Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: David E on August 15, 2007, 12:23:36 PM
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I've posted this request on behalf of Charlotte Stead, Assistant Curator of Maritime History, National Museums Liverpool: all photos are © National Museums Liverpool
These spectacular ashtrays were first invested on the Queen Mary liner, so can be dated reliably to around 1934-39. The quality looks superb, as does the cutting. But can anyone hazard a guess on the maker? Stourbridge?
:o click to zoom :o
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10058/thumb_qm-1.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8159)
Top & Base views:
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Hi David,
I would suggest that Charlotte may want to have a look at the Cunard White Star Lines Archives, which are held by the Harold Cohen Library, in Liverpool.
They are very detailed and there may well be information regarding these ashtrays still in the archives.
As to the date, one may need to be cautious. They could, as you say, date to the five years before the ship was converted to serve as a troopship in the Far East, but could just as easily date to a post-war refit. The QM, was launched in 1934, but fitting-out took the best part of two years, only making her maiden voyage in 1936. If these are from that original period, then design and supply of the ashtrays is a three year period from 1934 -1936. It is unlikely that they were ordered before that, as the ship very nearly remained uncompleted, but for goverment intervention.
Regards,
Marcus
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Thanks Marcus, most helpful, as always.
I think Charlotte intimated that these did date from before 1939. I have suggested she follow this thread, so hopefully she will pick up on this.
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Hi David, just to make one futher point, these are likely to be of UK manufacture, for the first or second class passengers.
The massive subsidy given to Cunard to complete this ship along with the Queen Elizabeth, would have made out-sourcing extremely unlikely.
Regards,
Marcus
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Thanks Marcus, I think a Stourbridge maker is then more likely.
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Hi David,
The major problem may be that the ashtrays are unlikely to carry a makers mark, as that would interfere with the shipping companies emblem or logo. What I would suggest is that there are several potential makers, and interestingly probably two candidates as designers, Keith Murray, and R.Y Goodden. Murray is known to have designed glassware for the Orient Lines "Orion" of 1935, a ground-breaking example of modern interior design for the maritime environment, designed by Colin Skelton Anderson (later knighted) and his highly-talented chief designer, the New Zealand architect Brian O'Rorke.
If designed by Murray, and I have enquiries out, then Stevens and Williams is one possible manufacturer.
Regards,
Marcus
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I appreciate the line of thought. Not sure about Goodden, but I will ask for one of the family to look in. One of his ashtray designs, as you know, is already identified as being produced by Chance.
Anyway, there's web site devoted to Murray's work if anyone is interested:
http://www.keithmurray.co.uk
I've mailed this site to see if this helps.
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David — See the topic on John Stonier & Co., recently updated, here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6156.0.html).
Stoniers were certainly long-established principal wholesalers to the shipping lines, and, had not the previous discussion taken place, the most obvious source to me for the Queen Mary ashtrays.
It is fairly easy for Charlotte to check. All she needs is The Complete Factory Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons, privately published in three volumes by Mervyn Gulliver. I think Liverpool Museums could easily justify the expense of a set because of the Stonier connection. If she is interested, please ask her to email me — I will be happy to forward her request for details to Mervyn.
Why the apparent and mysterious reluctance of British museum staff to post queries and contributions on the GMB? We are not that intimidating, are we?
Bernard C. 8)
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Many thanks, Bernard. As always an interesting contribution - my internal filing cabinet had overlooked this topic 8)
Why the apparent and mysterious reluctance of British museum staff to post queries and contributions on the GMB? We are not that indimidating, are we?
Possibly lack of awareness? After all, Charlotte is not an expert on glass but Maritime Affairs, and the ashtray is a teensy-weensy part of the whole Queen Mary archives ;)
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Thank you for the Stonier contribution, Bernard. Clearly if the ash-trays, with or without marks, appear in the Stuart catalogues, then all can be squared away very quickly. Part of my reasoning with these being specific to the ship, rather than a generic, off the shelf item, was that the Queen Mary was the first civilian liner to have carried the name of a sovereign or his spouse, previously a privilege retained for vessels of the Royal Navy. That, combined with a realisation that the vessels could serve as shop-windows for the best of British manufacturing and design of the period, was arguably a major shift from the previously followed international liner decorative style, often known as "Hamburg-Amerika", but obviously not exclusive to vessels of that line.
