Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: vidrioguapo on May 15, 2007, 11:02:05 PM
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Some of you may have been following the discussion on whitefriars.com about the fake Drunken Bricklayer vases appearing with some regularity on e-bay. But for those of who who are unaware, do not be fooled.
Currently this is one actually being described as Whitefriars
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120120378970
But there are also two others which have been listed and relisted several times and are now being offered just as "Art Glass" . They have been sold, but then appear not to have been paid for (perhaps buyers have seen the discussion on the .com forum? Strangely, the sellers never leave neg feedback!
So far they have been seen in the dark royal blue colour (in the link) a very dark green and a light amber colour. The texture on the middle brick is suspect, they are VERY sharply defined and these colours were definitely not \Whitefriars colours. Now we know that Jonathan Anderson was making some a while back, but they were signed by him...of course, these etched signatures can be erased as we know, but we on whitefriars.com, have not heard anything from Mr.Anderson over the four of five months that these vases have been appearing on e-bay.
The sellers seem mostly to be based in the West Country, Cornwall, Devon, and Bristol, but there also seems to be a link with a seller in London. If you want to see more info, then go to the www.whitefriars.com Forum and look at the topic "Spot the Difference". E-bay has been alerted but so far they still keep appearing and suspect sellers still selling.
BE WARNED!
PS Here's the topic link: http://www.whitefriars.com/bb_orig/viewtopic.php?t=1298
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Hi Emmi, yes I've been watching the conversation on the WF forum with great interest. I agree with you that these are relatively easily spotted to those of us who have handled a lot of Whitefriars however I imagine there must be no shortage of naiive potential buyers out there who haven't. Is there anything I/we can do to put further pressure on eBay - i.e. how does one go about reporting a fake item to eBay - it doesn't seem immediately obvious to me when one follows the 'report this item' link at the bottom of the listing ???
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Try this link
eBay Link (http://cgi1.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?InlineSelfHelpWebForm&userid=&UsingSSL=0&siteid=3&partnerid=2&wftype=125b2f5529ad597e&messageID=4ed620cea49cfb6f&replyTo=4ed620cea49cfb6f&subject=a7d43afd4c96bc8dc4cc9555d181a5299dfb16ae9feb6310789b86cf746e71f84b8ebcf84ca6e23c&bcrumb=e8cea7277b0917a57c7b26237fa2bbb09aef44aeba283d8c6382d19452d2730a8408dcf627e25f32ba661b09e85004970628912a19e9a56270245a5ff66a0ec03b9ae55d80e0ef39&rcode=0659ec1b71759c0459c033ee509e7cb8&instruction=&expirationDate=&err=0&dstURL=&bshowgif=false&bc1=default&bc2=default&bc3=default&bc4=default&bc5=default&bc6=default&bh1=default&bh2=default&bh3=default&bh4=default&bh5=default&bh6=default&history=default&rdir=0)
It should come up with "Account suspension or Restriction"
It's the best we could find for the situation.
Mod: link shortened
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Unfortunately eBay will not accept assertions of fake from their members. From a commercial viewpoint this makes a lot of sense but is frustrating from this side. As the copyright on the vases is long expired anyone can copy them now but selling them as Whitefriars Drunken Bricklayer (When did the name change from 1967 advertised "Three Cubes"?) is misrepresentation.
The only approach is to report the sellers to Trading Standards. Now here is another difficulty as it will take them some time to react. The last case I submitted to them took several months work to provide a detailed dossier and many more months before that got to the top of the pile, sadly too late the trader stopped. In any case ask your local trading standards. However in the case it is a "one-off" sale the seller can claim to have been unaware - they need to be seen doing it repeatedly to make a deliberate misrepresentation case.
If you buy one believing it to be genuine and realise after buying it that it is a fake, you can go to the seller and point out the problem. If they refuse then you can make a police complaint. You cannot do this if you knew it was a fake before buying it and your involvement in this case lets you out of it. You can try and contact buyers of any fakes and they can make a complaint. eBay might get difficult if they know you are contacting sellers.
Another route is for a network of collectors to locate the source of these fakes, if they are being manufactured in quantity then you could ask the manufacturers to add a mark to the mould.
One possible eBay route is to persuade Caithness glass to use their ownership of the Whitefriars name trademark to get eBay to cancel the auctions under the Vero program. Caithness glass will certainly not do the work but they might be persuaded if a group is organised to police for such abuses - providing they can give give Caithness some assurance that they will not file abusve reports. (Auction does not use Whitefriars name as the maker of the vase, for example.)
Please take care when naming names the first post refers to Jonathan Anderson, a glass artist, in a way that could be taken to suggest he is suspected of making fakes. Mr Anderson does own the original mould and has produced some from that mould and he is legally entitled to do so. You do also mention that these new fakes are clearly recognisable as such. It would be helpful if you add a post clarifying this issue, thank you.
Most likely collectors wil just have to come to terms with the fact that as items reach high value, someone will try and exploit that for profit... way of the world. It is always tough when you first experience a fake but it does have a value... it is a confirmation of the status of the copied item and it hones the collectors skills. Our American friends have had to deal with fake and repro in many of their popular collecting lines, such as depression glass. British glass has few fakes. Webb cameo being one. Paul Ysart paperweights - nearly got away with it, first batch was first class but they got greedy and most were made in a glass factory to a much lower standard but the same designs as the first batch...oops. Monart glass has been faked and probably continues to be in increasing quality. Vasart has had some Ysart style pieces represented as Vasart. Strathearn has had the seals ground off and a Basal ring added, but off course is thicker glass than Monart.
