Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mrvaselineglass on December 03, 2007, 01:16:05 PM
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I just wanted to share this fun piece with the group. The wine rinser was used in both the 18th and 19th centuries in the elegant Victorian homes to rinse the wine glass between courses, as a new wine was served with each course. In doing a google search, the Mount Vernon online store (home to George Washington), offers a reproduction and explains this information. There are other google references also to wine rinsers on the internet. That search (through several pages of listings) showed me amethyst, red, clear, cobalt, a dark green, and the closest one to mine, a uranium green version with etched grape leaves and grapes and cut panels near the bottom.
Measuring across the round (not the spout area), it is 5 1/8" (13cm) and 3 1/4" tall (8cm). There are nine cut flat panels around the outside and a 27-point star on the underside, which was cut in to hide the pontil mark. It is leaded crystal and vaseline. The stem is also leaded glass, but was purchased separately.
I have seen only one other made in vaseline glass, and it was a perfect match to this one.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/rinser1.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/rinser1.jpg)
http://www.vaselineglass.org/rinser2.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/rinser2.jpg)
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Lovely Dave. So is yours an original or a repro... I lost the plot :)
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Christine: definitely an original, and I don't think any have been reproduced in vaseline glass. The reference was made to reproductions to show that original wine rinsers were used at Mt. Vernon (1770s time frame) and that they have been around a long time. Mine was made sometime after 1840s and most likely before 1920s. I use the end date of 1920's as I don't know if this is something that was made during the elegant period or not. I know it is no newer than 1920s. I don't know if it is US made, English, or Continental Europe.
regards
Dave "Mr. Vaseline Glass" Peterson
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I love the curved shape of this one... I have had several of the straight sided rinsers, with various designs of pillar cuts etc. but not one with this lovely rounded shape.
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I have this one Dave
It has 16 petal cuts (? sorry not sure what they are called really) around the body.
Honey coloured lead crystal uranium glass and a very large polished pontil mark which measures approx 2 3/4" diameter.
The bowl measures 3 1/2"high and diameter front to back is 4 1/2" at rim, with width lip to lip at rim 5 1/2".
I thought it might be Webb Richardson maybe and quite early 1800's but a complete guess as really I have no idea.
On the other hand I found an amethyst cut one that looks like the Richardson amethyst with a very large pontil mark also and thought that might date to later perhaps? I was just going on the shape of it being early 1800's really but could be totally wrong ;D
m
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I think the colour pushes it into the early 20th century; early 1800s is way to early for uranium glass (1830s at the earliest). Looks like Webb Sunshine amber but could be Walsh (or a.n. other)
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oh thanks Christine :)
I was thinking pre 1850 because of the shape really.
I've just remember your post here as well on the MW honeypot re the green aura and that early uranium glass does not have this - this rinser does have a green aura in daylight around the rim.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52256.msg296588.html#msg296588
It's not the same colour as my Walsh glasses, not as ambery yellow as they are. Much more yellow than amber.
The other amethyst one I found has similar cutting on it to the Walsh fruiting vine pattern, but the colour looks like the Richardson amethyst to me.
So perhaps Webb then or maybe Richardson also (did they do uranium glass?) and as you say a much later date.
Does Webb Sunshine amber have that green aura on it?
Looking at the few Webb Sunshine ambers mine doesn't look as browny amber as they are :-\
m
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It's not so much the early uranium that don't have the green aura, it's the ultra high lead content ("flint") glass that doesn't.
Sunshine amber does have the green aura and the amberiness seems to depend a bit on the thickness of the glass and angle of photography
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ok, thanks for that, I've never seen a Webb amber :)
Just for reference, this is where I got the possible early date from - there is a group of wine rinsers here with one of them being the odd one out and that looks the same as mine, same panel cuts, same size, second from right at the front, which were listed as early 19th century.
http://www.thecanterburyauctiongalleries.com/catalogue/57/ceramics_and_glassware?page=2
Reading their wording carefully though, only the 5 are listed as early 19th century, with an additional one, the additional one being the one that is the same as mine.
Scroll down on their site for the listing
m
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do you have any references to wine rinsers being used into the 20th century?
