Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mrvaselineglass on March 09, 2008, 07:03:22 PM
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I have an old Biedermeier mug, circa 1840's, that has old-style Russian script on it, and am trying to find someone who can read it. If anyone could help, it would be greatly appreciated. The mug has two hearts, opposite the handle.
in color:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscript.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscript.jpg)
in black & white for better contrast:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscriptbw.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscriptbw.jpg)
and, the side view of the mug:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianmugside.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianmugside.jpg)
Mr. Vaseline Glass
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Looks as if it is cursive - I find it impossible to decypher.
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i think i am going to contact one of the paid translation services for Russian=English. I can get it done for a few bucks. I do appreciate you taking a look. It is my understanding that there was an old style of Russian cursive Cryrillic script used prior to about 1890, so I will take one translation service at a time. If they can't translate, I move on to the next. I showed it to the Russian Language professor at the University of Oklahoma (USA) a year or so ago, but the semester was about over and she said she would look at it over the summer, but never heard back from her. She said it was something she could do, but would not do it when I showed it to her. Mysteries like this are fun to crack, so I will keep at it.
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I may be able to help i have a friend who used to run the library in ST PETERSBURG I will see her in a couple of days and i will ask her to help.
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any and all help is appreciated!
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John & Ivo: Someone from another group that this was sent to believes it to be Serbian Cyrillic script. She said that the Serbian script was created in 1818 and officially adopted in 1868. She couldn't quite make all of it out, but the left-hand heart says something like "In memory..."; the first word in the second heart is "Direktor" (which can mean a variety of things, from headmaster to President.) It was used in most of the former Yugoslavia & Montenegro, although I think these days most people are switching to the Latin alphabet. It's also similar to the Macedonian version of Cyrillic script, but there are a couple of letters in this inscription that make Serbian more likely.
Dave
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Hi Dave, does this help? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language#Use_of_scripts
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No matter what it says Dave, its certainly a stunning glass.
Selina
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My correspondent says: "Looks like Russian but sounds Ukrainian or Serbian - could be Bulgarian too"
So the verdict is, not Russian.
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I have shown my friend, she also said it is not Russian, even if it were the old form she would understand it,she believes it is Serbian.
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Johnphillip:
I just now reversed the image, and took out all the background 'noise' so it is very clear cursive text. I looked at the Serbian alphabet on wikipedia, and all of them seem to match up. However, in trying to do even one word by cutting and pasting in the alphabet pieces into a Serbian to English translator, it still comes up with nothing. On the Wikipedia site, they show the cursive alphabet at the bottom of the page and all the characters seem to match.
If your friend can't help, I will most likely pursue a paid service.
anyway, here is a fresh image. I made sure I did not take out anything that was not etched (looking at it through a 5X loupe).
http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscriptbw.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/russianscriptbw.jpg)
Dave
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Dave — It has just occurred to me that, as the Rakow Research Library, Corning Museum of Glass has a policy of collecting glass-related resources world-wide, they must have some foreign language ability in-house, and access through the museum / library network to translation services for other languages. They may also appreciate high quality digital images and a complete description for archiving.
It must be worth trying an email, or, preferably, to stand out from the crowd, an old-fashioned letter plus CD. As a published author they must take you seriously.
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi Dave, i believe there may be a Serb or two in my local coffee bar i will see what i can do,just hope i dont get my face slapped if it says something naughty.
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Bernard: great Idea! I will give that a try if other avenues don't pan out.
Dave
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Sorry Dave no Serbs in the coffee shop, like policemen never there when you need one,on the way back i asked in the carwash, Romanians Albanians Hungarians Lithuanians Iranians and a few others but no b xxxxy Serbs.One person said the first word was one hundred,sounds right [centenary]?
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Hi Dave my son showed it to a Serb she said not Serbian and suggested it may be Bulgarian,
Here we go again,its beginning to get at me now but i am determined to solve it,or have you already solved it.JPH
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SPO MENC ODC GOSPOS
DIP KT OPKE TP EBGCKO VICE
Sure looks like a wedding cup, the partner on the left is from the Gospos family, a well known polish name. the rest makes no sense
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Hi,
I am reliably informed that this text is old Serbo-Croat, and part reads: Spomen od Gospod (then a surname) = A souvenir/token from Mr X.
Probably a lovers item, I will see if my friends can come up with the rest....
Regards,
Marcus
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What an interesting cup! Could you post a photo of the front? Is that raised bit applied, or is the whole thing molded?