Moulds have always been traded by glass companies, expensive to make so if one company cannot sell a design they sell the mould to another company that thinks it can. Or a company closes down and the moulds are sold off.
Sometimes the better fakes get forgotten. During the circa 70's and 80's a Japanese glassworks made some of the best copies of Galle and for years these were sold by all the major auction house. But if you look on line there is nothing available about these and Mark Chervenka "Fakes & Reproductions" only mentions the Tip Galle, these need the "Tip" ground off to become fake. So where are all these Japanese fakes now? Almost certainly circulating as genuine although possibly not through the big name auction houses.
But Cameo glass and paperweights required high levels of skill to make them. High volume glassware is much more easily reproduced and I would expect to be seeing a lot more as prices rise.
The only solution is knowledge and sharing of information.
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I'm hoping these photo's might help Emmi. These are of my Jonathan Anderson bricklayer, which was never intended to delude (hence the pink colour!) and was sold to me as a copy by Mr Anderson a couple of years ago. It's marked #4 2005, see pics.
I can't understand why someone would sell fakes of this style purporting to be originals and not try to copy the original WF colours. Well, hope these help the conundrum in some way.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7050
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7049
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7048
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7046
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7047
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7051
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Thanks Frank and Max.
With regard to my reference to Jonathan Anderson. I was merely informing that Mr. Anderson is known for having made some reproductions from original moulds in a small selection of colours different from the originals. His output was , I understand, fairly small, and as you can see from Max's photo, he signed and dated the items. Although there was some heated discussion at the time, my personal view is that , we know of them and have come to terms with them. They are clearly reproductions and were sold as such.
It would be helpful I suppose to hear from Mr. Anderson, to see if he can shed any light on the emergence of these current Bricklayers and maybe to inform us of anything he may know.
I do believe there is a BIG difference between reproductions clearly marked as such and Fakes which are described to deceive.
My main point of the original posting was to alert the general glass community of these items.
Emmi
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... and not try to copy the original WF colours...
Much easier to reproduce the shape than the colour, the fakes could be made in a studio but also on the quiet in a glassworks in which case they would have no opportunity to change colours.
It is possible that colours used in the fakes can be recognised by a glassworker and that could help to locate the source.
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Hi, They are most probably made with Kugler colour rods or similar. A vast choice of colours available.
WHAT ARE KUGLER COLORS .
Concentrated coloured glasses mainly supplied in the form of rods, powders and various sizes of granule.
Over 160 different opaque and transparent colours with new colours continuing to be developed.
Used by lead crystal glass and non-lead crystal glass studios, artists and teaching colleges.
The colours are overlayed at 800oC approx. on quality glass to create whatever your imagination and skill can achieve.
Regards. Patrick.
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You should note that the seller of the "fake Whitefriars" has included the following text in his/her auction:
"On 16-May-07 at 09:51:05 BST, seller added the following information:
Pleas note that I have now been told that Whitefriars never did this in this shade of blue."
As an eBay seller but not a glass pro, I understand how this seller may have come across this vase and researched it on eBay to find similar items named as being by "Whitefriars". This is probably why this seller assumed that vase was also Whitefriars. At least they corrected the auction listing (to a minor extent).
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Very commendable.....it takes some guts to do that and shows a responsible attitude. I imagine it will still sell well though. Emmi
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I had a long chat with Jon Andersson, whom I've known for years, this morning, about all sorts of things, including this thread. :) He has no idea where these vases are coming from, but he does think that there was probably more than one bricklayer mould. Eddie King also thinks there were two. Jon remains fascinated by the technical aspects of the vase and says that they are surprisingly difficult to blow. The few that he has made are all signed clearly, as Max stated. I mentioned to him that with some of the Whitefriars Day pieces, I signed on the piece itself rather than on the base, in a position where it would not be easy to remove the signature. He thought this was a good idea and was very receptive to the idea of signing his bricklayers on the underside of the overhang of the brick and may well do this in future, since he wishes to avoid the possibility of someone grinding out his signature. As he points out, an experienced collector should be able to see where a piece has been "doctored" but a novice could be misled. He also had some comments on the inaccuracy of screen colours with poor quality images on ebay!
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Somebody with original should get hold of some of the fakes and do a crease by creas analysis, there are bound to be a lot of pointers if done in a new mould. If the original moulds were made from the same master they would be virtually identical.
Never got an answer to my earlier question: When did the name change from 1967 advertised "Three Cubes"?
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Perhaps one of the buyers is already the owner of an original? I haven't read this thread thoroughly so this might have already been answered elsewhere, but I assume moulds could be made easily from an original bricklayer vase? I assume this is what you are referring to Frank?
I read somewhere that 'Drunken Bricklayer' was a name adopted by workers and it stuck. Wasn't this also the case with other WF glassware?
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Moulds from a vase would be less defined, not sharper as mentioned above.
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but he does think that there was probably more than one bricklayer mould. Eddie King also thinks there were two.
Just heard from Eddie, who checked with his brother John who is certain that in fact there was only one mould.This would be the one that belongs to Jon Andersson.
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Query on this.
Patrick Hogan is normally very aware of production levels.
So, how many DBs supposedly passed through this mould, in how many colours, and over what period of time?
This is a technically difficult mould? Y/N?
The answers to those questions may reveal whether moulds were replaced, etc, whether it is possible even knackered moulds continued to be used during any transitional period (ie breaking in a new mould), and if there were more than one used at a particular moment.
Just an observation....
Regards,
Marcus
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Some very pertinent points, Marcus. However, it doesn't explain the sudden inrush of these vases in non-production colours.
Unless someone had a secret stash that they are flogging off ;D