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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Frank on November 18, 2007, 04:54:39 PM

Title: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
Post by: Frank on November 18, 2007, 04:54:39 PM
Just working on an S & W catalogue. Some items are also offered in Waved or Venetian Waved, is there any difference between these terms?
Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
Post by: Frank on November 18, 2007, 06:07:33 PM
Here is an example, that is also twisted, another is shown without a twist. Pattern 36040C. Image courtesy the Glass-Study.
Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
Post by: Bernard C on November 19, 2007, 08:20:00 AM
Quote from: Frank
... Waved or Venetian Waved, is there any difference between these terms?

If —
  • you can find one pattern available in both styles,
  • and you are sure that the compiler knew what he was talking about,
  • and you are sure that the catalogue is not a mixture of pages, some new and some from older catalogues,

    • then they must be different.   Otherwise you will have to use your skill and judgment, but please ensure that readers know that you've done this so as not to seriously devalue the material you are presenting;  changing it from primary to secondary evidence.

    That's what I like about the Walsh pattern books reproduced in Reynolds — some helpful editor has not got stuck in and wrecked them, or selected "interesting" pages — they are unedited and complete.

    Cf Cottle p57 on Sowerby Opal, Blanc de Lait and similar colours, which I'm not sure has been fully resolved.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 19, 2007, 11:10:30 AM
    Of course the page is compiled from various models that were in current production at the point of issue - as they would be issuing more than one catalogue in a patterns lifetime. Although no certainty there as the catalogues are undated. This particular catalogue looks to have been produced in the 1910-20 period and its accompanying price list has a handstamp probably after WW1 increasing prices by 10% due to 'great advances' in value of fuel materials. It also is a slightly later styling and omits at least one of the items shown.

    My earlier catalogue c.1895 (before London showroom was destroyed by fire) includes cut, etched and intaglio only, and mostly services. Whereas this one is much more proletarian with cut, intaglio, moulded, engraved and etched individual tableware items such as novelty Whisky, jam pots etcetera.

    The presentation of the contents is by item basically in pattern number sequence, not page, visitors can choose how to view by categories. The original pagination is noted in description but not maintained - you will have to visit an archive or buy a reprint for that. My purpose is to allow comparision/viewing across catalogues and manufacturers, date, region, type of object, decoration, etcetera. More a reverse catalogue - look up your item and ID the possible makers. Categories being added as needed. This organisation is still in its infancy and will take years to complete with nearly 200 original catalogues to digitise - around 100,000 items, plus factory photographs, leaflets, adverts in journals etcetera. So far only 5% has been scanned as I am still concentrating on other documents.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 19, 2007, 01:13:19 PM
    Actually, I do not add commentary unless there is something useful to say - in which case it is added as an clear annotation listing source etc.

    Generally the questions I ask here are for my own amusement, as spending ten or more hours a day digitising can be a bit mind numbing... on the plus side it concentrates the mind on the subject matter in isolation from other thoughts and thus numerous anomalies pop-up.

    I am not sure how S&W organised their pattern numbers, did they reserve ranges for certain types of object, or by department, did services and individual items differ? The highest numbers in this catalogue are in the range 381xx but unfortunately only the price lists gives the varieties of a model. Pattern numbers did differ, in some cases, for an item and these can be widely different or consecutive, only one example illustrated for example:

    Jug 28023½ (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/164d4bc23a9e1e13ab14969f78421e32.jpg) is for Plain or Venetian Waved, and 28023 was the same but with Star bottom.

    But Richly Cut Jug 36521 (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/6943e2fd55af3761d7dd5c0fadc5fee8.jpg) was also available Plain or Venetian Waved as number 23660 - a huge difference.

    Although some of the pattern numbers in this catalogue are clearly nineteenth century. (Corning contact advised me: I looked at the description books from S&W, which we borrowed from S&W, and microfilmed.  The highest ware number in the catalog is 19718, which appears in Description Book #17, which dates to about 1893.) Obviously I will follow-up further with Corning once the digitisation is completed to get a better dating. The 'Description Books' no doubt hold the an answer to how numbers were allocated.

