Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Resolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: Quackers on November 02, 2007, 09:40:19 PM
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Sorry - just had to show this one off -
Fenton, Grape & Cable carnival glass plate with three spatula feet in marigold. With a rather nice irridescence. ;D.
Tim
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LOL never, there is always something else that "catches your eye". I started off glass collecting after getting interested in Whitefriars and before you know it, I now have iittala, Riihimaki, Holmegaard, Orrefors, Mdina, Murano, Bohemia, Dartington, Wedgwood and 1 piece of Liskeard.....and my A D Copiers Leerdam dish, which if it hadn't been for the fountain of knowledge here would have gone to the charity shop !!
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Yeah I just keep adding - I really have run out of shelf space though 8). Went out again today, really pleased to find this one...
Four flowers variant bowl in green - got to go to the Thistlewood's site to read up on it now!
Tim
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Ooh, Tim, they're both rather nice. :clap:
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I'm rather scared of buying Carnival glass because I just know so little about it - it's such a big complicated area and it's seriously out of my comfort zone. I did buy one bowl recently that Glen kindly IDd for me so I know I'd look at those two if I saw them Tim.
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Hi Tim.......maybe it's time to stop "going out" then there'll be nothing to catch your eye! ;D ;D Emmi
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This should please you then Tim - old listing so no pictures available, and green is usually more expensive than amethyst/purple...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270161491497
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Cathy and Lynne - Yes, very pleased with those. The Grape & Cable was part of a mixed lot at our local auction (estimate £10-15 for four pieces!) and the Four Flowers came from the boot fair at boot fair price ;D. They are both in perfect condition as well 8).
Pip - that's exactly how I feel about a lot of other glass.... like the things I've listed for ID over the weekend!
Emmi - don't be daft, you must know that it is impossible not to go out (if you physically can, that is) and look for glass. You just never know when you're going to stumble on something really nice - like a Sky Blue knobbly ;D.
Tim
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Nice pieces Tim. I have a penchant for the Four Flowers Variant. It is an enigma...and I love a mystery!
Just a brief note to clarify a point that is often misunderstood. The eBay auction that Lynne mentioned states it is for a Dugan Four Flowers Variant bowl. That's a contradiction in terms. Dugan made the Four Flowers pattern. It was copied by the Swedes and Finns, who made a pattern that is identical, but usually different in colour to that produced by Dugan. The Scandinavian/Nordic examples are very seldom seen.
Then there is the Four Flowers Variant - which is what Tim has. The maker is not confirmed, but I suspect it was made in Europe (possible England). I do not have proof absolute. I've spent considerable time researching this pattern, and you can read a few bits below.
Article based on the presentation and display we did at the Carnival Glass Socitey (UK) in 2005
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FFV.html
Article where I try (probably in vain) to dispel a myth or two
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/MythFFV.html
Old article on wwwcga's website where I wrote about a survey I did into "finds" of the Four Flowers Variant.
http://www.carnivalglass.org/education/fourflower/index.asp
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Yes, Tim, I am daft, in fact.........just got to rush.....have a feeling that my local Charity shop has got just the piece I am looking for............BYE eeeeeee Emmi
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Nice pieces Tim. I have a penchant for the Four Flowers Variant. It is an enigma...and I love a mystery!
Just a brief note to clarify a point that is often misunderstood. The eBay auction that Lynne mentioned states it is for a Dugan Four Flowers Variant bowl. That's a contradiction in terms. Dugan made the Four Flowers pattern. It was copied by the Swedes and Finns, who made a pattern that is identical, but usually different in colour to that produced by Dugan. The Scandinavian/Nordic examples are very seldom seen.
Then there is the Four Flowers Variant - which is what Tim has. The maker is not confirmed, but I suspect it was made in Europe (possible England). I do not have proof absolute. I've spent considerable time researching this pattern, and you can read a few bits below.
Article based on the presentation and display we did at the Carnival Glass Socitey (UK) in 2005
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FFV.html
Article where I try (probably in vain) to dispel a myth or two
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/MythFFV.html
Old article on wwwcga's website where I wrote about a survey I did into "finds" of the Four Flowers Variant.
http://www.carnivalglass.org/education/fourflower/index.asp
Thanks Glen - with no pic, I had to work on just the words, and didn't realise that it was ambiguous... Very interesting articles as ever!
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Hi Lynne - it was a good auction link that you gave, as it illustrated the point perfectly. The ambiguity seems entrenched within Carnival collecting, and it is an uphill battle to get the message out. I often read eBay auctions that have the whole thing muddled up (e.g. Four Flowers Variant by Eda Glasbruks....and I want to shout "NOOOOOOOOOO"). :o
EDITED TO ADD:
Here's another typical mix-up. It shows a Sunflower & Diamond vase. The one in this auction is a Brockwitz example in the fairly common size and colour. It is not the rare Eda version (which is what the seller thinks).
