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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on April 28, 2008, 11:35:46 AM

Title: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
Post by: Bernard C on April 28, 2008, 11:35:46 AM
Images:-
  • Front (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9896)
  • Angled to show gilding (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9895)
  • Back (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9894)
  • Detail (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9893)
  • Relief detail (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9892)
  • Pontil mark (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9897)

  • A Burmese? style jug or ewer with some age to it, bought in the UK.   There is no significant reaction to my UV test lamp.   Note the height, exactly 8" (20.3cm).   There is some sharpness to the edge of the pontil scar.

    The butterfly has an almost invisible outer boundary, probably originally gilt, that has two thin tails, like a swallowtail.   The four wing spots are blobs of ruby glass.   The foliage around the butterfly comprises hand-painted stems to which were fixed (presumably using some sort of enamel or gold paste) tiny pieces of opal glass that may have partly melted during the process of firing on the decoration.

    The decoration is quite different to that produced at the Jules Barbe workshop for Thomas Webb, shown, for example, in Hajdamach Colour Plate 39 p317, and listed on pp433–4.

    So, where was it made, Mount Washington, Thomas Webb, or elsewhere, and when?    And who decorated it?

    Thanks for looking,

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Burmese ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on April 28, 2008, 11:55:34 AM
    I don't think this is Burmese - Burmese certainly gives a very strong reaction to a UV light and the colour doesn't look right - perhaps peach blow
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Bernard C on April 28, 2008, 12:18:27 PM
    Christine — Thanks.   I just managed to add the question marks before being timed out!

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on April 28, 2008, 02:44:06 PM
    Hi,

    I don't know who or when, but it's not Burmese or Peachblow, but Cased Glass. --- Mike
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on April 28, 2008, 07:33:53 PM
    According to Hajdamach Webb's peach glass (although this was amberina) was cased and there are similarities with this (http://www.antiques.dk.com/detail.php/Decorative%20Arts/Glass/American/Peachblow/Webb/10607916) although how good the ID is I don't know
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on April 28, 2008, 09:04:36 PM
    I don't know, 

    I have a lot of this cased glass myself and I have never seen any good, convincing old documentation yet that says it was ever marketed as Peachblow, just websites and online auction sellers making the claim is all.

    I have also been told that the Webb glass of this nature should produce a green glowing effect when exposed to a black light, because the inner white layer has uranium oxide in it's makeup.

    I wish I could say all of that wonderful stuff about my own pieces of this glass, but I still need better evidence to convince myself of it, not just a lot of people copying what each other say until it only looks like factual information from being repeated so many times by so many.

    Hope someone has some convincing documentation on it, for your piece and my glass too. --- Mike
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on April 29, 2008, 12:05:00 AM
    Burmese is never cased, but peachblow-type glass sometimes was.  And Christine's right, Burmese is always UV reactive because it contains uranium.

    (I believe in the link Christine provided, the Webb piece there is not really peachblow.  The site has other suspect identifications: their Wheeling peachblow shows two salt and pepper sets, only one of which is possibly correct.)

    According to Revi's Nineteenth Century Glass, Mt. Washington filed papers for the trade names "Peach Blow" and "Peach Skin," so other companies used different appellations.  Seems to me acceptable that for simplicity's sake people use "peachblow" for similar struck pieces, as long as they don't extend it to all pink shaded ware. 

    Webb's Peach Glass and Stevens and Williams's Peach Bloom shaded from yellow at the bottom to red at the top, so that counts them out.  Hobbs, Brockunier's Coral is similar.  Mt. Washington's Peach Blow is light greyish blue at the bottom.  Gunderson Pairpoint's Peach Blow is white or pink at the bottom, but seems like it's a different tone of pink from this (see these examples: http://www.brooksideartglass.com/indexlsa2.html)

    I think it's likely given the colors that this isn't a struck piece, just a shaded one.