I can't find any information that indicates this is an item that would have been used during that period :-\
The Mount Vernon shop mentions their use during the 18th century
http://www.mountvernon.org/shop/new-shop/hand-blown-wine-rinser-and-tavern-glasses
and the JHU mentions 18th and 19th here
http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2006/25sep06/25hwood.html
and I found an interesting link on Edwardian table for wines etc but no mention of use of wine rinsers
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/waitress/service-of-wines-guide-for-edwardian-servants
Felice Mehlman says in 'The Illustrated Guide to Glass'
'During the late 17th century, large silver and ceramic bowls with scalloped rims (for holding up to six glasses) known as monteiths were produced in England and elsewhere ... by the foot'. Glass monteiths in c.1700 were rare, but smaller glass versions or 'coolers' holding up to two glasses, with one or two lips at the rim, appeared during the early 18th century, achieving their greatest popularity about 1750-1860.'
Whilst I know that the uranium content dictates how early it would have been made, I'm not sure this would have been made as late as into the 20th century. I've found one in a picture of the Randolph link that is the same as mine, but clear glass. The description of it is not the same as the picture of the one on the table (which is the same design as mine as far as I can see) - top picture.
http://foundinthecollection.blogspot.co.uk/2012_06_01_archive.html
m
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My collection would be vastly improved by having all these pieces ;)
I had typed the following before seeing m's latest missive.................so will add a little....
I have rinsers (see below) with Walsh backstamp, which I suspect were produced somewhere between 1930 and 1950 - so obviously they formed part of a full suite of table glass even at that recent date - they are decorated with Walsh's Grape & Vine engraving. Of course, whether the owners actually used them is a different matter ;D
I think in general earlier examples of rinsers, 1780 - 1820, particularly clear ones, tended to have straight sides and were taller - they seem to shrink and develope curved bases and incurved rims after that sort of period. The books often show bristol blue examples signed by Isaac Jacobs, with both straight (ish) and curved sides which he decorated with a Greek key border c. 1810.
The suggestion is that due to longer wine stems in the C18, they needed to be deeper - up to about 4.25 inches sometimes. On the other hand I've shallow examples by Walsh that barely make 2.5/8" deep - what sort of glass you'd get into that I don't know. It's true that slice cutting was a common form of decoration on early C19 rinsers - usually on the lower half of the bowl, and if clear the colour should be greyish - and pontil depressions from that time are often very large, with only a smallish ring left around the outer base on which to stand.
Believe that S&W/RB did something in the C20 called 'Chrysoprase', which was like m's bowl in colour - but suspect it didn't have a uranium content.........although they did produce glass with the glow, so could it be theirs?
Nothing to do with S&W Chrysoprase remotely............ attached is pic of uranium finger bowl - and this I've always assumed to be the traditional C19 chrysoprase - a term introduced apparently by Harrachov - do people think this is chrysoprase? Unfortunately, I don't have a stem to go with my rinser :'(
Since finger bowls were made, as part of a full suite, right up the mid C20 probably, then maybe rinsers also lasted until a similar date.
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I'm a bit confused Paul - is that opaline uranium glass piece you posted a pic of, a finger bowl or a rinser- you called it a finger bowl but named it a rinser.
It looks like a glass rinser to me as it has two lips :-\
Do you have pictures of the Walsh rinsers please, do they have two lips?
thanks :)
You say in your last sentence that finger bowls were made up to the 20th century and then ask the question 'perhaps rinsers were as well?' yet earlier in your post you say you have Walsh rinsers that are marked with fruiting vine on them that you suspect date from between 1930 and 1950 - I don't understand. If you have Walsh rinsers that are marked Walsh then are you saying they could date from the 19th century?
There is a picture of a Wine Service in the John Walsh Walsh book page 25, which includes 12 different items including a small bowl which could be a finger bowl of some sort (no lips) but no rinser in the set. I couldn't find any other references to a rinser (meaning a bowl with two lips) in there on cursory glance, but didn't go through every single pattern with a magnifying glass...which is often necessary :)
It says in the book the trademark WALSH was registered in 1926 and subsequently modified in the 1930's to include the word ENGLAND underneath, so if you have rinsers(with two lips) as opposed to finger bowls and they are marked as above, then that should help you date them.
btw just to add the weight, my rinser is 3 1/2" high but 51/2" wide and 4 1/2" front to back deep at the rim and weighs just over 1 1/2lb or 25oz, and the rim width of the glass is 5mm
m
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ughhhhhh - not a good day................ and with apologies to Dave for highjacking his thread. :)
my piece glows very well, so is definitely uranium - it looks to me like a shiny surface chrysoprase - some chrysoprase has a matt surface.
It has two lips and is 100% a rinser.................C18 examples (of rinsers) often had a single lip only.
I think it's probably Continental in origin.