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In the immortal words of Sgt. Schultz of Hogan's Heroes (1960's American TV comedy) fame, "I know nothink!", but I'll try my hand at the transliteration:
Spomench odch Gospos
Dir Ktorkeh Trebpuko Smus
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David! Fancy meeting you here!
He doesn't really know nothing.
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Kristi:
the heart shapes are neither applied, nor molded. The entire piece is cut glass. the glass was cut away around the heart shapes to leave those raised off of the surface of the mug. The handle is applied. Here is a link to front & side views.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/biedermeiermug2.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/biedermeiermug2.jpg)
I have written to a Serbian-to-English translation service, and no reply was received. Still hoping someone wanders by who can translate. I see we are getting closer, though! For some reason, I usually get updates when people post, but the last few I did not receive notification, so sorry on the late reply to the request to see a front view. The bottom foot is also very ornately cut.
What little history I know on this piece: I was the very determined high bidder on this piece (ebay) about 2 years ago. It cost me about $350 USD. The seller was absolutely overjoyed at the end price and I thought I had gotten a bargain, but there were a lot of other determined bidders too. The seller had found it in a thrift store in Vancouver, BC, Canada for $5 Canadian! This is the first annagelb/vaseline/uranium Biedermeier piece I have ever seen with an applied handle.
It resides in my small collection of other pieces from 1840's Bohemia. The tallest is 7", middle size is 6", tumbler is 4 1/2" tall. All of these have glass cut away to leave a high relief that was then used to cut designs into it. When I take pictures of this glass, I have to dial down the aperture considerably, or the uranium just overpowers the image. What amazes me about this is that they were cut with very crude cutting equipment and their lighting was either natural light or kerosene lamps. The only damage to any of the 4 pieces is 2 or 3 little rim chips on the mug. The three other pieces do not have as much as a fleabite on them. All have honest wear on the underside of the foot.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/1biedermeierthree.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/1biedermeierthree.jpg)
Dave (aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass)
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Riedel I assume?
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Ivo: that would be my guess too, but no way to prove or disprove. definitely 1840's Bohemian, and he was the biggest (or possibly, only) maker.
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I would have thought many Bohemian glasshouses could have produced this. Several makers of Biedermeier are discussed in Langhamer's Legend of Bohemian Glass, including Harrach in Novy Svet, who perfected a yellow uranium glass (and, incidentally, did some pressed glass in the same period - news to me!).
I thought about the shapes on the front being cut, but that would mean that the glass would be thicker near the handle, or as thick, anyway, as the glass is in the areas of relief. Or is that why the handle appears to stick out a little at the top before it starts curving? Hard to judge without handling it. Whew, how laborious, to cut all that away!
I wonder to what extent Bohemian glassmakers used "figured blanks," i.e. blanks in which part of the shape was formed in a mold so that less cutting was necessary.
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It was most likely mold blown, with some raised areas inside the mold, then beveled down when they cut it. the glass around the rim is the same thickness, and the handle would have to be applied while both the main portion and the handle were hot. There is evidence that the area at the bottom of the handle (where there is usually a big glob of glass) has been cut down to match the bevel of the area below where the handle attaches.
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Hmm, this piece of yours has gotten me curious about the construction of these puppies! I have a Biedermeier goblet, but never really thought about how it was made (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9590).
There must have been a big solid blob at the bottom of the parison to fill in the stem (whatever shape it was before cutting). Normally in a mold blown piece there would be an indentation on the inside corresponding with raised areas on the outside. Can you feel anything like that behind the raised areas of the bowl? Perhaps the glass is too thick to reflect it.
Looking at the cross-hatched parts, it seems like the grid is raised, rather than the tiny squares within the grid. Is that just a product of the photo?
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Kristi: the grid is raised on the outside, then there is cutting on top of the grid. I felt the inside of all of my pieces that have areas that are raised, and there is no indent on the inside of the cup, so that means that the piece was thicker and they cut back all the areas around the shields, grids, raised portions. I am familiar with mold blown that has a pattern or shape other than smooth and that you can feel an indent on the inside, opposite the raised areas. nothing like it on any of mine.
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I've stared at this and pondered it for quite a while now. From the way it appears to me, I think it's pressed. Now it may be appearing wrong, but hear me out.
The crosshatching - I'm afraid I still don't understand. Are the lines raised or cut back? Maybe it's an illusion, but to me they look raised. This would be extremely hard to do by cutting.