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290178271044
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I picked up this little Pineapple pattern creamer, i'm well pleased ;D
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Hi Lynne - it was a good auction link that you gave, as it illustrated the point perfectly. The ambiguity seems entrenched within Carnival collecting, and it is an uphill battle to get the message out. I often read eBay auctions that have the whole thing muddled up (e.g. Four Flowers Variant by Eda Glasbruks....and I want to shout "NOOOOOOOOOO"). :o
EDITED TO ADD:
Here's another typical mix-up. It shows a Sunflower & Diamond vase. The one in this auction is a Brockwitz example in the fairly common size and colour. It is not the rare Eda version (which is what the seller thinks).
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290178271044
And here's another one that seems to have various misunderstandings in it based on what you have said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260178164416
Dugan Variant.. no, not Dugan.
David Doty's site said it was made FOR DUGAN in Europe. No he didn't ... he said it was different to the Dugan and was made in Europe...
Green is rare.... is it? Where?
I find sad that someone has bothered to do the research, and then can't get it right from the research site...?
and ohmigod.... please please please don't anyone copy the Caps Style of auction listing....
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Thanks Glen - I knew it was complicated, but at least I did remember that it wasn't Dugan ;). What I find strange is that these two pieces jumped into my car in the same week when I have gone months without finding any nice Carnival locally at all :-\. At the same carboot a couple of months ago there was a trader with a near pair of blue Northwood Treetrunk vases (about 10") with all manner of chips, scratches etc, hardly any irridizing left on them - and he wanted £100 for them :o. At a boot fair!
Emmi, did you find that must have then???
Lynne - that last one you found does worry me, apart from the wrong attribution, that awful block CAPS and the disclaimer about not being experts - they say it has a "GREAT IRRIDIZED FINISH WITH MINOR AGE CRAZING ON THE BACK ONLY". Okay I don't know that much about Carnival (only got 150 or so pieces 8)) but I don't think that it crazes with age?! So what is wrong with it? All I can see on the photos are a few manufacturing lines (straw marks)....
Tim
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:cry: :cry: Nope, nothing:nada : zilch:.....it's been a thin week here. Emmi
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:cry: :cry: Nope, nothing:nada : zilch:.....it's been a thin week here. Emmi
Better luck next week :). Try a trip up here, for once Norfolk/Suffolk seems to be providing some nice finds >:D. Perhaps it is making up for me missing out on Cambridge Glass Fair this autumn (though my dad appears to have bought half the W/F that was there :-X.).
Tim
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Tim, did you happen to get to the 20th Century Design sale at Gazes at the weekend? I couldn't get up and there looked to be some lovely things.... :cry:
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Tim, did you happen to get to the 20th Century Design sale at Gazes at the weekend? I couldn't get up and there looked to be some lovely things.... :cry:
Erm...er...Yes! That is where some of these came from ::). Well I am only 5 miles away... The Whitefriars was going for silly money, some examples;
Kingfisher TV vase £200
Kingfisher hooped vase £240
and a pair of damaged (one quite badly) Cenedese "Aquarium" bookends went for £160 :o. But I got the Dartington that I really wanted (and finished up with the Sowerby posy bowl, Sklo Union vase, another unidentified which I haven't got round to posting yet and this green swirly vase by Ourglass (helpfully clearly signed ;)) as well.
Tim
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Tim - you're right that Carnival doesn't "craze" with age. The marks on the exterior of that Four Flowers Vt bowl are actually rather typical for the pattern. They are features of the pressed glass manufacturing process. They're not "straw" (shear) marks though (there is only one of those on a piece and it would be on the interior).
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They're not "straw" (shear) marks though (there is only one of those on a piece and it would be on the interior).
Glen, thanks for reminding me about that - I see so many of those marks described as "straw marks" that the term has rather stuck itself into my mind. At least I didn't say that they were anything to do with the hot glass being rested on a bed of straw to cool ::). Is there an acceptable name for those ripple-like marks within the glass to distinguish them from the wiggly surface marks and/or straight mould lines?
Sorry but the more I think about it the more questions come to mind - why would a shear mark only be on the inside? As I understand it they are caused by the cold metal tool touching the hot glass metal (or is that another myth) so shouldn't that appear on both sides of the glass?
Thanks for keeping me on my toes ;D.
Tim
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Tim - great questions! I will answer them as best I can, but I am sure that someone like Adam Dodds can give us more information too. I must say, upfront, that most of what I have learned about the pressed glass manufacturing process - and especially the features of that process as exhibited on the glass - are things that I have learned from Howard Seufer (ex-Fenton) and also from Adam D.