I confused myself completely (and no doubt everyone else) by having several stabs at the typing and looking at too many books in the process and then getting muddled. :-[
I have both finger bowls and rinsers with Walsh backstamps..............the rinser carries the slightly earlier mark of simply WALSH - and according to Reynold's book, I would therefore date to somewhere between 1926 and the late 1930's.
My fingers bowls carry the WALSH - ENGLAND backstamp, which would appear to date them to late 1930's to c. 1950............. it seems quite safe (famous last words) to say that both items still formed part of a complete table service of glass until c. 1950, possibly, although maybe the rinser demised a little earlier than the finger bowl.
You'll see the typical pale centred leaf of Walsh 'grape & vine'pattern.
Pic of Walsh rinser attached, and apologies to all for the confusion. :)
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thanks :) nice to see a pic of it as well.
It's very short to be a rinser? especially since fruiting vine wine glasses are quite large - how wide is it please?
Mount Vernon show their pic like this so the glass does stick out the top of the bowl
http://www.mountvernon.org/shop/new-shop/hand-blown-wine-rinser-and-tavern-glasses
they were made to be filled with water and some ice and then you turned the stem to rinse it all round as far as I read.
I wonder if you could get a wine glass of that era into a bowl that only measures 2 5/8" tall? none of those I've come across are that short, the shortest I've found so far is 3 1/4" (I'll keep looking). Mount Vernon say their wine rinsers are approximately 3" deep. So that's a reproduction and still taller than your bowl - bit confusing :-\
With regards your uranium green opaline glass rinser - opaline comes in matt satin or shiny surface depending on how they finished it. I don't believe the finish on the surface dictates the type of glass it is :)
I'd have to check up on Chrysoprase as I believe it was a Baccarat name but could be mistaken.
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The Walsh rinser is 5.25" from outside of lip to outside of lip - and I've just tried a Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' sherry glass and it just about fits - but the same pattern wine glass would be far to large to even think of it fitting.
It's possible that these things were made simply as a token item to complete the service - not perhaps with the intention of actually using them......... but then I guess you might revolve the glass in the bowl, such that it cleans the rim all round.
Try this link from some time back................ http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3159.msg31538.html#msg31538
and let me know what you think, some time.
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;D I knew there'd been some discussion on it somewhere (Chrysoprase)
I'll have a look through my Harrach books later and see if there is anything there. Thanks :)
edited to add - sorry Paul but I found this
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,603.msg123472.html#msg123472
Where Ivo states that the Chrysopras referred to is not the same as Chrysoprase perfected by Baccarat.
I'm not convinced my rinser dates as late as 20th century still - sorry :-[ but I'll keep an open mind :)
m
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thanks - and I'm not going to argue with those guys - they're genuinely clever people. I'll stick to just having a 'uranium green rinser from somewhere in the C19'.
Problem with dating is that so many styles and designs have been copied, it's not always easy to be certain you have a period piece, but it's an attractive item for sure. :)
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It's equally likely that the jade (a useful descriptor) rinser is English. Tye was having marked hyacinth vases made in c 1850. Chysoprase was certainly a Webb colour
I would still say M's rinser could be 20th C or possibly late 19th. Uranium glass seems to have been generally shades of green and yellow until late in the 19th C from my observations rather than amber and looking at the Webb colours in Hajdamach
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Christine, I think my description of the colour was honey coloured and probably that was wrong - it's not anywhere near amber.
It's really yellow - if I stand it next to my Carlo Moretti yellow it's more or less that colour.
And putting it next to the Walsh uranium, it's the same yellow (which is also a bright yellow) but doesn't even have the slight orange tinge to it that the Walsh does. The only tinge to it is the green that can be seen in daylight.
I'll try and sift my pics and find a Walsh comparison that gives a truer colour.
But perhaps my description was misleading using honey - sorry that's my fault.
I'm looking at them stood on the window sill with daylight at the mo and the Walsh is much more honey coloured with that orangey tint even though it looks bright yellow.
m
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It certainly doesn't look like a standard yellow uranium from that pic; there's a definite hint of brown
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=573
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yes I think there is as well, it's a pretty, soft yellow, but I suppose it's just not as obvious as the Walsh uranium.
Edited to add - Christine is it known that the Tye vases were made in England ?
m
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It's unlikely that Tye went elsewhere being surrounded by glass factories
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thanks :)
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and in those days, though there were imports, it's very unlikely there would have been outsourcing outside the country.
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Yes I can see that's possible.
Thanks.
m
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Pamela's book does comment on this matter - well worth getting and a good read ;) ;)
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I'll get shot again.........I do mean Patricia, of course :-[