Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Sue C on March 21, 2007, 01:05:20 PM
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Came across this, www.hebrewhistory.info click factpapers, fasinating reading, five pages on Jewish glass
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Fascinating reading indeed! Thank you very much for that :clap:
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What do you make of chapter 3? whoever wrote it, are they telling us that from the begining all glass makers were Jewish?
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What do you make of chapter 3? whoever wrote it, are they telling us that from the begining all glass makers were Jewish?
Which bit in particular? I took most of the examples in it as a comparison of the peripatetic nature of glass makers and the 'wandering Jews'.
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Hi Leni, VITREUM PLUMBUM, JUDAEUM SLICET,
"Not only lead glass but all glass were then attested by two roman emperors as being made by the jews" dont get me wrong i;m not disputing it, i dont have the education or knowledge to do that, but i have never heard this stated before, and i wondered if anyone else had, whenever i think of glass i think of the Italian's, not the Jew's, it's all very new to me and very interesting.
p.s should this be in the cafe?
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It is suggested that the history of glassmaking goes back to about 4000BC and is linked to the Syrians. The following link is worth reading:
http://www.glassonline.com/infoserv/history.html
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Just had the quickest look through, not too impressive, seems to be using different pages as a references to itself ??? Which is a good way of proving anything you want. The writing style is very mixed modern and archaic so possibly this has just been ripped out of various texts to complete a particular agenda.
Going by the other stuff they also invented cars, carpets and the telephone. So perhaps HHF really stands for Hype History Funnytales ;)
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Dexter, an interesting find.
I have this criticism.
In what appears to be a researched paper, it seems a little odd that the comments from Dr Plot, Page 3, are not referenced.
From which contemporary text/source was Plot's comment taken, which effectively leaves Ravenscroft as exploiter, not innovator?
This is less fact-sheet, more an intellectual interpretation, and thus is clearly open to further academic examination.
Being acutely aware that other comment might be (wrongly) assumed to display anti-semitic tendencies, I will refrain from voicing more doubts and queries.
Regards,
Marcus
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I have seen the "hebrewhistory" site before and I found the sections on glassmaking very interesting. But I was not convinced by several of the "conclusions" drawn, primarily because I could not see actual, referenced evidence for some of the statements made.
I agree with Marcus's query about Dr Plot and the inferences about Ravenscroft. If there was a reference via which the comments could be validated, I would be happier to maintain an open mind about what has been suggested.
But from what I have read elsewhere Ravenscroft very likely learned about the inclusion of oxide of lead in glass batch from a translation by a Dr Merret of an Italian work by Antonio Neri. The "hebrewhistory" articles do not seem to mention Dr Merret, or the work by Neri. Neverthless it is agreed in various literature that Ravenscroft was not the first person to use lead in glass.
But what Ravenscroft did was to use a high proportion of lead in order to produce a glass that met the requirements of the time as determined by The Glass Sellers Company (which has, at least, been mentioned in the website articles). It was this high-lead batch that was referred to as "glass of lead" or "lead glass". And it seems that at about the same time, the use of higher lead content was also developed in Bohemia, but it was the new English glass that made the most impact.
If the earlier glass made by Jews was a lead glass, in the sense of it having a high lead content, then why did this not become the standard batch used by such as the Venetians? Why make items of soda glass with its great fragility, if the stronger "lead glass" formula had been known?
Going back to the quote about, "Not only lead glass but all glass were then attested by two roman emperors as being made by the jews", my interpretation of that was that Jews were definitely known to have been working as glassmakers at the time. I did not read it as meaning that all glassmakers of the time were Jews. And that point has not been proven to my satisfaction in any of the "hebrewhistory" articles - and particularly for the millenia preceding the Roman empire.
But I really ought to read it all again.
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Being acutely aware that other comment might be (wrongly) assumed to display anti-semitic tendencies, I will refrain from voicing more doubts and queries.
These days one is left with the feeling that any discussion of Jewish matters by non-Jewish people, particularly Europeans, is considered anti-semitic. So any academic discussion of a newly proposed history is best not made. Let us just accept it and rewrite history. >:D
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Let us just accept it and rewrite history.
In which case this becomes a cafe topic!
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Being acutely aware that other comment might be (wrongly) assumed to display anti-semitic tendencies, I will refrain from voicing more doubts and queries.
These days one is left with the feeling that any discussion of Jewish matters by non-Jewish people, particularly Europeans, is considered anti-semitic. So any academic discussion of a newly proposed history is best not made. Let us just accept it and rewrite history. >:D
Frank, what makes you think it's only the 'non-Jewish' people who are being accused of anti-semitism? ;) But I mustn't go there >:D
IMHO this is not yet a cafe topic, as it is indeed about glass! It may of necessity wander into other areas, but in the first instance it was the hebrewhistory writings about Jewish (or 'semitic' - and let's not forget that not all semites are / were Jews >:D) glass makers which was raised!
