Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Andy on March 01, 2008, 05:52:33 PM
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Ive spent a while cleaning this decanter, I dont believe anyone could not love it, even if cut glass is not their favourite! Going through my books, mainly British Glass 1800-1914 and The decanter, by Andy Mconnell, i have discovered its a 'Flagon' Decanter, Pinwheel decoration, and my best guess is Stevens and williams c 1870-1890 . Does anyone agree or disagree?? , im sure Stourbridge must be the answer :D
Thanks
Andy
ps its 8" tall, 6" wide, starcut base, and appears to be Perfect ;D
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Anybody agree this is English, maybe Stevens & Williams?
or any other ideas?
Cheers
Andy
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I wish I could offer some insight on your beautiful piece! There has been so much cut glass made in central Europe that it's hard to discount that possibility, but I think because of your air trap handle, you are probably safe in considering it and older item. Do you have a blacklight? That might possibly "illuminate" the subject (yuk, yuk, bad pun).
I don't see any pinwheels on it, the decoration you call it doesn't seem right.
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... Stourbridge must be the answer ...
Andy — Why Stourbridge? To satisfy the demand brought about by middle-class lifestyle rule books like Mrs Beeton, cut decorated decanters were also made in huge quantities in Birmingham, Manchester, London, Tyneside, and, as Kristi has said, in central Europe.
It is extremely difficult identifying patterns. Many Sowerby patterns (yes, Sowerby made cut glass in significant quantity) are on Glen's CDs, and there is a selection of Percival Vickers patterns in Glass Association Journal No. 2. British museums (with a handful of refreshing exceptions) have an unstated but effective policy of making access to documentation sources as difficult as possible, so, if you want to check the Stourbridge pattern books, you should organise several days (weekdays only) at the Rakow Research Library, Corning Museum of Glass, New York, where there is free access to the pattern books on microfiche, with an unlimited free hardcopy facility.
One final point. Always check the tie number (engraved on the stopper and rim or neck of the decanter) for British / Continental "1"s and "7"s.
Bernard C. 8)
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... and note that a British tie number does not exclude the possibility of a Continental blank.
Bernard C. 8)
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"One final point. Always check the tie number (engraved on the stopper and rim or neck of the decanter) for British / Continental "1"s and "7"s."
Just yesterday I was thinking about posting a question about what you can tell about origin of European glass from different ways of writing numbers and letters! Will you please explain what you mean?
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Neither shape nor design are in the S&W catalogues in the Glass Study which are c1893 and c1910
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Kristi — In my experience, British tie number "1"s are either a single vertical, or a single vertical on a horizontal base like the first two strokes in a game of hangman; "7"s are as printed here.
Continental "1"s have a long, downward pointing curved serif, so that the figure looks like a tent just about to topple over in a strong wind from the left; "7"s have a horizontal cross bar in the middle.
On their own English "7"s and Continental "1"s can be quite similar.
Hybrids come from halfway between Dover and Calais!
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi all,
thanks for looking at this Flagon. A couple of answers.
There are no numbers on the stopper or neck.
Why Stourbridge ? why Pinwheel? Well, digging through a few of my books, it seems a low Flagon
Decanter like this is fairly uncommon. I found a few S & W and Webb Flagon decanters, c1880s,
and i think it was one in particular, in British Glass 1800-1914, Charles Hajdamach, plate 335 page 368
A decanter and stopper cut with pinwheel motif. Stevens & Williams, c 1895
Its very similar, ok, i know its not the same!
Frank , thanks for looking, i will join glass study.com :D
Its superbly finished, a polished base, every facet is polished, wonderful stopper, a long air bubble the length of the handle ,the cut spout, its just one of the nicest decanters ive handled, and generally, it was one of those old dirty items, that cleaned up so well, it nearly bought a tear to my eye ;)
If anyone has the above book, (Bernard, im sure you have!) have a look.
Where ever its from, i love it ;D
Andy
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It is definitely a really gorgeous piece! I don't blame you for loving it, and I know just what you mean about the pleasure of cleaning a dirty piece and finding a gem.
I have no clue who made your decanter, and it makes me curious not only about who made it, but about the whole question of attribution of cut glass in the UK and Europe in general. In the US it's usually necessary to find the exact pattern in a reference if you want to ID an unsigned piece, and even then it's sometimes sketchy because a lot of patterns were duplicated by multiple makers. Even the shape of the blank is sometimes useless because there were so many cutting houses that bought blanks from other companies (even if they, too, made glass).
I don't know, but it seems like rich cut glass was made by far fewer companies in the UK, is that safe to say? There were hundreds in the US during the peak of ABP.
oops, suppertime...
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... British Glass 1800-1914, Charles Hajdamach, plate 335 page 368
A decanter and stopper cut with pinwheel motif. Stevens & Williams, c 1895 ...
Andy — Agreed, some general similarities, but nothing like enough to attempt any sort of attribution.
Bernard C. 8)
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I was searching by keyword for a jug Roy posted some time ago and found this one. Andy, what a precious piece this is! A thought came to me of a lady in a hoop skirt, "draping" fabric and a big, fancy hat...definitely lots of charm and personality in this jug. How fortunate you are to have what appears to be the original stopper, undamaged.
I can't say whether it was made in America but wouldn't rule it out. I'll look through a 1900-ish Val St Lambert catalog I have as many of their cut patterns look like close relatives of ABP cut glass. Of well known American cutting houses, Straus and Dorflinger stand out as having had the most "draping" type designs.
I can't quite see what is on the "buttons" or hobs of the hobstars - are they plain or is there cutting on them?
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Wow Karen, glad you found this one to do some research on.
Andy, what does the base look like and is the stopper numbered with a matching number to the inside neck of the piece?
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No numbers on stopper or neck. Looks like there's a many-rayed star on the bottom, but hard to see it clearly.
Are hollow handles very common in ABP? And what about the shape of the stopper? I've seen a few ABP things with similar stoppers (Hoare and Dorflinger maybe?), but not many.
Hadjamach calls pinwheels what in America are known as hobstars. I don't know if this is an English term, or idiosyncratic to him. Does anyone else know?
I'm curious to see examples of Sowerby's cut glass, especially if it's anything like this. Can't afford to buy much of anything in the way of books/CDs now tho'.
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Kristi, I've had a few hollow handles, in fact I'm staring at a Hawkes pitcher that has one. The stopper is wonderful, there were many different stopper shapes that were cut to the pattern of the main piece.
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looks very bohemian to me !!