Regards,
Marcus
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Marcus — Special commissions sourced from Stonier are likely to have appeared in the Stuart factory pattern books as well, going on what I have seen of other Stourbridge pattern books.
Just broadening the possibilities.
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi Bernard,
Stonier appear, according to Companies House, to have become plain Stonier and Co Ltd, in 1911, and appear to have existed, in one form or another until 1997, when the company underwent a name change to Stuart Crystal Marketing Ltd, now a dormant company. However, the registered office is given as Barlaston nr Stoke on Trent, Staffs, so possibly more info on Stoniers may be to be found at Wedgwoods?
Regards,
Marcus
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Marcus — Useful link, and unexpected but not surprising. It's a very small world.
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi David, just though i would let you know that Stuart Crystal provided over 22,000 pieces of crystal for the Queen Mary if that's any use.
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Sue — Thanks for that — brilliant piece of detective work.
I have just found a statement to the same effect in Brian Hawley's Luxury Liner Row website www.luxurylinerrow.com at a page entitled On-Line Exhibit (http://www.luxurylinerrow.com/Page%20On-line%20Exhibit.html). Is this where your information came from?
Note the distinctive pattern cut into the tableware. I can't recall seeing this before. So it probably was an exclusive design for the Queen Mary. Unfortunately the ashtray in question is quite a different pattern, but it is quite possible that tableware, giftware, and fittings had quite distinctive designs, all by Stonier / Stuart.
IMPORTANT — Please respect Brian Hawley's copyright on his website text and images. Abuse of this could result in this useful link having to be deleted from this topic, to all our loss.
As it is a sales site, I would prefer to link to his home page with instructions on how to navigate to the required page, but have not found out how to do this. If anyone can work out how this is done, please let me know, and I will redraft this reply and ask a moderator to make the change.
Bernard C. 8)
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Hello Bernard, yes it was Brian Hawleys site where i got the information, there is a contact at the bottom of his page and i wonder if he may be able to help, if that wont work i may have another contact address for him, what do you think?.
Comming from Liverpool , i would dearly like to help.
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Sue — I've already emailed Brian Hawley with a request for navigation instructions from his home page. If he replies, then I will make the change. Your desire to help is much appreciated.
Bernard C. 8)
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Thanks Sue - wonderful work! :clap:
I also notice from this same site:
Glassware from the period of the Queens is difficult to obtain because there is no Cunard logo etched into it as on earlier pieces.
Marcus did point out to me that items intended for 1st class were probably quite different in quality to those items in 2nd and lower classes, which may explain why the ones featured are different. Also a lot less common as well.
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For a little extra snippet, Cottle reports ("Sowerby: Gateshead Glass" page 43):
"It was only natural, therefore, that when the largest liner afloat - the Queen Mary - was being furnished, Sowerby's supplied a wide range of domestic wares."
Glen
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Thanks Glen, that's most interesting! BTW, the reason I got involved with this is because some old chap in his eighties, a retired chemist, used to live very close to the factory and he believed Chance made ashtrays for the QM, hence the reason for me originally posing the question to Charlotte.
However, I haven't been able to find evidence of this: the Goodden designed ones certainly fit into this period, but thats as far as it went.
Funny how these innocent remarks spark off a really convoluted, but highly interesting thread of research! :D
Edit: just heard from Marcus - he is having problems with his shiny-new ADSL connection... :-\
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Hi,
I am new to the forum but am interested in "Bernard C"'s remark re:
"The Complete Factory Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons, privately published in three volumes by Mervyn Gulliver...... I will be happy to forward her request for details to Mervyn."
Would it be possible to have details of these volumes as I am interested in glass made by Stuarts up to 1934 and maybe up to the mid 1950's
Many thanks
Ray
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Hi and welcome Ray (shouldn't that be 'Glassman'? ;D)
Stuart does feature throughout this forum quite often - recently two glasses (independant of each other) appeared with the 'S' motif - if you do a search you will come across various topics.
