Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Germany => Topic started by: BJB on July 12, 2005, 03:18:26 PM
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Hi All,
I have added this as a new discussion from the Afors question in case it gets lost.
There was a purple vase about 5" tall with a gold band of figures around the base very similar to Moser of the 1920's but this has "Walther" and another number I can't remember impressed on the base. Would this have been a modern piece or a true Deco one? I know Walther made alot of Deco frog figures and bowls but had no idea they copied Moser.
Should I send my OH back for it :wink:
Barbara
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Barbara, the amethyst vase with the decorated band was very likely a 1930s original Walther. I have a similar one. A range of items with these decorations are shown in Walther's 1932 catalogue.
Out of interest, Rindskopf made a similar style of glass in Carnival (known now as Classic Arts and Egyptian Queen) at around the same time. They used a green stain on the decorated band to give a metallic effect.
Riihimaki in Finland also imitated the decorated band - in Carnival Glass - at the same time too. You can see the Riihimaki item and the original Moser items on my website in the article called "Amazon Women". Click on the link on the left hand menu on my website.
http://www.carnival-glass.net
Glen
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Hi Barbara
These are fairly common, the Walther ones that is, and a decent one with the gold intact can be found for as little as £15....if you are going back for it bear in mind no damage and the the gold not being worn. As far as I know they did not make these post WW11 so it would be 1930's.... if the date is important,
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Hi Glen,
well my dear other half (who is paying for said item) will be despatched to purchase the vase tomorrow and I'll post some pictures.
Is this an unusual type of glassware for Walther to have produced? It doesn't seem to fit in with the other type of items they produced.
Barbara
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Hi Gareth,
That puts a bit of a dampner on it then :(
Its quite a bit more than £15.00, so will have to have another think.
Don't mind if its a "Must have" but not for a "Maybe"
Barbara
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Barbara, I wish I could answer you with more expertise than I actually have with regard to Walther. I have no "in depth" knowledge of the company beyond a study of their catalogues and ownership of a small range of their glass (from the 1930s-1960s).
You asked:
Is this an unusual type of glassware for Walther to have produced? It doesn't seem to fit in with the other type of items they produced.
My answer would be that Walther made quite a wide range of glassware - their aim, I guess, in common with pretty much all other companies was to sell. So they would have produced glass in styles and patterns that was in the public taste at the time. Hence they made some Carnival Glass (my primary interest) and Cloud Glass (their Oralit) as well as the decorated band range that we are discussing. They also made much pressed glass in tableware shapes (bowls, plates, covered butters, decanter sets, jardinieres etc., etc.,) that are similar to other pressed glass makers of the era. In fact some of their intaglio designs are very similar to Brockwitz and Riihimaki examples.
Their fabulous table centerpieces and vases such as the "Greta" are just part of their wider range. Many of these were continued into the 1960s (Sachsenglas) so will be more available than the earlier items.
I haven't seen as many of the Walther figure band vases as Gareth has (I must have led a sheltered life :roll: ). I can recall a pair in a local antique shop a few years ago which were £90 the pair. I also have seen a few at Ardingly at fancy prices. Mine was fairly inexpensive - we got it some years ago simply because we liked it and thought it was most unusual. I should have noted yesterday that mine is not amethyst, it is amber.
Glen
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Hi Gareth,
That puts a bit of a dampner on it then :(
Its quite a bit more than £15.00, so will have to have another think.
Don't mind if its a "Must have" but not for a "Maybe"
Barbara
Hi Barbara
The price is simply a matter between you and yourself.... if its a must have and you've got the money...then why not. I get the impression that the ones I've seen that were "expensive" might well have been for no other reason than the seller assuming they were Moser....and that maybe the ones at the other end of the scale were underpriced. You must also bear in mind that trends change and that the price might have risen in recent years. The only fixed cost here is the amount you are prepared to pay and as has been pointed out before this is not an exact science. In the past I have paid what might have been considered as too much for something... but time has moved on and I still am very pleased with the pieces... so as far as I am concerned it was money very well spent.. and that is the main criteria. Try not to get bogged down or too influenced by prices... as they are not the definitive guide to worth or value.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Hi Gareth,
I know that price isn't everything, but at £60 it is a bit high, and the kids break up for the holidays on Friday :shock:
Don't mind about £25 for an item I'm not sure about but above that I do like to ask advice before parting with my hard earned cash :lol:
To be truthful I think I could do better buying a couple of the glass books I really want for that sort of money ( a nice papereweight one and a good one on Scandavian glass are top!)
Am off on my hols on Monday (yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh) so will look around Yorkshire to see what it has to offer :wink:
Barbara
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Hi Gareth,
, but at £60 it is a bit high, To be truthful I think I could do better buying a couple of the glass books I really want for that sort of money ( a nice papereweight one and a good one on Scandavian glass are top!)
Am off on my hols on Monday (yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh) so will look around Yorkshire to see what it has to offer :wink:
Barbara
Hi Barbara
Personally I couldn't agree with you more on both points.... and £60....phew!!....I am absolutely sure you will find one at least half that price.