    EDIT:  here's more info about peachblow:  http://www.collectics.com/education_peachblow.html
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on April 29, 2008, 12:44:39 AM
    Just in case nobody has ever noticed it; 

    some of Fenton's Burmese glass items are actually Burmese glass cased over a layer of custard colored glass. On some pieces the restruck areas are pink on the outside of the item only. As far as I know all old Burmese glass turned pink inside and out on the restruck areas. --- Mike
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on April 29, 2008, 04:02:42 AM
    Huh, I guess I was told wrong then about Burmese never being cased.  I don't know much about Fenton.  I just looked at a few dozen Fenton Burmese pieces on the 'net and none were cased.  Mike, is it possible you were seeing pink only on the outside because that's where it got hot enough to change color?  Some struck objects seem to be different colors on the inside and outside even when not cased.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on April 29, 2008, 03:26:26 PM
    Hello again,

    I didn't mean to imply that this is a consistent thing, plus one needs to see the right pieces and of course one needs to know to even look for it, since it's not advertized as an "Overlay" like a lot of Fenton's other overlay\cased glass is.

    Nobody told me about it, I just have a natural habit\tendency to look very closely at things and inspect the heck out of them, which is the only reason I noticed it.

    Here is a vase I dug out of a bin, sorry about the photo quality, it's not my best talent.

    http://i29.tinypic.com/29f8sia.jpg

    In person I can actually see where one color layer ends and another begins, it doesn't blend\fade from one color to another. I can even catch my fingernail on a slight ridge between the two colors. This may only be the case for items that have the optic? design on the body of the item, since that's where I have seen it, on 6 pieces I have like this. The rest of my plain body pieces look like I expect normal Burmese glass to look, pink inside and out on the areas where it was restruck.

    I might be missing something, but I don't see how glass less than an eighth inch thick  can be reheated and only one side of it heat up. Hope this helps to explain what I mean. --- Mike

    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on April 30, 2008, 02:38:39 AM
    Are you sure it's Burmese?  The colors are similar, but there's no shading to it, it looks like plain cased glass to me.  I've heard Fenton had a lot of trouble with their Burmese; maybe this is an alternative.  I imagine the pink rim was added.

    I know you hate the UV light thing, but does it all glow?
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Ohio on April 30, 2008, 04:26:07 AM
    To the best of my knowledge (with the possible exception of Fenton) real Burmese is not cased. Regarding Peachblow...if you follow the strict defination of Billings Peachblow Glass reference then the manufacturer had to have marketed the product under the name Peachblow or some derivative of the word "peach" for it to be considered Peachblow...they consider everything else pink cased glass. I'm am simply stating their reference, I am not saying I agree or disagree with their stance. As for the Fenton...just ask the Yahoo Fenton group what the formula, procedure is for Fenton Burmese...they will probably know & Jim Measell might even pop in to tell you. Ken
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: redheat4 on April 30, 2008, 07:01:27 AM
    Quote from Ruth Hurst Vose " 'Burmese' glass is a single-layered glass shading from opaque greenish-yellow to deep pink at the top. It was developed by the Mt. Washington Glass Company, New Bedford, Mass. Frederick S. Shirley patented his formula for Burmese in 1885 for the firm".

    " Frederick Shirley's formula for Burmese glass was patented in England in 1886. Thomas Webb & Sons of Stourbridge, purchased a licence to copy Burmese products".

    Rightly or wrongly I have always called your type of glass 'cased Satin' glass and assumed English Victoria.

    Ian
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on April 30, 2008, 01:52:06 PM
    krsilber,

    "I know you hate the UV light thing, but does it all glow?" LOL!

    I wouldn't waste the emotion of hate on glassware, I just saw the glowing thing as a novel gimmick when the fad began and like a joke that has been told too many times;   I just find it to be old and stale now.

    Anyway, yes;  it does do the glowing thing, it also has the Fenton label, plus a Fenton logo with a 9 for the 1990s pressed into the bottom and it was sold with a hang tag, which said Burmese Glass on it, with some history about Burmese Glass.