The sides of the glass look convex. Is that right? This, too, is very difficult and time-consuming to do by cutting, and it would have been necessary if "the piece was thicker and they cut back all the areas around the shields, grids, raised portions." I reckon maybe that's one reason why when you find a Biedermeier piece with areas cut in relief, you also find cut facets, like on my goblet. Much easier shape to cut. And when they are cut, the optics are excellent, with little distortion in the glass. Yours shows a fair bit of distortion.
Sorry! I'm not trying to insult your glass or anything. I think it's really cool if it is pressed. Chances are it was made at Novy Svet - well, maybe. Who really knows?!
But I could be seeing things wrong. You've got a better position from which to see its finer points.
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If it is pressed, all mold marks were ground off when it was made. I will shoot some close ups tomorrow when i have better light.
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Kristi: as promised, closeup shots of my 4 Biedermeier ANNAGELB pieces:
The photos related to these pieces
http://www.vaselineglass.org/1biedermeierthree.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/1biedermeierthree.jpg)
The piece on the left is TUMBLER, center is GobletTALL, and right is GOBLET, so they can be referred to in those names in the photos below.
The mug http://www.vaselineglass.org/biedermeiermug2.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/biedermeiermug2.jpg) is labeled MUG
First up: MUG
close up of the heart shapes, showing how the glass surrounding the hearts has been cut back to leave a raised surface. The words were then cut INTO the hearts. TWO views. in both views, you can see the long flowing crosshatched area that is to the outside of the heart shapes and it is clearly raised up from the surface. The hearts are also raised up from the surface of the main body of the mug.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugheartscloseup2.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugheartscloseup2.jpg)
http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugheartscloseup.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugheartscloseup.jpg)
lower portion of the applied handle, you can see how the knob was ground off to make it flow with the contour of the rest of the mug:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/muglowerhandlecloseup.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/muglowerhandlecloseup.jpg)
The top portion of the applied handle, showing how a thumb rest has been cut on the top of the handle.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugupperhandlecloseup.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/mugupperhandlecloseup.jpg)
TUMBLER: (height 4.5 inches)
The first shot is a close up of the upper raised portions, onto which designs were cut. If the areas were surface level, the cutter would not have been able to cut such intricate designs, as the wheel would have left the trailing edge on the body. By having a raised area, the cutting has a distinct stopping point.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/tumblercloseup1.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/tumblercloseup1.jpg)
This photo shows the ornate cutting on the side of the foot. These are also 'nodules' that have the surrounding areas cut back to leave a raised surface so intricate cutting can be done. If you look 'behind' the starburst cutting, you can see the level where the inside of the tumbler stops being open and the solid foot starts. The tight neck at the base of the tumbler expands outwards just below to make a larger opening than the narrow area just above it. This could not have been accomplished with a press, so the blank had to be mold-blown. You might have to refer back to the grouping photo at the top to see the narrowing of the tumbler, just above the foot.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/tumblercloseupfoot.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/tumblercloseupfoot.jpg)
GOBLET-TALL (The center one in the group shot above): height 7"
This is a close up of the medallions on the upper portion of the bowl. Again, raised areas (surrounding area has been cut back), so that intricate designs can be cut into the raised areas.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallmedallions.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallmedallions.jpg)
close up of the 'skirt', which is near the bottom of the bowl, on the outside, to show the depth of cutting:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallbowlskirt.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallbowlskirt.jpg)
underside of the foot, to show how deep the cutting had to go on the 'circle' cutouts around the edge (most likely, a very tough cut to make and to get them all the same size too!)
http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallfoot.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallfoot.jpg)
a close up of the top of the foot, to show the cut-out. I purposely photographed it with a reflection showing to both sides of the circle, so you could see the flat surface that is the top of the foot. At the center of the cutout, you can see a small sunburst. That is actually the cutting that is in the center of the underside of the foot, refracting through the glass and due to the curvature of the circle, it acts like a lens, making the circle smaller. just above the circle cut-out, you can see the same sunburst again, only larger, reflecting up through the flattened portions of the foot. the crosshatching pattern you see to either side of the circle cutout is also a reflection from the bottom side of the foot.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallfoot2.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/goblettallfoot2.jpg)
GOBLET (right side of the trio photo at top of this posting): height 6 inches.
