Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Scandinavian Glass => Topic started by: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 06:42:03 PM

Title: Jacob did it first
Post by: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 06:42:03 PM: or did he ?
You see this shape and you immediately think Per Lutken http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7662 but this has a small round silver Kastrup label with Fleur de Lis logo on it. The label is very worn so doesn't photo well but dates it to 1960 I believe. I also have in my notes that this item was shown in the 1960 Kastrup catalogue and is model 32003. I can't remember where I got that info from but being as specific as it is I think it must have been a relaible source. Ah here it is - at the bottom I've got ref: www.zeitgeist-i.com. So must have been designed prior to 1960 as a catalog takes some months to produce and they would have needed it early in the year if not several months prior to that.

I don't actually know when the PL beaked vases date to. I suppose they could be 50's or even 40's as Lutken joined Holmegaard in 1942 and became the company's art director in 1946. Perhaps these ones were the Lutken precursor: http://www.freeformsusa.com/glass/danish/3birdl.jpg the earliest of which is dated 1957. But these are a different shape.

I used to see plenty on Ebay the same shape as mine always attributed to PL. They always went beyond my budget so I stopped looking after a while. I can't remember if they were signed or not. This one isn't. Is that because Kastrup didn't sign at all ? Perhaps all those were actually Kastrup ? and because of the lack of signature that's why Jacob was never attributed and still largely unrecognised ? Ed.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Della on June 26, 2007, 06:49:41 PM: Hi Ed,
I actually have a vase similar to yours, only in green and without the bubbles.
According to Andy McConnell's book, Millers 20th Century Glass, the Naebvase (sorry Nic, I don't have a ae fixed onto each other on my keyboard) aka Duckling or Beak vases were designed from 1951 and produce from 1952-76. My green vase and your blue with bubbles are actually pictured in the book mentioned, on page 147.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 26, 2007, 07:31:25 PM: That's another mistake in McConnell - the vases shown in that colourful grouping on pg. 147 are all actually by Kastrup, dating 1960-65. The designer of them seems to have been forgotten - I've never seen them reliably sourced to JE Bang, or anyone else.

According to his work-book, Lütken first started experimenting with the Næbvase form in July '49, and kept playing with the form until July '51, when it settled into the shape that was put into mass-production. Like so:

Næbvase (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/pinkspoons/?action=view&current=beak.jpg)

Although the Kastrup vases have a different shape when put next to the Holmegaard production Næbvaser, they do correspond to shapes also in Lütken's work-books. There are also Kastrup vases with coloured patterns within the glass, this too seems to have been a Lütken design from 1954 (as a limited edition, or maybe as an exhibition piece) where there's a standard shape Næbvase in clear glass with a spiral of violet colour running around the body.

So it seems that the Kastrup vases are an adaptation of Lütken's designs. The Holmegaard ones were only mass-produced in Akvablå, Smoke and light green, and were always fully signed (unless they're a production second). The Kastrup ones are generally colourful, and always unsigned.

I don't think that Kastrup ever signed their glass - I've not seen any, certainly.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 08:12:01 PM: Hi Della Thanks for responding.
without the bubbles >
Yep those are the ones I used to see on Ebay attributed to PL. So who does McConnel attribute them to ? PL ? and which company ? Holmegaard or Kastrup ? The merger didn't happen until 1965. I must get that book.

Is yours signed ? How tall is it ? Mine is dead on 13". A co-incidence as they would have been made by cm and I guess they vary a bit in height (for the same size) as I assume they are swung.

Ducking> I thought that name applied only to the angled ones shown in the freeformsusa.com link but maybe it applies to all of them ? In which case he might be talking about that shape as the early ones rather than our straight-up shape.

Another example
Here we go again. Attributed to PL despite having a Kastrup label. http://www.trocadero.com/accents/items/661899/en1store.html
My label is the same as this only silver. (see pic 3) This label is in very good condition and appears to be gold. Maybe the gold rubbed off mine. I suppose that selllers aren't generally concerned about the distinction between Holmegaard and Kastrup but if they are going to attribute to PL then they should be. Shouldn't they ? Or am I going crazy ?
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Della on June 26, 2007, 08:22:07 PM: Hi Ed,
Mine is 9 1/4" tall and unsigned. In the book, they are attributed to Per Lutken, they are described as mould-blown and swung, but Nic is the guy who really knows his stuff when it comes to Holmegaard. Hopefully he will transfer all the information that he has on zeitgeist-i, and in his grey cells, into a book in the very near future.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 26, 2007, 08:34:02 PM: Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 08:12:01 PM
Hi Della Thanks for responding.
without the bubbles >
Yep those are the ones I used to see on Ebay attributed to PL. So who does McConnel attribute them to ? PL ? and which company ? Holmegaard or Kastrup ?

McConnell wrongly attributes them to Lütken for Holmegaard, dating them between 1952-76 (which is the production period of the actual Holmegaard Næbvaser).

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 08:12:01 PM
Ducking> I thought that name applied only to the angled ones shown in the freeformsusa.com link but maybe it applies to all of them ? In which case he might be talking about that shape as the early ones rather than our straight-up shape.