    My take and my own personal rule of thumb is;  is it's what the maker called it, no matter what the older glass makers did and no matter what the collectable glass book authors, sellers and collectors say.

    Of course I don't sell, so my rules are for my own collecting, which I try to improve on whenever I can and I prefer to keep glass making history as separate from glass collecting history as I can, since they are two different things and tend to cause confusion when mixed. --- Mike

    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: heartofglass on April 30, 2008, 02:00:15 PM
    Not Burmese of any type, this ewer is cased shaded pink glass circa 1880s & far more likely Bohemian than English.
    I have a selection of Burmese both Victorian Webb & modern Fenton & all of it is single layer, non-cased & contains uranium. Fenton has made "Burmese" type glass without uranium, they call it Lotus Mist & Blue Burmese.
    So I would look to researching Bohemian glass refiners for the decoration on this piece.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Bernard C on April 30, 2008, 04:30:36 PM
    Chrisine, Mike, Kristi, Ken, Ian, and Marinka — Thank you all for your interesting and informative replies.

    Let me first apologise.   It may appear rather strange to you all, but I have never even handled an example of Burmese glass, although I should have taken the opportunity when Arnoldo Toso showed me his small collection of old Webb and Mt. Washington pieces — there was a lot more there to see!   Hence it hadn't occurred to me whether or not Burmese was cased.

    My ewer is cased, actually three layers.   The inside layer, taking up about half the thickness of the glass, is an opaque white opal.   Then a layer of clear crystal.   And finally, a thin layer of ruby.   The effect of ruby shading to pink was achieved simply by stretching this outer layer during the blowing process, as with the vase you found, Christine (btw what wonderful dealer spin, saying almost nothing but most impressively), and a pair of large thorn vases, discussed here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2516.0.html), and also note my comments there about raw materials representatives spreading knowledge.   The oval cross-section body and round foot were formed in a shape mould, and you can just make out the mould line running up the narrow sides of the jug, showing as a slight bulge on the left of the foot here (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9897).

    Mike — checking with my UV tester in complete darkness does yield a pale apple green fluorescence.

    As for the decoration I had considered whether the applied pieces were possibly coral, before deciding on small pieces of opal glass.   You will understand my surprise when, browsing arount the Internet, I found references to coralene decoration associated with Burmese, discussed briefly here (http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/coraleneglass.html).   The opal pieces on my ewer are not beads, all of the same size, but chips of varying size.

    Quote from: heartofglass
    ... So I would look to researching Bohemian glass refiners for the decoration on this piece.

    Marinka — How?

    Bernard C.  8)

    ps Mike, nice to meet a kindred spirit, see here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2463.msg18229.html#msg18229).
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Ohio on April 30, 2008, 06:11:02 PM
    Mike: "My take and my own personal rule of thumb is;  is it's what the maker called it, no matter what the older glass makers did and no matter what the collectable glass book authors, sellers and collectors say"

    Yeah buddy....thats exactly the way I feel, especially when it comes to so called "Vaseline" glass. Uranium glass & reactive glass I can understand because at least it references the chemical composition. Ken
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on April 30, 2008, 08:29:08 PM
    Interesting that there's a layer of crystal (colorless) in there...must give a bit of a sense of depth to it.

    Tough one to pinpoint as to origin.  Bohemian makers did a lot of shaded work, trying to mimic Peach Blow and Burmese type glass.  The decoration doesn't look particularly Bohemian to me, though; seems more reminiscent of English work.

    "Coralene" - now there's another term I've gotten in a lengthy discussion about, as Ken will attest to.

    I can see several problems with using only the terms companies themselves used.  Not everyone knows the terms.  It's inconvenient to write out all the terms that mean basically the same thing (e.g. Peach Blow, Peach Glass, Peach Skin, Coral, Wild Rose for peachblow).  If you followed the rule strictly, it would mean you can't generalize when the maker is unknown.  And it can become very confusing!  It's just not practical to separate glassmaking history from the history of selling, collecting and writing because they are intertwined.  It's already difficult enough to communicate when words mean different things in US vs. UK English...add to that different terminology among the glassmakers, or at different points in the history of a single glassmaker, and it would cause all kinds of misunderstanding.  Why reject a term like "vaseline" when it has a long history and means a specific thing to many, many people, just because it wasn't used by a glassmaker?