The shear mark is (as I understand it) almost always on the upper surface (in contact with the plunger). It occurs at the point where the gob of hot glass is cut (the tail end of the gob) and thus falls down into the mould. I suppose the glass maker could attempt to flip the gob to the outside, but I imagine that would be physically tricky. I do know that a glass maker might attempt to toss the tail of the glass to the edge of the gob so that it will re-heat. But mostly, on older pressed glass, the mark may sometimes be seen on the upper surface. Sometimes it is covered by a busy moulded pattern, but on those items where there are large areas of plain glass, it can usually be easily spotted (the Carnival piece "Peter Rabbit" often shows a shear mark in the centre).
Later, the shears had a rounded end to one handle, so that it could be used to rub out the mark. But that wasn't used during the Classic Carnival era.
I believe the marks on the exterior (where the piece is in contact with the mould) are caused by a temperature differential between the hot glass and the metal mould. If the mould is cooler than the hot glass, then settle waves may occur as the hot glass skids along the mould surface. These are wavy lines that curve around the outside of the item. As the glass then gets pressed and starts to move, settle waves sometimes form.
If the mould is too hot, the slightly cooler glass can stick to the mould and make lines that can look a bit like fine cracks. I suspect this is what we are seeing on the Four Flowers Vts. They often feature on those items.
One more mark on the exterior is called a lap mark. I'll quote Howard...it's like a "rolled edge line that looks like the line your fingernail would make in an apple skin....caused by the glass gob hitting the side of the mould before being formed".
oh yes...EDITED TO ADD something I forgot - my article on the Shear Mark.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/ShearMark.html
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Thank you for that explanation, Glen!
Is there a name for the effect that looks like fine cracks on the surface of the glass?
PS - it's good to see you here again! We miss you when you're away.
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Cathy :hug:
You asked a very good question - I will get in touch with Howard Seufer and ask his opinion.
Thanks, everyone, for the fascinating discussion.
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Thanks Glen, I think I'll print that off and keep it somewhere safe! I certainly understand the shear mark location now - but I'm not sure I've ever seen it... wanders off to look at shelves full of glass 8)
If I ever manage to get to a Carnival Glass Soc meeting (they always seem to be on days I'm stuck at work) I'll bring a couple of pieces along for a consultation!
thanks again.
Tim
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I've heard back from Howard Seufer (I showed him the photo of that green Four Flowers variant on eBay). He has written out very clearly for us what he believes the marks are. I suspected the metal mould may have been hotter than the glass, but Howard has found evidence in the marks to determine that it was, in fact, cooler than the glass. He also asked Bob Hill (mould shop foreman at Fenton) for his thoughts, which I have also added in the text below.
I am indebted to Howard for his expertise and constant willingness to help.
From Howard:
These lines appear to have rounded edges. The long line through the pattern is apparently a LAP MARK. This could have been caused by the gob hitting the edge of the mould, (cooling at that point) and then dropping into the mould; or be caused by the outside layers of the gather chilling too much before entering the mould. The chilled outer surfaces lap on themselves and prevent the glass from completely filling against the side of the mould.
The other lines may have been (again) with the gatherer taking his time winding the glass and chilling the outer surfaces of the gob, while waiting for the presser to accept the glass. The lines would be similar to the flow mark in the pattern area.
Another type of line that has rounded edges and goes into the glass is a TEAR (rhymes with"pear") or a crizzle (shallow crack) that have been healed by reheating the surface. I believe this is the condition you refer to "make lines that can look a bit like fine cracks" - healed TEARS.
The photo isn't clear if the smaller lines are standing out from the surface or are down into the surface. IF they are standing out, they could have been caused by damage to the mould by the end of the presser's shears scraping the iron while cutting the glass gob. The mould iron is soft and the shears can dig into the surface.
The mould was slightly cool, less than 830 degrees F., because SETTLE WAVES can be seen in the pattern between the Lap Mark and the marie. This mould was not "too hot".
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After talking with Bob Hill, former mould shop foreman, he agreed that the smaller lines were probably LAP MARKS also. He said it looked like a piece that was made when the presser was using glass to warm up the mould and the glass was gathered just too cold. The piece was one that should have been thrown away on the shop, he said.
My eternal thanks to Howard.
Glen
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Thank you so much for taking the time to get the answers, Glen :hug: A huge thanks to Howard & Bob too. :clap: :clap: It is fabulous to read things in simple, understandable terms (especially for a plonker like me!).
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My eternal thanks to Howard.
Ours too, and our eternal thanks to you, Glen! :hug: You really are a treasure! :hiclp: :clap:
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wonderful Glen! thanks so much.
Now we just have to keep using the new terminology (well, new to eBay buyers ;D) and get them used to it!
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Glen, that is absolutely superb - thank you so much, and thank you Howard and Bob - the first-hand knowledge is invaluable :).
As Lynne says, just got to remember to use the right terms and try to persuade other to do so as well.
Tim