfield/catalogue-id-goldfi10031/lot-70cac1be-a721-4a42-95cb-aed600abad34
The auction house or the collector must have had a reason to mention those glassworks, let`s see...
best wishes, me
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Good luck :) Namur?
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Good luck :) Namur?
the auction was at Goldfield in Luxembourg,
the two orange spiralled weights were called
"Charleroi paperweights" which is a town
some twenty miles to the west from Namur.
The reason for this attribution is not clear, maybe
somebody in Belgium knows about it,
best wishes and a happy&sound New Year 2023, Erhard
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were they sold by the Museum of Fine Arts in Charleroi when it closed to move?
Some information here that might be useful at some point - unfortunately the links attached in the article are dead links:
https://charleroi-museum.be/2017/12/18/la-verrerie-une-ruche-humaine-le-pays-de-charleroi-1880-1930/
The museum moved to a new home - if you haven't already contacted them it might be worth trying them for any further information?
m
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just in case this becomes useful at some point even if not for this thread:
A book on google search - Normandy glass makers
Les Verreries de la Normandie 1873
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Les_verreries_de_la_Normandie_les_gentil/tWFLkU5ekb8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=la+verrerie+du+gast&pg=PA336&printsec=frontcover