    Bernard, you mention your comments about raw materials representatives spreading knowledge.  I disagree - glass companies often kept their formulas secret.  Sometimes only a single person was allowed to add colorants to a batch.

    (BTW, Hajdamach's description of American peachblow, "The 'Peach Blow' version made by American factories was identical to Locke's and Webb's glass in that they all used a base layer of cream coloured glass which was cased with the heat sensitive layer," is not correct.  Mt. Washington's Peach Blow and New England's Wild Rose were both single-layer. )

    Whew!  There's my two cents.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on May 01, 2008, 12:48:25 AM
    Kristi,

    "If you followed the rule strictly, it would mean you can't generalize when the maker is unknown.  And it can become very confusing!"

    Okay;  so many questions at once;  I suppose my answers are going to sound rather preachy, but keep in mind that my answers are about what I would do and how I feel about certain things. I am not evangelizing, so please keep that in mind if you read this.

    JMOho;  If I do not know who the maker is, then I simply admit to myself that  I don't know who the maker is, fact is fact and it's okay to not know who the maker is and then face the challenge of finding out sometime in the future. Making up information, based on what I know about something else in order to superficially say that something is what I wish it were or hope it is. For me to do that would be lying to myself and I  I believe a person who lies to themselves is worse than one who lies to others. I guess my point is;  take your time and enjoy collecting, find out what you can when you can, rather than allow a habit of instant gratification to rule your life and rob you of all of the enjoyment in collecting, not just the part of accumulating things.

    Still JMOho; To answer a bunch of your other questions;  Why remain stuck in a state of arrested development?

    Just because something made up or wrong has been the way things were done for so long is no reason to not accept the new found facts and begin to drop using all of the incorrect information. 

    Collecting, like every other subject should evolve and we should strive to get better at it, which means updating and discarding the old myths, made up names and misconceptions for something more accurate whenever possible. If one isn't striving to get better at collecting then all they are doing is accumulating things and that's not collecting, it's just hoarding.

    Selling is another thing and collectors should never allow sellers to make the rules for how collectors collect. What I am posting here is from a collector's point of view only and I suppose some sellers won't like it, because changing anything may mean more work for them, but work is what having a job means.

    "Why reject a term like "vaseline" when it has a long history and means a specific thing to many, many people, just because it wasn't used by a glassmaker?"

    Because Vaseline is the name of a greasy medicinal ointment for one and my other reason is that Vaseline Glass  and the whole goofy black light thing is more of a superficial fad thing, like Beanie Baby collecting and Disco. Sorry if my saying that steps on someone's sacred cow, but I don't worship cows and I'm just being honest, so again it's my own opinion, not my rule.

    Okay now;  The uranium oxide in the glass gives it it's color. It does nothing to improve the quality of the glass, the basic glass making ingredients, their purity etc., are what determine that. Flowers in a vase made of this glass do not last longer, food served on a dish made of this glass does not taste any better and does not go stale any slower. I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to. The point here is;  the item is glass and the glass was not made out of Vaseline, but silica etc., so the term Vaseline Glass itself is inane and only makes those who use the name sound rather uneducated, so what better reason to finally get around to rejecting such a swap-meet term and improving our glass speak vocabulary.

    Yes;   collecting and learning it often is difficult, but that's what makes it all worth doing. Otherwise one may as well buy and collect Franklin Mint, Bradford Exchange and or the products of any other company who decides for you that their wares are collectables.