I think 'Duckling' is the English name that Holmegaard gave to the range, and should probably only apply to Holmegaard vases. And Næbvase, the name of the range in Danish, is also the general name for this shape of vase - 'næbvase' translates as 'beak vase', which is the name given to the very similar Baxter design for Whitefriars c.1960 - and can be applied to all similar vases from all factories (if you're Danish ;D)

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 08:12:01 PM
This label is in very good condition and appears to be gold. Maybe the gold rubbed off mine. I suppose that selllers aren't generally concerned about the distinction between Holmegaard and Kastrup but if they are going to attribute to PL then they should be. Shouldn't they ? Or am I going crazy ?

Kastrup had both gold and silver labels (they're both handily illustrated on my reference website ;)). I think a lot of sellers will just call their glass whatever they think will sell it fastest, sadly. There's an online dealer who I also know in the real world, and he labels ALL of his cased Holmegaard as 'Carnaby', even though he knows it isn't (i.e. if it's from the 'Palet' kitchenware range) - and his excuse is that 'Carnaby' sells and 'Palet' doesn't. Most of the hits on my shop site that I receive from search engines are because someone typed in 'Per Lutken' or 'Carnaby glass', so it's quite true.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 26, 2007, 08:38:07 PM: Quote from: Deltab on June 26, 2007, 08:22:07 PM
Hopefully he will transfer all the information that he has on zeitgeist-i, and in his grey cells, into a book in the very near future.

It's all slowly being transfered to Holmegaard Resource (which may, eventually, fingers crossed, make it to print format). It's just such a slow process, photographing, measuring, researching, cross-referencing, etc... I want to get everything just so, so that I don't get a smart-alec like myself emailing me to tell me what a lousy job I've done. ;D
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 10:07:03 PM: Thanks Nic. That answers many of my questions. But I still think it's strange that a company should produce items essentialy designed by the design director of another. Ok you say an "adaptation" but doesnt sound like much adaptation was needed. If that were the States or even UK, law suits would be flying !!

Maybe these were so popular that Holmegaard contracted Kastrup to make some of the models. But in that case you would expect them to be marketed as Holmegaard.

So sounds like your solution, protem, is to say Kastrup, which we know to be true and "designer unknown" which sounds to me now, like it's unfair to PL. Anyway thanks for the fascinating insights into PLs design notebooks.

PS I thought I read somewhere that JE Bang was Kastrups only designer after a certain date - but I may have got that wrong.

I must have accessed your website a few months ago now. Is there any difference in the dates used between the gold and silver labels ?

Akvablå = aqua blue ? Would you describe mine as that ? I think I would.
Thanks again this has been very enlightening. Ed.
Title: Re: Jacob did it first
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 26, 2007, 11:12:59 PM: I think adaptation is a fair enough word as, whilst essentially similar in concept, the Kastrup ones do vary in shape from the Holmegaard production model, and also in decoration. If anything, the Kastrup ones are much more complex in execution and aesthetics. Also there were probably other designers at other factories producing very similar designs, and possibly pre-dating the Lütken designs. I think there are some basic forms that are used unchecked by more than one glassworks - optic-ribbed tumbler vases, cylinder vases, baluster vases, etc... The beaked vase seems to be one of them (made by Holmegaard, Kastrup and Whitefriars - and probably others).

I've never heard of any instance of Holmegaard outsourcing to Kastrup - they were in direct competition. Although, in principle, it could be possible as Kastrup did comprise of three individual glassworks before the merger.

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 10:07:03 PM
So sounds like your solution, protem, is to say Kastrup, which we know to be true and "designer unknown" which sounds to me now, like it's unfair to PL.

It's really the only way that I can tackle it without any firm evidence of the design's origins. Plus, personally, I get a little irked when writers of books say that one design copies another because they're approximately similar when they, the writer, have no evidence that the two designs weren't conceived independently, or that both weren't inspired by earlier forms. It's making a very definite judgement without any facts. Plus design is a very fluid and evolving process and everyone is standing on the shoulders of those who came before. Something should only be called a copy if it's identical, I think. But that's just my own view on it.

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 10:07:03 PM
PS I thought I read somewhere that JE Bang was Kastrups only designer after a certain date - but I may have got that wrong.

There were other designers at Kastrup during Bang's tenure (1957-65). Bent Severin, Grethe Meyer, Ibi Trier Mørch, Henning Koppel, Tove and Edvard Kindt-Larsen, and Johannes Hammerborg - to name but a few.

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 10:07:03 PM
Is there any difference in the dates used between the gold and silver labels ?

As far as I can tell they were both used around c.1960 - I've had such a hard time trying to pin down dates to Kastrup labels, as they all seem to have been used in over-lapping time periods without ryhme nor reason. It's a nightmare. c.1960 is probably as good as it gets.

Quote from: Hotglass on June 26, 2007, 10:07:03 PM
Akvablå = aqua blue ? Would you describe mine as that ? I think I would.

Akvablå as a proper noun is specific to Holmegaard glass, as it's a colourway name, much like Meadow Green or Cinamon is for Whitefriars. But aqua-blue would be a fair description of the colour of your Kastrup vase.