    Another limitation of the catalogue is that each of these jugs was available in 6 sizes from ½pint to 2 quart and the price ratio between plain and decorated was highly variable. It would probably be obvious why if photographs of each size were available. Like this one (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d71d26cbe7e02c5cb0ab8a5c1c23cdb1.jpg) 31591 Intagloid "Water Lily": ½pint 4s. 2 Quart 17/6d. As Plain or Waved : ½pint 2s. 2 Quart 6.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: David E on November 19, 2007, 03:39:35 PM
    If the jug (36040C) is Venetian waved and the jug (28023½) is Plain waved, then the difference would appear to be the twist (wrythen?) in the pattern of the former. Or am I missing something more fundamental? :-\
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 19, 2007, 04:26:29 PM
    Both of those are Venetian Waved, unfortunately none of the items described as Waved are illustrated except in the cut form that I presume to be on Plain blank.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Patricia on November 19, 2007, 06:17:30 PM
    Frank, with our hyacinth vases we had the same puzzle.
    In old French catalogues apart from all various colours, engraved, enamelled etc. vases you could also opt for à côtes or à côtes venitiennes.
    Several of us asked dealers in France what that means and from different angles we were told that à cotes is optic from the inside and à côtes venitiennes is optic from the outside.
    Does that make sense?

    Patricia 
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 19, 2007, 08:08:22 PM
    Interesting idea - I am not to sure how it would be done inside :huh: .

    p.s. You missed out on this catalogue when you dropped in, it includes some bud vases...
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 21, 2007, 10:15:43 PM
    What is particularly interesting is that it was a term used internationally, not just a S&W trade name like Intagloid.

    Italian: http://ondevenezia.com/ but my knowledge of Itaian is bad so no progress looking for it as Onda or Onde both of which give a lot of non glass hits. Ditto the French.

    Nor any progress on how you get inside optic in hand blown - presumably dip mould and then inverting the piece.

    Obviously straightforward in pressed glass as the plunger bears the pattern.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: David E on November 21, 2007, 10:33:19 PM
    I think I have a few internally optic-waved items. Must check all my Thos. Webb as I think they used this effect as well.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Sid on November 22, 2007, 12:57:34 AM
    Hello:

    To get the internal optic effect for mould blown glass, the glass blower uses two moulds.  The first, which provides the optic effect, is called a dip mould or a spot mould.  The glass gather is dipped into a dip mould that has ribs or some other vertical feature or blown into a spot mould for coin spot or other non-linear effects.  The glass is then blown in the finish mould which provides the final shape.  The optic forms on the inside due to slight differences in glass temperature in the portion of the gather that came into contact with the dip or spot mould design elements. To get a swirl effect from a vertical ribbed dip mould, the glass blower gives the gather a slight twist as he is blowing it into the finish mould.

    I am sure that there is somebody in this group who can explain it better than this and maybe even provide some photos/video of the technique.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 22, 2007, 01:30:58 AM
    That makes sense, thanks Sid. Have you heard of those terms elsewhere? - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Sid on November 23, 2007, 02:15:34 AM
    Frank:

    I have not heard these terms elsewhere for what that is worth.  This type of glass is far outside of my area of knowledge.
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 23, 2007, 09:19:10 AM
    Thanks Sid.

    Patricia, how often did you come across the French version of these terms? One or more glassworks?
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Patricia on November 23, 2007, 02:36:13 PM
    Well Frank, I'm sorry to say that my knowledge doesn't come from glass catalogues at all. Remember when we were at your place and you very kindly let us go through 5 crates of catalogues, that in the end I went home with ONE picture!
    My knowledge comes from bulb and garden catalogues where in all my searches only once was refered to the actual maker of a glass ( Stevens and Williams' from 1882 ).
    Last week in Utrecht I found a glass with the Baccarat sticker on it and about 20 (club) people jumped, it's that rare (picture available as of next week if anybody is interested).
    Back to côtes venitiennes: I have from one French bulb supplier almost the whole series of catalogues complete dating from 1872 till WWII. When I looked up all the côtes venitiennes glasses offered I noticed something funny, they offered them big time around 1883 after which it died down and the second surge was from 1923 onwards. I hope it helps your search, good luck

    Patricia
    Title: Re: Steven & Williams - Waved and Venetian Waved
    Post by: Frank on November 23, 2007, 02:55:48 PM
    Thank you, in that case we are probably back to it being S&W proprietary.