Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: yelooc on December 20, 2007, 08:07:12 AM
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I am told that the new Dulwich glass fair was very badly attended. Is this telling us something? With two a year in Gaydon, Cambridge and London; thats a glass fair every two months. This is looking like an over sold market.
Graham
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Like everything else it depends on whether you are buying or selling. Fairs are actually a very effective way to expand the market as a whole as well as the knowledge base. The level of attendance at any particular fair may depend on a variety of factors. Date, timing, location, clashing with other events, political mood, news breaking, can all have an effect on the success of a fair. Plus of course that elusive science - marketing.
Sometimes contacts are made that bring in excellent business later, even when sales seem slow. Nevertheless, a fair is like a party - if you don't reach a critical mass with attendance you don't get the buzz and atmosphere that engenders a feelgood factor. A room full of exhibitors all waiting to pounce on one or two buyers is not conducive to good business!
However, it can take several years before a fair gets up to speed.
Btw there is also the Northern Glass Fair to add to your list!
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What Northern Glass Fair? It vanished after Haydock last year, but it wasn't exactly heaving.
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One factor that may well have negatively affected the Dulwich fair was the weather - it was quite wet that day in many parts of the country!
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The morning of the Dulwich fair was awful, with heavy rain and gale-force winds - they even issued a Severe Weather Warning for the south-east! This might have put a lot of people off traveling. However, we went in the afternoon and it had brightened up considerably. The venue was superb! Great big windows which really let in loads of sunlight when the sun finally came out. The glass really glittered!
I was sorry it was poorly attended, but hope that the next one will be better, as we really felt it was an excellent fair :D
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I considered going, but realised it was just not that simple to get to from Norfolk. I think fairs like Cambridge will be better as they are out of built up areas and the travelling/parking is that much easier. Assuming you have a car of course but since we don't have anything resembling public transport here that is a given >:D.
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The points made by Adam are all valid and I agree with his posting.
Whilst I take your point about travelling Tim, the parking space at Dulwich College was not a problem. Unlike previous London fairs held at Battersea and The Commonwealth Institute, for instance, it was also free. However, the high entry price (£7.00 - with reductions if an advert was shown) may also have affected the number of people who came along. I understand from the organisers that the admission price in April is to be pegged at £5.00.
Btw I had a customer brave the weather all the way from Southampton!
Nigel
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I might be on my own here with this point however I have to admit to being rather miffed at paying an entrance fee to attend a fair. I can appreciate that the organisers have overheads to claw back but I personally believe this should be done through other means like advertising opportunities and the fees charged to the exhibitors. I don't believe potential buyers should be charged an entrance fee of any sort and I'm not a miserly person - I think it's a cheek and will adversely affect attendance.
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I might be on my own here with this point however I have to admit to being rather miffed at paying an entrance fee to attend a fair. I can appreciate that the organisers have overheads to claw back but I personally believe this should be done through other means like advertising opportunities and the fees charged to the exhibitors. I don't believe potential buyers should be charged an entrance fee of any sort and I'm not a miserly person - I think it's a cheek and will adversely affect attendance.
I understand your point of view Pip, but as a stallholder/exhibitor at plant fairs/shows I would say that many events are already pushing what they charge to stallholders. And I expect that stall fees at collectable and antique type events are a lot higher than they are at plant shows. I have dropped several events over the last year or two because they pushed the stall fees up too much, it is easier to sell online than go all over the place with the van. The end result of course is that the range of stalls decreases and events become filled with cheap tat as the specialist stalls are usually the first to disappear.