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Hi David,
nice one - I like that. Actually I am a metallurgist by profession, and an "inspector" in the steel industry.
My collecting habits centre on the Titanic and White Star Line, in particular tableware - china silver and glass.
I don't know much about any of the subjects per se, only in relation to the White Star Line.
To this end I was interested in Bernard C's remark on "The Complete Factory Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons, privately published in three volumes by Mervyn Gulliver.
Wondering if they would be of any help to me in identifying the patterns used on board the WSL ships.
A friend of mine was allowed many years ago to photocopy the entire Stuart patternbook but he guards it jealously and will not let it out of his sight!
Cheers
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... My collecting habits centre on the Titanic and White Star Line, in particular tableware - china silver and glass.
I don't know much about any of the subjects per se, only in relation to the White Star Line.
To this end I was interested in Bernard C's remark on "The Complete Factory Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons, privately published in three volumes by Mervyn Gulliver". ...
Ray — Send me a note by email and I would be happy to forward it to Mervyn. Alternatively see me at the Cambridge fair on Sunday — at a quiet time, please.
All the examples of marked White Star glass I have had through my hands or seen in the Red House display are fairly conventional turn-of-the-century patterns of wines, sherries and the like. I've never seen the logo on anything else, notably beer glasses and cans, and anything obviously sold on board as souvenir- or gift-ware. Nor have I seen the logo on any 1930s style designs.
Bernard C. 8)
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Have changed it, now just have to wait and see. Hope that everyone is happy with me now.
thanks for your help Ray.
Carol
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You are very welcome Carol.
I hope you do well with the glasses.
Cheers
R
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Quite by chance yesterday i was talking to a lady in the village about collecting and she said her father was a steward on the Queen Mary!!!
She has cocktail glasses and first edition menu's and other items from the ship, she also recall's stories her father told her, i am going to see her over the weekend, if anyone else is interested and want's to ask a question let me know before Sunday.
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Would be nice to see photos - take a camera Sue?
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OK David will do.
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Hi there Sue
Perhaps you could ask her if she knew about things they sold on board like glasses etc. And how they may have been marked.Or anything else you can think of connected with my query.
Thank you in advance, I expect it will be very intersting whatever you find out.
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OK Carol, i will take a note book, she is very sweet if a bit dotty.
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Hi sorry it has taken so long to get back to this but here goe's
Edward "Ted" Girling served aboard the Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth, whiles on the Queen Elizabeth he sailed to New York carrying troops and was awarded a medal by the M.S Y.M.C.A for organizing a foorball match that's all the history i have from his time on the QE, but i did only talk to annie, and not Ted's son Roger.
Roger has many momento's of Ted's time on the queen Mary, including glass, menues, stationary, photo's, painting's, and books.
In one book i found a referance as to what was on board pertaining to glass and china, i could not post photo's as i was naot sure as to copy right? the book stated :-
Crystal tableware manufactured for the Queen Mary by Stuart and Son's of Stourbridge, in all 22,000 pieces of table glass on board.
China:-
Jackson and Gosling Ltd of Stoke On Trent, 30.000 pieces
Ted was certainly on the QM in 1936 as one of the photo's is dated.
He started at Cunard as a steward, then waiter, and became something called a ship's Tiger, i have never heard the expression.
All of Ted's history and photo's are unpublished, Roger would love to hear from anyone who is interested about his father's time with Cunard.
Edited to say, i asked Annie if she was sure these glasses came from the Queen Mary and she said she was certain?
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More photo's.
If you would like to contact Roger and Annie, please email me for details, roger is very excited about this.
Iam sorry about the quality of the phot's, but most of them are on the wall under glass, but they have many more loose one's.
I hope this help's some one.
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Conicidences can happen but often there is more to them...
Letter to pottery Gazette August, 1935
from a S. Stuart, Director. Stonier & Co., Ltd., 78, Lord-st., Liverpool.