Raised portions on outer surface of the bowl. This photo clearly shows how the glass was slanted a bit from the raised portion down to the smooth surface of the bowl, and then the cuttings applied on top of the raised medallions.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletmedallions.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletmedallions.jpg)
The bowl 'skirt' just above the stem:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletbowlskirt.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletbowlskirt.jpg)
a view of how the stem was cut:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletstemcutting.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletstemcutting.jpg)
and, two views of the underside of the foot. These photos show the 'table wear' scratchings from movement on a surface for the past 160+ years. I covered a bit more of the accessible lighting when I shot these two. One shows the color better, the other has more detail. The one on the left looks like it is actually a blue glass, but that is just a reflection of the black velvet backdrop I use to shoot the photos.
http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletfoot.jpg (http://www.vaselineglass.org/gobletfoot.jpg)
All comments are welcome!
Dave
aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass
p.s. there were some of these that were made in the mid-1930s and also some are being currently produced in the Czech Republic, but neither the 1930s or the contemporary versions are not as ornate on the cutting, and do not have a narrow stem on them. They are shaped more like ornate bulbous tumblers with a base that narrows, then expands to a foot. They also usually have a surface cutting that is figural in nature. I have a friend who has a couple of these from the 1930's that has German script and a swastika emblem on it.
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Woweeee. JP
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"I have a friend who has a couple of these from the 1930's that has German script and a swastika emblem on it."
Wow is right! What a collector's item.
Thanks for all the additional photos! I feel like I'm being a real pest. This intrigues me, though, because a week ago I wouldn't have thought Biedermeier pieces like these might be anything but entirely cut.
I just have this one question, I've asked it before, and even with the new photos I can be sure of the answer - photos have played tricks on me before with this. Are the straight miter cuts raised (do they stand out it relief, higher than the glass either side), or recessed into the glass? In some spots they seem to be cut into the glass, other areas not, for example in the photo I've drawn on below, where the arrows are pointing.
This is a key question, which is why I'm harping on it. At least some of them look raised to me. That would mean that some of the designs were cut into the mold, not into the glass. If it was molded, there's no reason it couldn't be cut as well. (obviously it was at the bottom of the handle attachment on the mug).
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Kristi
that tear drop-shaped medallion is raised off the smooth portion of the glass. In the photo link here:
http://www.vaselineglass.org/TUMBERMEDALLION.JPG (http://www.vaselineglass.org/TUMBERMEDALLION.JPG)
I have an arrow pointing at the top of the page that shows the border that runs all the way around the medallion. It is raised off the surface of the smooth portion by just a little over 1/16" inch.
The red areas, including those faceted sunbursts (or 'buttons') are the high points on the medallion. All high areas are marked in red, including the faceted areas between the 'buttons'. If you look at the areas directly adjacent to the buttons, you will see that those are beveled flat cuts, so each button is faceted on 8 sides, like an octagon stop sign shape. However, you will also notice that none are uniform and each one is different. On the top of each 'button', there is a little starburst that has been etched on top of each button. Again, no uniformity.
The blue lines show the deepest cut grooves so that the rest is beveled up to the adjacent areas marked in red. All areas not marked red or blue are slants going from the high points down to the bottom of each blue 'channel' cut. I am sure that is not official 'glass cutting terminology' but it describes it. An even more clear way to describe it.....the red areas are mountains, the blue areas are the valleys. All unmarked areas are slants going from the mountain to the valley below. none of the VALLEYS goes below the depth of the height of the raised medallion.
Hopefully, this makes it a lot more clear. It has been my experience that if a piece has a pressed pattern (like daisy and button), all of the buttons are uniform in shape, all 'valleys' are also uniform. The shallowest cuts are the little sunbursts on top of the button mountains. Those are also not uniform.
All of the medallions are raised up, which means all of the other glass was cut back and then smooth polished. None of the raised areas are indented on the inside (a typical sign of a mold-blown piece that is blown into a mold with an irregular patterned surface). The tumbler has a narrow area at the bottom that then expands into a wider area, so the piece was not made by the use of a plunger press.
This only leaves detailed cutting as an explanation as to how the cutting was done. The glass worker started with a thick blank, cut down all the areas to leave medallions around the surface, then detailed out the medallions to put a finish on the end product. The other pieces in the collection were made the same way!
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Thanks, Dave, you've been very patient with me! You've been very nice to take the time to explain things and add more photos. The handled one is the only piece that really had me questioning the technique, and it still seems a bit odd, but if you're convinced it's cut after all my hmmms and questions, that's good enough for me. Sorry I can't help you with any of your questions about it!
What a great quartet of annagelb Biedermeier you have there!