When I started going to fairs with plants about 11 years ago and the average then was £10-£20 or 10% for a 4m pitch. Now several events are asking for over £100 for the day, still with a 4m pitch, when plant sales and prices have remained unchanged. Effectively the pitch fee has increased to 40% or more of the takings on a poor day, I have even failed to take the pitch fee at some event lately ::). Those that charge percentages have gone up too, fairly typical is a £20 deposit paid 6 months in advance and then 15% on the day. As I say the actual amount of cash that I take in the day has remained largely unchanged over those 11 years, in many cases the takings at a show have dropped significantly, I know one nursery who have exhibited at Hampton Court Palace Flower Show since it started and in the first few years they took £35,000 in the week - last year they took £6500 over a longer show (it has been stretched by 2 days) and with significantly higher costs. Okay that all relates to plants but I would guess that glass etc isn't too far removed :huh:
Oh, and if anyone thinks there are too many glass fairs, just look at how many flower shows/fairs/sales etc there are nowadays >:D
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Bearing in mind the fact that I often go to glass fairs and buy only one or at most two items, I am personally more than happy, as a 'punter', to pay an admission fee!
I understand that organisers have to recoup their costs and that if they charge stall-holders too much they will be unable to attract enough of them. I realise that I have to pay for the pleasure of browsing through all that beautiful glass, usually in pleasant and comfortable surroundings, even though I may not be able to afford to buy all I would like.
Even 'jumble sales' (although there aren't so many of those these days!) have always traditionally charged a small admission fee!
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I'm jealous! :mrgreen: You guys are lucky to even have glass fairs!
We have nothing like that here. I live in the biggest city in Australia & sadly the antiques scene is very small. We have a big antiques fair once a year that is full of ultra expensive stock (as a collector on a budget I stopped bothering to go) & the rest is all small fairs & markets where one generally sees the same old stuff over & over again.....
No wonder most of what I buy now is off the internet!
Think yourselves lucky for all those glass fairs-what I would give for just one! :(
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I don't mind paying a reasonable entrance cost either - I think a fiver is reasonable for most selling events. Anything above that and it has to be something pretty special to make me go.
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I think a few of the general antique fairs are noticing a significant drop in attendance - Swinderby now has a free day and Newark does half-price tickets if you print a voucher from the fair organiser's website.
But I do begrudge paying to get into these things, especially the larger ones. Each stallholder is paying between £150-400+, and there are, at peak season, around 1,500 stallholders at these events. If you can't run at a profit when each of the larger fairs is raking in a minimum of a quarter of a million pounds from stallholders for a 2-3 day event, then clearly you're doing something wrong.
I do know a lot of dealers who are having to quit the fairs, though, purely because they're so uneconomical these days with the increasing fees, the dwindling customers, and the competition of the internet and eBay. It was shocking how many of the sellers at the last fair I went to earlier this month were selling up and shutting down. My shop site's starting to take on a fair few consignment pieces from local dealers who just can't shift their stock out in the real world anymore.
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People are spoilt for choice, so far though, some dealers have not really made the transition to the new business model needed as a result of the web. The few times I have been in the UK at the same time as one of these, I have not found it attractive enough to travel to them and without doubt because I can spend more time making a decision with a web purchase. In any event, I prefer general fairs as there are other things to look at than just glass.
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People are spoilt for choice, so far though, some dealers have not really made the transition to the new business model needed as a result of the web.
Several of the more traditional fair dealers I've chatted to as I meander round the fairs do regard the internet with suspicion, and the general concensus amongst them is that the 'net is a silly fad and eBay is for "crooks and amateurs" to quote one of them. But then these are the people who've been hauling the exact same nondescript and/or hugely overpriced stock for the last 2-3 years.
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Well I can only speak for myself and my hubby but we won't visit any fairs that require payment to get in - I just can't get my head around the need for charging visitors. I'm not charged to walk around a department store or shopping mall so I can't see why I should have to pay to visit a fair. There are, fortunately, plenty of really good general antiques fairs around here we can visit that don't charge an entry fee. If I were just a general collector then paying a fiver entrance fee probably wouldn't be a big deal but, as a dealer I can spend that fiver much better elsewhere.
Free entrance to these events would undoubtedly have a positive effect on the numbers attending.
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Hi, The Plus points of buying from fairs for me are........... You can handle and if lucky buy that special piece of glass at a LOWER price than Ebay. I love haggling and you don't get that on Ebay unless there is a " Make offer " .
