Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: eglass on June 21, 2007, 08:27:14 PM
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Hello!
I sure could use some help with this piece, it's way out of my realm.
We just bought a few pieces from a lady in her 80's who is terminally ill. She was given this bowl when she was a little girl, by her grandmother - who had lived in Germany and bought this there. I'm guessing late 1800's, early 1900's.
Anyway, the bowl is cut glass with red and blue staining - not cut to clear, this is actually painted details on the cut side of the glass. There are 4 medallions, each with a different little engraved cupid. The bowl is formed to fit into a silver(?) base, which is marked NOACK, and has a little stamp that looks to me like castles.
I am really at a loss with this piece, and was hoping someone here could point me in the right direction.
Thanks for your help,
Kelli
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7577
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7578
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7580
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7584
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7583
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7579
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Just wanted to add - according to the 925-silver website, the mark shows that the base was made in Hamburg, Germany, somewhere from the early to late 18th century, and that the NOACK mark was "Johann Friedrich August Noack (Master 1816)". Maybe that would help with pinning down a glassmaker from that time?
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Hi Kelli,
That may not make things that much easier. For much of the eighteenth century to date, Hamburg has been the last port in Europe before Bohemian, Silesian and German glass, transported on the Labe/Elbe river, was exported on, throughout the world.
What it does do is give a rough time frame, probably from @1810-1870.
Possible Bohemian candidates might be Harrachov and Egerman, and certainly the style of cutting staining would be consistent for both glassworks @ 1830.
Very nice quality item.
Regards,
Marcus
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Marcus, a million thanks!
I'm not familiar enough with glassmakers in that area to know who was even around during that time frame. This may be a piece that won't be able to be "pinned" to one particular maker, but it really helps to have a couple of names as possibles. I will research Egermann and Harrachov further and learn as much as I can. :)
I've never seen a piece like this one, totally over my head, lol.
THANKS!
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Hi Kelli,
I feel that you should have these images looked at by one of the Czech museums. There is a possibility, based on an image that I have found this morning,that this item may be by a company called I. Palme, which operated in the Kamenicky Senov region. Again time period is 1835-40, with very high quality cutting and staining with red and blue.
Regards,
Marcus
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Oh, my! THANK YOU, Marcus - I will zip a file full of photos, and see if I can locate one of those museums to send them to.
Hopefully babelfish won't mangle my message too horribly when I email in Czechoslovakian, lol.
Kelli :)
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Kelli,
If you would like me to write to the curator at the Applied Arts Museum in Prague, with the links to your images here,
just say the word. It will save you trying to locate a Czech equivalent of Babelfish.
Regards,
Marcus
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Are you serious, Marcus? I would be forever in your debt!! Thank you so much! Let me know please if you need more/different/better images?
You are very kind to offer!
Kelli
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Marcus, I've added 4 photos of the individual little engraved medallions, those may help. Again - I'm speechless, and thank you so much for your offer to contact the curator.
Sincerely,
Kelli Rooney
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7671
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7670
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7669
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7668
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Hi!
Checking in again to see if we've heard anything from the lady in Prague? I know you're extremely busy on your book, Marcus...so I don't want to be a nuisance. I'll just check in once every so often. :)
I'm kind of enjoying having it around here anyway, lol. It's not like anything I've ever owned before...
Thanks again,
Kelli
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Hi Kelli,
Just waiting for a response at the moment, however, I can give you an end-date for Noack, who appears to have ceased work in 1847. Therefore the glass element falls pretty much into the time-frame suggested of @1830-1845.
The castles stamp is for the assay office in Hamburg. Can you tell me if there is a single letter stamped on the silver and if so, which letter?
Thanks and regards,
Marcus
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Good morning Marcus!
Hope this finds you well!
Yes, there is a clearly stamped letter "C" inside the portal or door in front of the towers. I will work to get a good closeup of that this evening. :) Many thanks for checking back!
Sincerely
Kelli
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Hi Kelli,
The letter C now gives us the earliest date for the silver foot, of 1829.
I believe that is the letter indicating which assay master was in charge, and thus this mark covers a period from 1829-1854.
Clearly then, we are looking at a maximum eighteen year period (1829-1847) for manufacture of the glass and stand.
Regards,
Marcus
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Marcus, you're an amazing researcher, thank you again!
Kelli
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Just wanted to say that this is fascinating, and I am waiting with you Kelli for the replies to Marcus's research (he is a star, isn't he? :clap:)
I find foreign silver marks very interesting as they are so different to the UK ones.
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Hi Lynne, Marcus and Kelli, this is a good site for silver www.silver-collector.com it's a bit like this board.
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Lynne,
:-[ :-[
I just done gone red......
M
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Thank's for that site Sue. :cheers:
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Hi Kelli,
The identification of this item is as complete as it can be, as the email I have received today from the curator of 18th-19th century glass, suggests my id is almost certainly correct as Ignaz Pallme 1829-40.
A pleasure to have been able to help.
Regards,
Marcus
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WOW, Marcus - how exciting is that? It's most certainly the oldest piece I've ever had the privilege to hold in my hands....very, very carefully....whew!
I can't thank you enough for your work on this project, it has been fascinating!
I'm always amazed when an atypical piece surfaces in such an unlikely part of the world - of all places, Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Sue, thanks for that silver site!
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Wanted to update everyone on this old thread. :)
Marcus did an incredible job identifying this piece and sharing some great background info on the probable maker. We kind of put it on the back burner for a few months, which turned into a year....funny how the really interesting pieces keep finding their way to the BACK of the display cabinet, hidden away. ;) Okay, I kind of liked having it around.
Anyway, recently we were able to find out more about the silver stand that the Pallme bowl sits on. The assayer letter "C" was incongruous with the timeframe of the rest of the piece, so there was concern that it was a marriage. Not so, as it turns out.
"Regarding Kelli's Hamburg silver & glass bowl in newsletter #56,
Tardy’s listing of the Hamburg assayer’s letters is very superficial.
The letter “C” here is from the third cycle of letters, and was that
of assayer Friedrich Christoph Greve, working 1829-1854. The maker
“NOACK” is Johann Friedrich August Noack (ca. 1788-1856), Master 1816
and retired 1847. The bowl, therefore, can be dated to the more
reasonable range of 1829-1847."
This is now consistent with Marcus' identification of the glassmaker.
:)