Have a great holiday and luck with bargain hunting :wink:
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Barbara - sorry that my "history lesson" wasn't much use to you.
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Hi Glen,
I'm sorry that I hadn't replied to your post, I hadn't seen it :oops:
Am up to my armpits washing at the moment, why do children find out all the clothes they "need" to take on holiday are under the bed dirty and screwed up :cry:
I think I like the bowls and centre pieces better than the Moser like glass items. Not to keen on dressing table sets.
I think I must have lead a more sheltered life than you because I didn't know that they made carnival glass, and until recently thought most of their glass was Bagley or Sowerby :oops:
If Jobling copied Lalique and Bagley copied Jobling, and Sowerby copied Bagley etc etc did Walther come in at the begining or tailgate at the end?
Barbara
(Who MUST learn how to spell Scandanavian :oops: :oops: :oops: wishing there was a spell checker)
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Barbara - I sympathise with you re. the washing and packing (been there, done it, got the dirty tee shirt :roll: )
You actually pose a very interesting topic:
If Jobling copied Lalique and Bagley copied Jobling, and Sowerby copied Bagley etc etc did Walther come in at the begining or tailgate at the end?
There was a great deal of plagiarism among the pressed glass makers. Not only were they copying each other, they were also using each others moulds sometimes too. But I think it's not quite as simple as just copying. I personally see it more as a response to public demand and taste. If the style of the moment was, say, all things oriental, then were those who made designs suggestive of, say, peacock feathers copying each other, or were they responding to the stimulus of current style/trends?
What I'm trying to say (probably clumsily) is this: were the glass makers copying each other, or simply coming up with similar responses to common and current style trends? I'll answer my own question - both!
Another thing you mentioned -
I think I must have lead a more sheltered life than you because I didn't know that they made carnival glass, and until recently thought most of their glass was Bagley or Sowerby
Don't worry on this score - most people have no idea that Walther made Carnival Glass. I only discovered it myself about four or five years ago (around the time that I alerted Chris and Siegmar to Walther and Cloud Glass).
They did not make a vast amount of Carnival, but nevertheless it is most interesting to be able to identify items they did make - and in doing so, solve a few mysteries.
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Glen
I see on the c/glass site you are credited with providing a photograph of a Walther sepia cloud glass bowl with a "W"..... is there any chance you could post that photograph on this thread please that clearly shows this mark.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Gareth - I don't think the bowl has been firmly attributed to Walther. On the Cloud Glass website I am credited with information about Walther (blame me for spotting, back in 2001, that Walther made Cloud Glass) and also (separately) for a photo of a sepia bowl with a W mark on it. I sent Chris the photos back in 2001. I have the email but I can't find the photos right now. I do still have the bowl and will have to try and get a pic sometime. Below is part of what I wrote to Chris back then.....
I am attaching 3 photos of the inside of the bowl, the outside and also the W trademark. The W is cameo in the center of the marie, underneath. Quite small, but very distinct indeed. There is no pattern or ribbing on the bowl - very smooth indeed
Maybe Chris has the photos somewhere. I'll get another one done when I can
a) find the bowl
b) ask Steve to pretty please take a pic (he is sooo much better than I am at that).
Glen
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Hi Glen,
Rushing in after putting yet another load on the line (just glad its fine :D )
I have noticed that alot of Walther glass is mis-attributed on ebay and also "proper" auction houses. In the latter case usually by people who think they know and wont be told otherwise :evil: (and I have tried)
Hubby has said that if the vase is still there after the holiday AND we can try and get the price down it might be worth getting because of the mark on the base, a sort of reference for future use.
It would be nice to know which glass factory started the figural craze in the first place. Must be quite scary to make a range of complex moulds and not know if it will be popular or not. I suppose, thinking about it, the glass people copied the bronze and ivory figures which were being made in Germany and France, and made them available for the mass market :?:
Is the Walther cloud and carnival glass marked? I haven't seen any marks on the bowls or frogs I have had.
Barbara
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Barbara - Walther's Carnival is not marked. In fact not much Carnival is marked (well, the older, Classic Carnival that is). Northwood marked some of theirs, Riihimaki and Karhula marked some of their CG too. Sowerby...very occasionally, has a peacock. Some of the Aussie Carnival has an RD and some of the Indian made Carnival is also marked. Having said all that - the bulk of Carnival Glass is not trademarked.
I am not aware that Walther's Cloud is marked. I do have a cloud bowl (see above) with a W but no definite attribution as yet (er, I think).
And re. your note:
I have noticed that alot of Walther glass is mis-attributed on ebay and also "proper" auction houses.
I'd add that quite a lot of European Carnival is mis-attributed as well. Not as much as it used to be though, I'm glad to say.
Hope you have a great holiday.
Glen
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Hi Glen,
Is the Walther cloud and carnival glass marked? I haven't seen any marks on the bowls or frogs I have had.