There are no postage costs which easily covers the cost of admission and lastly there is the meeting up with friends and all the chat. Usually more time spent chatting about glass than looking.
Regards Patrick.
PS. See you at the next Cambridge fair.
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Patrick - good points, but you can handle the glass and not have to pay postage costs at all the free fairs I go to. So anyway, yes have fun at the Cambridge and I'll have fun at Kempton Park :-)
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I remember that discussion from way back in the Alexandra Palace fairs. We used to be in the car park by 6am and you could start stalling up at 8 with no public entry until 12. Needless to say there was a LOT of car park activity and plenty of people would just turn up for that then go home. The public only had to pay a nominal few shillings to get in and the argument was that it kept people that were not serious out. I found this stratification irritating as I considered the public, not the trade, as my clients and never sold before midday. As the organizers realised that the public were coming because of the Fair's good name, they started increasing the door prices and that fair quickly nose-dived. They also introduced a dealer ticket that gave entry at 8 o clock. To stop dealers booking a table and leaving BEFORE 12. So I blame the organisers for getting greedy. When I first sold at that fair I could be certain of taking at least 1,000 pounds often closer to 2, but the last few fairs the table prices rose, public admission rose, and the takings collapsed. By the late 80's I had given it up and it had turned into a really trashy fair.
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Hmm, I see this topic has wondered somewhat from the original question, partly, I assume as a result of my comment about entry costs at the Dulwich Glass Fair, or the TGCF - what a mouthful when translated into the confusing title 'The Glass Collector's Fair'. See also flyers for Gaydon which proclaims 'The ORIGINAL National Glass Collector's Fair', hence possible confusion as well as lacking a snappy title. Perhaps that's why the latter is more often than not referred to as either 'Gaydon', or even 'Birmingham' as a reference to its former location.
IMHO the Dulwich Fair failed to promote itself through an inability to gain editorial to back a rather strange advertising campaign in a number of up-market magazines, including 'Elle Decoration'. Virtually no trade promotion and no trade advertising. Why ignore a tried and tested route - used originally to great effect by the promotors of the Birmingham glass fair based at the Motor Cycle Museum (Gaydon) and now by the Cambridge Glass Fair?
I understand that the idea was to reach a wider audience that had not been introduced to glass for the Dulwich based fair, but why throw the baby out with the bath water? Without effective explaination of what the uninitiated might expect to see at the fair the advertising was all but bound to fail!
Exhibitors pay for a stand at any fair and by so doing they effectively share in the risk taken by the promotor, agreed on a smaller scale, but nevertheless a share. If that promotor makes mistakes then he, or she, risks that share .... but without any control on the exhibitor's part. Therefore, it is important to know that the promotion of a fair, however large or small, is going to produce a reasonable to good gate - which is what I can expect at Cambridge, and presumably at the fair announced by those organisers called 'Reflect', which is to take place in London in June 2008.
Does that mean it is bound to fail because, as Graham asked at the beginning of this thread, there are already too many fairs? None of us can truely answer that, especially as it is a new venue, but the organisers track record suggests their input will increase its probability of success.
Strangely the question about too many fairs was not being asked when the Woking Glass Fair existed, in fact Cambridge was in the same situation as Dulwich is now - recently started. And look what happened there.
The question I believe we should be asking is NOT are there too too many glass fairs, BUT rather how can we convert a larger proportion of the population into the joys and qualities of glass? At present only a tiny part of a percentage are interested in glass. Surely it is not impossible to increase this percentage, even if only by a tiny amount? I believe that the key to that is by promotion, by dealers, fair organisers and glass organisations, but also by the support and evangelising of collectors.
Promotion by fair organisers costs time and money and they are entitled to reclaim that cost, unless they are doing it for love. Like anybody else, if it is their living, it is a necessity that they charge for that work. The usual equation for this is that the stands pay the overheads and the gate gives the profit. Depending upon the organiser the profit can be built in before the doors open, or it may be that the gate determines break even. I know of examples of each scenario.