    Ready, Aim, Fire! lol! --- Mike

    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Ohio on May 01, 2008, 02:23:53 AM
    Kristi...yes we've had a discussion or two pertaining to "Coralene" which was enjoyable as our most of our dicussions. I admit I have a rather prejudicial view to the term "Vaseline" when it applies to glass on our side of the pond. The Europeans in my opinion have always been far more accurate using the term "Uranium" glass than we have in the US. At least they accurately recognize something regarding glass chemistry while we on the other hand recognize something our Mothers (well mine anyway) shoved up our nose when we had a cold to prevent our skin cracking.

    I do not care if the term is catchy or whether or not its widely accepted & I cringe whenever I hear any US glass manufacturers of the Depression of Elegant eras colors referred to as Vaseline. Not a single solitary US manufacturer of those eras referred to any of their colors as Vaseline. The Vaseline crowd seems determined that only those colors that are yellow/green should be considered because they are so infactuated with the reaction when in fact colors such as Cambridge's Willow Blue which also had Uranium Oxide in the formula glows almost as brightly as their defined yellow/green colors. Here is what you will not find...you will not find many (if any) members of numerous National US glass manufacturer collector groups (insert names here) refer to any of their manufacturers colors as vaseline, therefore it is inaccurate to use vaseline as a primary descriptive noun regarding US glass manufactured during the Depression or Elegant periods.

    My opinion only of course although it is I do believe shared by more than a few. Ken

     
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 01, 2008, 02:31:45 AM
    (I wrote this before reading Ken's post)

    Mike, you don't sound preachy, you sound condescending.

    Who suggested making up information?  I certainly didn't, nor would I!  Your comments don't "answer a bunch of my questions," they aren't even pertinent to the points I raise.

    I only asked one question, so I will address your response about uranium glass.  Uranium is just one component of color, and uranium glass can come in a multitude of colors, so using "uranium glass" as a stand-in for "vaseline glass," which does describe a color, doesn't work.  Companies used a variety of names to describe their colors that mean something besides (or in addition to) the actual color:  Alexandrite, Canary, Moongleam, Dawn, etc.  Does using those terms sound inane and uneducated?
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 01, 2008, 02:43:38 AM

    ... The Vaseline crowd seems determined that only those colors that are yellow/green should be considered because they are so infactuated with the reaction when in fact colors such as Cambridge's Willow Blue which also had Uranium Oxide in the formula glows almost as brightly as their defined yellow/green colors.  My point exactly!  "Uranium" doesn't describe a color, "vaseline" does.  Here is what you will not find...you will not find many (if any) members of numerous National US glass manufacturer collector groups (insert names here) refer to any of their manufacturers colors as vaseline, therefore it is inaccurate to use vaseline as a primary descriptive noun regarding US glass manufactured during the Depression or Elegant periods.  By this reasoning we shouldn't refer to any color any other way than how the manufacturer that made it did.

    I'm no collector of vaseline glass, I couldn't care less what people call it.  But I think the reasoning behind rejecting its use is faulty.

    My opinion only of course although it is I do believe shared by more than a few. Ken

     

    Regarding Mike's Burmese vase:  not cased.  It was blown in a diamond optic mold, struck, and blown into the final mold.  The rim was struck and folded over, creating a crisp edge.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Frank on May 01, 2008, 09:09:34 AM
    So who did initiate the term Vaseline in its present usage? In the 80's (dealing days) I came across it used to describe opal glass and deep blue bottles used to contain Vaseline. It was never a very meaningful name for me and it was not my area. I always remember being confused by it - only since GMB days have I seen discussion to define it more narrowly.

    Give me an S&W Intagliod Caraffe any day  ;) Using original makers terms and spellings adds to the complexity but it has its limitations. Generic terms are inevitably going to remain a part of glass collecting and from time to time they will change. But within dedicated groups of glassies - Frogs, Carnival etcetera, change will be resisted.