My personal objection is to the (both Jewish and non-Jewish) tendency to make statements about "The Jews" as a conglomerate mass. It seems to me that some of the people mentioned in the article about making glass also happened to be Jewish.
It's only if we stray into discussion of the writer's motives that we are in danger of moving into cafe talk. But that's just my take on it ;)
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Hi Leni, VITREUM PLUMBUM, JUDAEUM SLICET,
"Not only lead glass but all glass were then attested by two roman emperors as being made by the jews" dont get me wrong i;m not disputing it, i dont have the education or knowledge to do that, but i have never heard this stated before, and i wondered if anyone else had, whenever i think of glass i think of the Italian's, not the Jew's, it's all very new to me and very interesting.
p.s should this be in the cafe?
Sue, surely if it was "Roman emperors attesting to glass making by the jews" (my emphasis) this would imply that the Jewish glassmakers were also Italian by nationality, or at the very least somewhere Mediterranean? To be a Jew is a genetic/religious attribute rather than a nationality.
Edited now I've thought about it again....
Of course, Palestine is Mediterranean.... and part of the Roman empire as well, so the first part of the above comment may not apply. However the last sentence does.
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Distorting history is a popular means of control and its certainly not unique to any one group, religious or political. I get very irritated by the need to take ownership of human achievement and to allocate it to a particular philosophy. History is about the events of the past - end of story.
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From the first lines of the first fact paper
The art of glassmaking was born in Akkadia, the Biblical Shinar, the home of the tribe of Terach, father of Abraham, about 2400 B.C.E. It was a Semitic, and then a Jewish art for the next three millennia.1
A definition of Semitic which is not equal to Jew -
Semitic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigre and Tigrinya among others.
As language studies are interwoven with cultural studies, the term also came to describe the extended cultures and ethnicities, as well as the history of these varied peoples as associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution. The late 19th century term "anti-Semitism" came to be used in reference specifically to anti-Jewish sentiment, further complicating the understood meaning and boundaries of the term.
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From the first lines of the first fact paper
The art of glassmaking was born in Akkadia, the Biblical Shinar, the home of the tribe of Terach, father of Abraham, about 2400 B.C.E. It was a Semitic, and then a Jewish art for the next three millennia.1
A definition of Semitic which is not equal to Jew -
Semitic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical "Shem", Hebrew: שם, translated as "name", Arabic: ساميّ) was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Hebrew, Maltese, Tigre and Tigrinya among others.
As language studies are interwoven with cultural studies, the term also came to describe the extended cultures and ethnicities, as well as the history of these varied peoples as associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution. The late 19th century term "anti-Semitism" came to be used in reference specifically to anti-Jewish sentiment, further complicating the understood meaning and boundaries of the term.
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Also from Wikipedia:
"That the Phoenicians used glass as a glaze for pottery was known as early as 3000 BC. However, there is archaeological evidence to support the claim that the first glass was made in Mesopotamia. Glass beads, seals, and architectural decorations date from around 2500 BC. Glass was also discovered by Native Americans during the same time period."
So it would appear simultaneous discoveries of glass-making on two very distant continents, within a similar time-frame.
regards,
Marcus
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Is Phoenecian considered Semitic?
Is the referred website using the term semitic to only refer to jewish matters?
Confusing indeed, historical confusion is of course exploited by many... South American spacemen etc.
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Is Phoenecian considered Semitic?
Is the referred website using the term semitic to only refer to jewish matters?
Confusing indeed, historical confusion is of course exploited by many... South American spacemen etc.
Phoenicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) I am not ancient geography expert but from this definition and those above, Phoenicia would be part of the area included in Semitic definition.
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And Malta comes into the geographic distribution... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages thus adding Mdina, Mtarfa and Gozo glass to a semitic classification. ;)
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Frank wrote:
historical confusion is of course exploited by many... South American spacemen
I do hope you aren't suggesting a new work to be written by Kire NovAnniked "Glass: A History of Atlantis and the Venutians" ::)
Regards,
Marcus
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;D Don't need to do that, there are enough fictional histories on the market already. Still if publishers are actually willing to print 'alternate' theories of history, based on the direction the p**s blows in the wind, then it is hardly surprising that websites crop up doing the same.
Here is an interesting example that is quite serious:
Electric Mirror on the Pharos Lighthouse and Other Ancient Lighting. Is the published book, I was asked to do a review but never had the time. It has spawned websites containing excerpts.
http://ancientskyscraper.com/801.html
http://einhornpress.com/default.aspx
They don't cover glass but separately but it is clearly a part of this