Lastly, since there has been discussion about fair entry, I will say this, the old expression 'You pays ya money, and ya takes ya choice' comes to mind - but by not paying think about what you miss seeing, handling and maybe even buying!! Not to mention a singular lack of support toward a subject that one is interested in and which helps produce new collecting (and therefore dealing) areas within the subject of glass - which we all benefit from.
Happy collecting and dealing in 2008 to everyone. Nigel
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I cannot see how a glass only fair will attract new collectors. If they come to a glass fair they are already interested. The option of a general fair is potentially better for attracting new collectors and this can be achieved by good display, generous distribution of information and interesting stock! A glass fair offering free public entry has a better chance of attracting new people but if the advertising campaign was so odd, why did dealers rent a space. Presumably they felt that this 'new' approach might have winners and thus felt it worth a gamble... or perhaps they did no research into the fair and how the organisers organised and just rented because it was there!
When I started selling glass there was virtually no market and the very first London Decorative Arts Fair had only one other stall selling glass (Lalique and Argy Rousseau) interestingly they were also the only other glass dealers I knew of at the time who took an interest in Monart - as a result of my display. When that fair relocated to Kensington on its 3rd or 4th outing, there were still no other glass only sellers, I recall, although they started to appear around about then. As many as twenty percent of my customers were new to collecting and I got a lot of new customers from those fairs. My stall at Portobello was actually better than any fair and was also responsible for bringing dozens into glass collecting. To be honest, when I switched to Scottish Glass from silver and general, I stopped selling. It took 12 months before I made my first sale but by that second year I had people seeking me out.
The other things less likely to be found at a specialist fair is bargains and complete oddities
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The other things less likely to be found at a specialist fair is bargains and complete oddities
Hi, I agree that is true if you compare a Glass fair to a general Antique fair and a Car boot where bargains are to be had from sellers that have done minimal research into the prices of items they are selling.
A specialist collector can still be lucky enough to find glass that has been missed by the dealers who are able to look and buy other dealers stock before the general public are allowed in. I am sure that there are dealer/collectors that only take a stall at Glass fairs to make money buying before the general public get in.
Regards Patrick.
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... A specialist collector can still be lucky enough to find glass that has been missed by the dealers who are able to look and buy other dealers stock before the general public are allowed in. ...
Quite true, Patrick. I find more bargains, and find them more cost effectively, at glass fairs than anywhere else. And sometimes I find them well after the public are allowed in. And that general statement is true for me by a factor of two or three, not just by a small margin. Most of the finest pieces of British glass I have had through my hands have been bought at glass fairs.
In my considered opinion, what the glass collecting community in Britain desperately needs is a cheap and cheerful glass market, somewhere central like the two huge barns at Ryton, held on the Saturday before Gayton so that long-distance dealers and collectors can combine the two. Something like £25 for a single, £40 for a double, no extra tables, no power, two badges per single or double, badgeholder entry 10.00 – 12.00, public £2.00 12.00 – 2.30. It seems to me that such an event would encourage general dealers to save up their best glass and participate. I keep suggesting it, but no-one seems interested, so there must be something obvious wrong with the idea.
This would address the serious problem with the existing glass fairs — their cost. The cost of display space at these fairs has risen sharply over the last decade, eliminating inexpensive glass as its margins don't warrant its display. So my cheap and cheerful Bagley, Sowerby, Chance, Davidson, Victorian pressed, &c., &c. gathers dust in boxes left at home. Tough on the novice collector or those with limited budgets, who are those we should be attracting.
Bernard C. 8)
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I am sympathetic towards a lower-end glass fair/market. Stalls offering good-quality, low-priced glass, should attract plenty of stallholders and, in all likelihood, a healthy serving of punters.
Location is also key, and somewhere readily accessable from the motorway network around the Midlands could do well. The computer exhibitions I organised in the Midlands (c.1993-97) were always situated at the National Motorcycle Museum on the A45 and right next to the rail, air and motorway networks! Couldn't have been better.
Of course, this venue might not be so suitable for the type of fair proposed.