    Assumptions about US/UK variations can also be taken apart, for example, Jugs vs. Pitchers are assumed to be such a variation but both terms were used within both markets by manufacturers in both countries.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on May 01, 2008, 02:03:28 PM
    Kristi,

    preachy, condescending, patronizing, snobby, lordly...  it's all semantics and I agree with you, which is why I mentioned that it may sound preachy. Of course it couldn't be that I'm just not good at expressing myself in a hearts, flowers, (((hugs)))  and smiley face way. Naw!!! I absolutely have to be only that which is interpreted by someone else.  I am well use to that happening and it's okay with me who isn't out to conquer the world and is not running for any office.

    Anyway;  I did the best I could to answer your questions and maybe I misunderstood you or maybe you really don't want an answer, but just want to argue instead. If there is something you really don't understand, if I missed the point you were attempting to make or just have another question then you could simply ask me about it.

    "Who suggested making up information?  I certainly didn't"

    Who suggested you were making up information?  I certainly didn't. I was talking to you about collecting in general and I stated that in my last post, so you can ignore it and take it personally if you like, bit it's you who added that extra baggage.

    "Companies used a variety of names to describe their colors that mean something besides (or in addition to) the actual color:  Alexandrite, Canary, Moongleam, Dawn, etc.  Does using those terms sound inane and uneducated?"

    I totally agree with that statement. My point was that the maker's did not add the word Glass to the color names and that's because the color was not the type of glass it was, it was only the color of the glass. and the fancy names were for nothing more than marketing purposes.

    If you do not care to do any more than you are doing then don't do it. Like I also stated in my last post;  I am not evangelizing anything, I am simply and openly stating my own thoughts and feelings is all, so any more made of it belongs solely to the individual making more of it than what it is.

    Well;  I don't want to waste any more space here or more of anyone's time, so I'm moving on to try and learn more and or try to help anyone else who wants to do the same.

    --- Mike
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Ohio on May 01, 2008, 02:08:54 PM
    Kristi we will just have to agree to disagree. " My point exactly!  "Uranium" doesn't describe a color, "vaseline" does." The reason the term Vaseline was invented/coined in the first place was because Uranium/salts/oxides, etc. were most predominately used in glass formulas that produced the yellowish or yellowish green coloration & it isn't the color of the glass that infatuates people, its the "glow" when its introducted to an outside light source. Uranium Oxides were used in a variety of colors although admittedly later in terms of production eras, blues, greens (without a hint of yellow), etc. therefore the term is vaseline is restrictive when used to describe glass that reacts when its Uranium content is exposed to the outside light source, it ignores the fact that the basic chemical structure that is used in the batch produces the "glow". To ignore & totally disregard this fact & base it solely on the end color of the glass produced is rather pointless not to mention inaccurate. I would suggest  the term Uranium reactive glass is more appropriate. To embrace the term vaseline to describe a simple chemical reaction & limit it to only glass of a certain specific color is simply not scientifically valid.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: butchiedog on May 01, 2008, 02:17:39 PM

    Oooops!  I had some unfinished business here, so one more post.

    Bernard C,

    I'm sorry I seem to have inadvertently derailed this discussion and should have started my own thread. 

    From what you have described I suggest you look into Webb or Stevens & Williams. I don't mean that as a positive ID, just that those are the names I most frequently see that kind of glass, with the description you shared attributed to. Wish I had better to share with you, especially after unintentionally, but still carelessly hijacking your thread, I apologize for that. --- Mike
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Ohio on May 01, 2008, 02:55:36 PM
    Yes I too must apologize Bernard. Kristi & I have a habit of continued ongoing discussions & in responding I sometimes forget that the original post gets trampled upon. Nasty American habit so curtail my posting to your original thread.   Ken
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Bernard C on May 01, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
    Mike & Ken — Grateful thanks, but no need to apologise for the way this topic went off the subject of my ewer, which was down to me as much as to any of the individual contributors.   Despite having used this message board and its predecessors for more years than most, I find that I am still unable to predict when a side issue will return to topic and when it will swamp the whole thread.