Barbara
Hi Barbara
Of the 200 plus pieces of Walther cloud that I own or have access to I have not yet come across a single piece that is marked upon the glass....which is why Glens sepia bowl intrigues me.... more so as I am not aware of another manufacturer of the period having made cloud glass in sepia either.
Glen
As you have some 1930's Walther catalogues ( I believe ) have you found this bowl in them. It does not necessarily have to be in the Oralit section as I have pieces that are to be found in other parts of the catalogues.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Gareth and Glen,
would it worth buying that moser like vase for the mark on the base? As so much is unmarked.
Gareth,
What colour do you call sepia, it brings to mind the faded photo's of my late family that are dragged out at Christmas, and all looking as though they are awaiting the firing squad :lol: Why weren't they allowed to smile at least?
Barbara
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Gareth - some good news and some bad news. Plus a correction. First of all, I think the bowl is not sepia, but is amber. My apologies. And now the bad news.....I don't know where the darned bowl is. I've hunted through a few boxes but it's not there. We have a lot of boxes - mostly Carnival, but lots of other stuff too.
Now the good news - I have found the photos. Hooray.
http://tinypic.com/8wb69g.jpg
http://tinypic.com/8wb6nb.jpg
http://tinypic.com/8wb6sy.jpg
Now I will go through the Walther catalogues and see if I can find it.
Glen
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Let's throw a wild card into this discussion. I have also found a photo (I store them away a bit like my glass. Surprise, surprise when I find them. Nobody can ever accuse me of being organised) of a mystery piece of Carnival that has a W on a sticker.
http://tinypic.com/8wba54.jpg
And now I had better scour my catalogues again and see if I can figure out who made it.
Barbara, only buy the vase if you love it, love it, love it. To test if I should buy a piece of glass I do my own patent "Glen's Walk Away" test. Imagine you're looking at the glass, you want it, but you're not really, really sure. So, mentally, walk away from it. Leave it on the stall where someone else might just walk up and buy it. How do you feel now?
Are you shrugging your shoulders? Then don't buy it.
Are you bereft, wish you'd bought it, can't bear to think of it on someone else's shelf under a spotlight? Then run back and get it. Quick.
Glen
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Gareth and Glen,
would it worth buying that moser like vase for the mark on the base? As so much is unmarked.
Gareth,
What colour do you call sepia, it brings to mind the faded photo's of my late family that are dragged out at Christmas, and all looking as though they are awaiting the firing squad :lol: Why weren't they allowed to smile at least?
Barbara
Barbara
Regarding the marked piece I still feel that £60 is somewhat really excessive....the mark may well be of academic interest but in my opinion does not have the same credentials eg as a signature. I must stress however that this is my opinion only and not one representative of how any collecting market, forum or individual may view this.
Regarding your second point the easiest alternative reference I can think of is "brown" . If you have a look on the cloud glass website www.cloudglass.com you will see a section there that shows examples of the various cloud colours.
And Smiling. :) :) :) :) :) :) ....... probably not the done thing in those days and considered perhaps a vulgar habit of the working classes....
always great to see people smiling even in a world such as it is now.... can never be too much....smiles make poor people rich
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Gareth - some good news and some bad news. Plus a correction. First of all, I think the bowl is not sepia, but is amber. My apologies. And now the bad news.....I don't know where the darned bowl is. I've hunted through a few boxes but it's not there. We have a lot of boxes - mostly Carnival, but lots of other stuff too.
Now the good news - I have found the photos. Hooray.
http://tinypic.com/8wb69g.jpg
http://tinypic.com/8wb6nb.jpg
http://tinypic.com/8wb6sy.jpg
Now I will go through the Walther catalogues and see if I can find it.
Glen
Hi Glen
As you quite rightly point out this is a piece of amber...Davidsons ... and if memory serves me well a series 732F bowl. Definately not Walther but I wonder what the W represents..... I'll have to ask around as see if any others have this and if theirs also carries this mark.
Very many thanks for digging out the photographs
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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I love a good Mystery :lol:
Glen
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Glen,
Have thought and walked away, mentally that is, and had to agree that it was a not want (just a want for the mark) if I find a cheaper version then maybe.
Have now got to start on the mountain of ironing :cry:
Am seriously thinking of packing it un- ironed and just taking the iron with us,as it will all need re-doing when its unpacked :roll:
Just think in a weeks time I'll be doing it all again :shock:
Barbara
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Barbara - for years I had a keyring with the phrase
Behind every successful woman is a huge pile of ironing
And I'm glad you've come to a decision re. the vase. My Patented Test has helped me on many occasions :roll:
Glen
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Hi All
I have maybe 6 bowls with the W on the base some are cloud glass some are plain colours both clear and satin finished, I have also seen more, to the best of my knowledge they are all made by G. Davidson.
I emailed Chris at Cloud glass with photos of a bowl and a close up of the W mark also Siegmar at Pressglas-korespondenz, both had not seen this.
Barbara
On the vase with word Walther was it a Reg No as Walther took out a number of UK registations, sorry if we hijacked your topic, I did post this back in 2001/02 but we lost it all along with the message.
Tony H