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I agree - that's a great idea Bernard. I would have no objection to paying a nominal fee like £2 to attend a fair such as the one you mentioned where I'm much more likely to end up buying things. I'm afraid a £5 or £10 entrance fee to attend the exisiting glass fairs where I'm extremely unlikely to buy anything (serious glass out of my budget) is not feasible in my case.
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An interesting series of postings by Frank, Bernard, David and Pip.
Unfortunately, climates change and what was suitable back in the 1980's or 1990's is not the same as now. Fashion, new information, economics (with all the implications), for instance, all have a part to play.
As for checking out the advertising campaign of a new organiser before you book, well, think on. I have traded at fairs at all levels over the last 21 or so years - from straightforward Sunday fairs through to 20th Century at Olympia, and including the DMG fairs and the NEC. These fairs all have different forms of promotion and are tailored to the relevant budget. Olympia even has an additional, non-optional advertising budget on top of the cost of the fair (not to mention an extra fee for electricity, etc, etc.) An existing fair has a known and tested campaign for all to follow, but a new organiser is (was) unlikely to give out details of a fresh approach to the subject as, to them, it is a sensative issue. A general indication was given by the organiser's of Dulwich and that was enough for many dealers to book. I have rarely felt any need to ask direct questions about an organisers promotion package, since that is generally regarded as their province. Trust is, or has been, part of the process. Maybe, this should change and we should all ask arkward questions of the organiser, but I doubt it practicable.
However, the over-riding issue was not should I ask a question about the promotion of the fair, it was a relief that at last someone was prepared to run a fair in the London area. Both Dulwich and Reflect were announced within the same month, so there is now even a choice for 2008. This demand was apparently driven by both collectors and dealers who have all long been asking for someone to run a London based glass fair, so why question a demand that we (and I mean we) dealers were already aware of? But, if the promotion is not placed where it would attract the known demand, but elsewhere, presumably because the budget was only so big, then the whole thing becomes reliant on word of mouth. This should be good, but only if dealers as a whole are buzzing with the news. Because there was no use of the trade papers, there was no news, even if only to attract the dealers! The dynamics of this process were, for me, not given the creadance they perhaps should have had.
I do not believe I know the barns at Ryton, but the idea of placing a fair such as you suggest Bernard the day before a major event in the glass calendar beggers belief. I'm not surprised that you had little response. In itself the idea could work, but my immediate reaction is that it be, say, in July or even August. Allow it space to breathe and it could work in it's own right, instead of putting a spanner in the works of an existing event and trying to work off the back of it. Whether the economics would work out at the prices you suggest I leave that to whoever takes up the gauntlet, but unless it is an immediate sell-out, both stalls and gate, I have a feeling that the organisers could make a loss on promotion alone.
It would appear that, since the rebuild of the Motor Cycle Museum rental costs have sky rocketed, which is why the Gaydon fair remained where it moved to and why other organisers (several) have costed it as a more up-market venue - and still can't make the figures work. I therefore doubt it would be a possible venue for the type of fair suggested.
I note that two entry times are suggested, one with badges that appear to be attached to the stand holders and a second later entry for the public. This could engendour a feeling that all the bargains have gone before opening to the public - as we have seen discussed ealier. For the type of fair being envisaged maybe this isn't such a good idea. Yet, in my opion one of the reasons that Woking ultimately failed was that the opening rush dissappeared when early/trade entry was introduced. Without that rush and the resultant hum that is nescessary to give buyers confidence it felt doomed, so this side of the equation needs careful thought and treatment. If that dynamic is wrong it will not help the fair along.
Lastly, since we are now discussing a new sort of glass fair and there has been little about the original question posed by Graham, it seems that the concensous is that there aren't enough glass fairs in the UK!!
Nigel
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Interesting thoughts Nigel, but as for Bernard's suggestion "beggaring belief", I would have thought this would give dealers an opportunity to spread their costs over a single weekend, at two quite different fairs.
The other point to ask: what do the general public want? Some dealers might consider a Saturday fair (day before Gaydon) is a non-starter, possibly because it would attract a different clientele, but I personally think it might just attract a fresh influx of collectors.