    Anyway, I think we've swamped this one, good and proper, in relation to my ewer.   I was already planning Part II, later today, as the light here is too good for photography to miss at present.   I will start it with acknowledgements, a resumé, and a plea to stay on topic!

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 01, 2008, 10:34:19 PM
    Boy, that's pretty bad when you have to start a new thread because it gets so derailed by other topics!  I've been derailing a lot of threads lately, it seems, or at least participating in it.  My bad!  I'm on a semantics/terminology kick, and there are so many opportunities to go astray!  Add to that my history of debating with Mike and Ken, and I'm hopeless.  Sorry, Bernard!


    So who did initiate the term Vaseline in its present usage? In the 80's (dealing days) I came across it used to describe opal glass and deep blue bottles used to contain Vaseline. It was never a very meaningful name for me and it was not my area. I always remember being confused by it - only since GMB days have I seen discussion to define it more narrowly.

    Wow, I actually found a credible reference for an early date of the term!  I'm astonished.  A quote from this site: http://www.go-star.com/antiquing/vaseline_glass.htm
    "There was also a new petroleum ointment on the market during this time period called vaseline, and the formula for the jelly at that time was the same color as this soda-lime formula of yellow glass, so coincidentally, people started calling the yellow glass vaseline glass. The oldest reference I have found in print is from N. Hudson Moore's book, Old Glass: European and American (c. 1924). On page 349, she writes, 'All the pieces shown in figure 207 are in this royal purple and canary yellow, which, by the way, no real collector would ever call vaseline, a dealer's term.' "

    Those sellers again, always screwing things up, eh, Mike?


    Give me an S&W Intagliod Caraffe any day  ...and I'll show you a company capitalizing on the popularity of the term "intaglio"!  More marketing maneuvers.  ;) Using original makers terms and spellings adds to the complexity but it has its limitations. Generic terms are inevitably going to remain a part of glass collecting and from time to time they will change. But within dedicated groups of glassies - Frogs, Carnival etcetera, change will be resisted.

    Assumptions about US/UK variations can also be taken apart, for example, Jugs vs. Pitchers are assumed to be such a variation but both terms were used within both markets by manufacturers in both countries.  Is there a difference in meaning, or are they synonymous?


    Kristi we will just have to agree to disagree. " My point exactly!  "Uranium" doesn't describe a color, "vaseline" does." The reason the term Vaseline was invented/coined in the first place was because Uranium/salts/oxides, etc. were most predominately used in glass formulas that produced the yellowish or yellowish green coloration & it isn't the color of the glass that infatuates people, its the "glow" when its introducted to an outside light source.  "Vaseline" was presumably coined because the color looked like Vaseline, which to my knowledge never glowed.  The fact that the glass glows is a separate issue.    Uranium Oxides were used in a variety of colors although admittedly later in terms of production eras, blues, greens (without a hint of yellow), etc.  Uranium was used in yellow and green glass beginning in 1830   therefore the term is vaseline is restrictive when used to describe glass that reacts when its Uranium content is exposed to the outside light source, it ignores the fact that the basic chemical structure that is used in the batch produces the "glow". To ignore & totally disregard this fact & base it solely on the end color of the glass produced is rather pointless not to mention inaccurate.  This is no more pointless or inaccurate than calling purple glass "amethyst" rather than "manganese." I would suggest  the term Uranium reactive glass is more appropriate. To embrace the term vaseline to describe a simple chemical reaction & limit it to only glass of a certain specific color is simply not scientifically valid.

    Who suggests "vaseline" describes a chemical reaction?  That's what I don't understand - why you insist that the term has to have something to do with the chemistry of the glass, rather than simply with its qualities, one of which is that it glows in UV light.  Few other color names have anything to do with their chemistry.  Do you have the same objection to Alexandrite, one quality of which is that it changes colors under different lights (at least Heisey's and Moser's did; I don't know about Webb's)?