Like Pip, I would be more attracted to this type of fair. That's not to say I don't enjoy the up-market variety (Gaydon, Cambridge, Dulwich), which exhibits how wide the range of glass collecting can be.
As for Graham's original suggestion, I think this topic does indeed amplify the need for more fairs – but not neccessarily ones having the same format 8)
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There are no glass fairs in the north after the short-lived and now seemingly defunct Northern Glass Fair. We attended the first one at Harrogate and enjoyed it tremendously, although it was not busy. It was held at the same time as the big antiques event nearby, and I suspect didn't benefit in the way the organisers had hoped from that proximity. The subsequent move to Haydock Park doesn't appear to have improved things as there has been no news of this fair since Oct 2006, and the website for it is now gone. Perhaps its short-lived timespan indicates there isn't a great demand for a glass fair up here despite those of us on the board who live in the north who would welcome one.
As to having two entry times, I can't think of anything other than a high entry price which would deter me more from attending an event than knowing that the first few hours are dealers only and they have the advantage over the public in terms of seeing what is there first.
From my own experiences at various (non-glass) shows, I think that Saturday events are not as well supported as Sunday ones because there are so many other family related demands on people's time on a Saturday. For those who work or who have children, the demands of a Saturday include having to shop, sports events, taking the kids to various activities, and so on. Once those are done then Sunday can be spent in leisure activities like visiting glass fairs.
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As a 'punter', I would say that I would definitely spend more at glass fairs if the prices were lower! I often see the same items at a succession of fairs, and every time I think, "No, I'm still not going to buy it, however much I like it. And nor is anyone else - that's why it's still there!" Yet the dealers never seem to drop the prices :-\ I often find myself wondering why they can't see that they'd sell twice as much if they charged half the price! I know dealers have to get back what they've paid for something plus cover their costs, but surely there has to be a compromise situation?
So I would certainly love a 'cheap and cheerful' glass fair like Bernard suggests, where dealers brought their little cheap items and even pieces with small amounts of damage - although I know I'm on a limb with this one ::) :-[
Another problem for me as a buyer is the fact that so few dealers take 'plastic'! And yes, I know the reasons they don't. But everywhere you see shops refusing to take cheques these days. Soon glass fairs will be the only places you need a cheque book! ;D ::) Personally, I never carry a cheque book, preferring to use a debit card, and I only usually have a couple of cheques stuffed in my wallet for 'emergencies'. So frequently at a glass fair I don't buy more than 2 items because I've already used my cheques! (Unless of course some kind person who knows and trusts me allows me to send them a cheque in the post. You know who you are ;) Thank you! )
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Agree about the two-tier entry prices - very discriminatory and off-putting to the general public when they know the dealers are 'creaming off the top'!
However, in a way I disagree about the distinction between Saturdays and Sundays: these days there seems very little difference between the two - many shops open, sports events.
Leni, I'm not overly concerned about tiny nibbles or base wear either, providing I am alerted to them at the time of purchase — and a suitable price tag is fixed!
Made suitable modifications to credit cards years ago (cut the bu**ers in half! >:D) and only use debit or cheques now.
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Firstly thanks very much for responding to my question; it has been a very interesting debate. I asked the question because I am consious that overhead markets collapse and we are in difficult times across the whole antiques trade.
I have a little bit of inside knowledge since I was one of the founders of the Cambridge Glass Fair and therefore understand the finances quiet well. I pulled out because I did not have the time required to match the huge effort that Paul and Christina put in to staging the event. I was also not interested in providing a service to people that I did not find very grateful. And the missing piece of information that you probably all need is that Glass Fairs dont make much money (if any!). Frankly, I often wonder why they bother; but am very glad that they do.
We have an extremely vibrant glass collecting industry in the UK and I suggest that we all listen to the Australian contributor who points out how lucky we are. Its vibrant because lots of very enthusiastic people make important contributions with little or no return. This includes the collectors who stage exhibitions at glass fairs to educate the public and those that put their time into the GA and GC.
Indusries need to be supported by those who gain from them and paying a small entrance fee at a glass fair perhaps should be viewed as our contribution.
Pip, the next Cambridge glass fair is in February; I can assure you that you will learn alot; I always do. Here's the deal. I'll pay your entrance fee and you can write us a review posted here!
Bernard "no one ever listens to me", should ask himself why?
The day that these fairs 'go broke' we will all wish we'd listened to the Aussies!!
Graham
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LOL Graham (I've only just sussed out that's who you are thanks to David) whilst it's very kind of you to offer to pay my entrance at the Feb CGF, £5 or £10 is obviously not beyond my reach - it's more the principle of the thing and, I suppose, I like complaining! Seriously, although I find the entrance fee irksome it's not what's stopped me visiting the fair in the past - my daughter's busy schedule of activities is the main reason.
If I were to look upon the CGF like a visit to my favourite museum then the entrance fee would be OK - after all I'll happily pay a tenner to visit the Natural History Museum with my daughter - but it would therefore be an educational visit and not a business one. In other words I wouldn't be visiting with the intention of buying anything (it's all too expensive for me anyway, I'm right squeaky these days) just to look and learn.
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I Agree with Patrick often i have been at the front of the queue and found many stunning pieces at the back of tables with bargain prices and when i have picked them up have been told by the stallholder oh no thats what i paid for it earlier or even last night at fairs that set up the night before,many friends have told me thats why they have stopped going to fairs.
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I have to say that the only Glass fair I go to is Cambridge, and I don't buy anything there either. I don't mind paying to get in, as I know I'm not going to buy anything (unless it is very wee and just for me - I have no room for any serious collection) but it is a great opportunity for me to meet with people I talk to here, and to the glass experts, and just get a physical feel for glass I may never have the chance to buy.
And it gets me out of the house and away from the computer for a change!!!
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And we oop north get nowt,..... please dont all shout at once.....!!! i did get in touch with lumley estates....but it is being sold.
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John, you're a very naughty man! You've been a glass dealer for ten years without admitting it. You buy as low as possible and sell for as much as you can just like the other dealers; and so you should!
The answer to your issue is simple; buy a table, get in with the other dealers and enjoy the benefits.
People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones; or get them out of the back of their car!
Graham
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No Graham I have been collecting glass for thirty years, for the last few years i have been selling a few pieces to mostly dealer friends who are pleased not to have to look for stock,I am doing this so i can still buy glass on a small pension,I still support glass fairs i even put a lot of effort in to help promote one and have been doing so for a long time.do you not buy as cheap as you can and sell for as much as you can,any glass i take to a fair is for stallholders that have asked me or for identification or discussion thats what makes glass fairs work,I do not sell to their customers i believe you have bought from me or are you the other Graham known as Mr Sour Grapes.I thought this forum was for discussion a question was asked and i picked up on Patricks thread i thought it may help understand why attendance has fallen ,several people have told that is why they have stopped attending.You have made this personal did i hit a raw nerve.I am now selling on ebay the pieces i no longer want so i dont have to put up with your xhit.Happy new year to the rest of you.John.
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Pleeeeeease don't let this thread deteriorate into personal attacks. The question was about fairs and are there too many.
I love them, in the South East we are starved of any large glass displays, and I mean good glass and don't mind paying the entrance fee, although I do think a limit of £5.00 is enough. It gives the opportunity for me to see and sometimes buy, glass which does not seem to be readily available on ebay, or local auctions.
I think the organisers are in the hands of the owners of the venue who also have escalating costs in respect of insurance, business council tax and heating fuels etc. I think it likely that nobody in the "chain" makes a lot of money and I think we cannot expect a cheap day out any more. If you go to the theatre these days it costs an arm and a leg for the same reasons already outlined above, so if you want to go, you just have to bite the bullet. One thing that does "irk" me though is that there is the odd venue which also charges £3.00 + for parking , usually in an area that would not be making any revenue anyway on a Sunday if there was no fair or other leisure event. Happy New Year
Emmi
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Debate on the GMB often results in assumptions being made on minor side-points, and care is needed when making a statement about other individuals based on these.
:) most collectors deal too, very few can afford to forever buy... whether it is for money or space, or just because one is bored with a piece? What eBay has done is to make it a lot easier for the collector to sell and particularly the smaller low value pieces which at one time were virtually unsellable except as parts of large lots.
For example my stamp collection - I was offered one thousand pounds by a dealer, since then I have sold about 40% of the collection and taken around 5,000 via web-site and eBay. Nice thing is that as many collectors have bought the common pieces as the rarer pieces so that the spread still remains good with rarer and common material.
The map collection was declared unsaleable by the dealers, as a lot, so I sold first singly and then some batched lots. Some 60% of the maps have sold.
Most of the glass I sold was high ticket stuff so more distorting for the collection, but that was a choice of necessity rather than anything else. My one remaining important and perfect vase is now up for sale too - no fixed price and I am as happy to sell via a dealer as any other way - except I choose not to use eBay in this case... might have to if I don't get a realistic offer soon.
It never occurs to me to try via a Glass Fair. Of course when I was in the trade those things did not happen and you only had half a dozen selling outlets in the whole of the UK, supplemented by a lot of auctions and those dreadful cabinet warehouses where the sellers were at work and buying was near impossible. So to deal successfully you needed a shop to keep things turning over but also to buy stock. My first few years in the trade were a travelling frenzy, constantly hunting but after a few years 90% of the stock came through the door - with 2 market outlets, I never felt the need to tour in fairs. When I started to specialise, I cut down to the shop and Portobello with all the glass at Portobello. People would visit regularly from as far away as Scotland 3 or 4 times a year - eventually I dropped the shop and just continued one day a week at Portobello. By then I only looked in shops/markets that I was passing by - most of my stock was brought to me at Portobello, or by appointment elsewhere.
I found this debate interesting as it threw up many surprises and puzzles.
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On the original remark - one glass fair per two months is hardly overkill. It takes any business at least two years to approach stability although legislation is making it very difficult for small businesses (5 or less people) as they are seen by tax authorities as troublemakers.
Running fairs is traditionally a lucrative business but one that does require substantial management, marketing and organisational skills. It does seem from some of the things said here that for Glass they are often very amateurish affairs. I would also dispute that the UK boasts a particularly strong collecting community for glass... why are there so few glass galleries - come to Amsterdam and see many with prices that make UK dealers green in envy. There are glass artists here that sell for four or five figure sums - admittedly there is less of 20th century historical interest, mostly derived and dull - but for collectors of antique engraved stemware and modern art glass there are very rich hunting grounds.
The few (general antiques and art) fairs that have happened in Amsterdam tend towards classical antiques, though modern glass does show too, the stock is extremely expensive - usually the finest condition and well documented. They sell!
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No not too many glassfairs, i love them Cambridge is my favorite i also like Gaydon i just thought it may help to pass on what some of the public are saying i also pass on many positive ideas,it would help if the few dealers put the pieces away until repriced and stop bragging about how cheap they got them while setting up.I am sorry i got heated but i did feel it was a personal attack. I see and speak to the other member frequently and to my face he is always charming. JPH.ps some of my ebay customers have asked me to take the items won to Cambridge to save postage as is often the case.?
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Hello John, you're right, it was wrong to be presonal, I also apologise.
There is an important point here, I think. It has become very easy to enter the market as a dealer because of ebay. I wonder how this will effect things long term. The continuing growth in the number of dealer/collectors has changed the market for the pure dealer.
As Frank put it earlier there is a new business model which is becoming increasingly important.
Happy New Year to all.
Graham
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It may be easy to enter, it is not easy to maintain a business. Expertise needs to be acquired, and customer service maintained.
People think selling on ebay is easy.... I can tell you it is just like any other business.
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I am pleased this has been put to bed due to the many good sensible people that contribute to the forum i feel it helps to talk things over if people are concerned about them it can only be good for the trade and collectors.Thanks JPH.