    Uranium must impart qualities to glass beyond the fact that it glows under a black light, or it wouldn't have been used so successfully for so long before the advent of UV bulbs.  Much uranium glass I've seen is a beautiful, rich color.  Is it so hard to imagine that people like yellow uranium glass for reasons other than the fact that it glows?  Besides, the fact that it does glow I find pretty cool, but then I like seeing my colorless manganese glass under UV light, too. (Mike - it's ridiculous to suggest I like glowing glass because it's a fad; there are those of us who take an intellectual interest in the chemistry of glass.  Not that you care, but I find your generalizations offensive.)

    Anyway, enough of this!
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on May 02, 2008, 06:58:05 AM
    Quote
    Uranium must impart qualities to glass beyond the fact that it glows under a black light, or it wouldn't have been used so successfully for so long before the advent of UV bulbs.  Much uranium glass I've seen is a beautiful, rich color.

    Actually unless your uranium glass is a rich glowing canary it can often be hard to tell why such an expensive ingredient was used. I have hundreds of pieces that aren't canary, some of them have a luminescence if the light is right or a yellow cast to the green, others are just plain green (as an example Hazel Atlas Royal Lace), or in two cases grey (both milk glass). Many of my bits weren't expensive when new (for example, some of the table ware and the dressing table sets) and they certainly wouldn't have been seen to their full glory in the poor lighting conditions in early 20th century working to middle class homes. So I don't really understand the point of using it in many cases, and that's what fascinates me - the diversity of the type and quality of things it was used in and the fact that you can't tell until you get your UV light out.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Leni on May 02, 2008, 07:51:31 AM
    But there IS UV in sunlight!  So you WILL see a reaction - particulary at dawn and dusk - in your uranium glass, without a UV torch!   :o 

    I can only conclude that this reaction was observed, and that was why uranium salts were used in this type of glass - to exploit that.  Otherwise, as you say, Christine, why use such an expensive ingredient  :-\   
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: heartofglass on May 02, 2008, 03:41:47 PM
    I agree, Leni. I have noticed the u.v phenomenon occurring naturally in my home early in the morning & at twilight on uranium-containing glassware. It really does glow from that extra red in the spectrum that is visible at these times. In fact, the phenomenon is exaggerated by the fact I have pink curtains. When that morning or twilight light glows through the pink fabric onto the uranium glass (both the clear and opaque custard type) it brings out the green glow in the glass.
    It even occurs on the seemingly pure white glass that contains uranium too.
    Bernard, I still believe this item to be Bohemian. As for glass refiners, there is a decent list in the Truitt's first book on Bohemian glass. Pattern books & catalogues, if you are fortunate enough to find/access them may help with an i.d on the design. It is quite distinctive, especially since it involves applied frit decoration.
    (I am sorry to hear that you do not have any Burmese, Bernard, it is one of the truly great glass types, quite magical to behold in person. I hope that you will have some come your way sometime. I am fortunate to have 5 pieces of the original Webb, several modern Fenton pieces & one mystery item that is probably American & recent but not Fenton.)
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on May 02, 2008, 05:58:32 PM
    Quote
    the fact that you can't tell until you get your UV light out.

    What I actually meant was "the fact that you can't always tell until you get your UV light out." A great many of my pieces look fabulous in the right daylight, but some you'd be really hard put to tell under the most suitable of natural lighting conditions.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 02, 2008, 11:13:51 PM
    Oh, I'm glad to hear about that from you three!  I've asked others whether they notice the same thing - their glass glowing at dawn and dusk - and never really got a very good answer.  I've only had a few pieces of uranium glass, mostly green, and I thought I saw it glow a bit, too.

    Even apart from the fact that it can glow without a special bulb, I think it's a really nice colorant.  When considering the expense of using it there are a lot of unknowns.  It might not have been so expensive relative to other colorants back when it was common, and it's possible it was easier to work with or had some other effect on glass quality that we (or I, anyway) are unaware of.  Otherwise it's hard to imagine why it was so common in green Depression glass, which by and large was inexpensive.

    Has anyone come across any advertising that mentions its glowing properties?

    ON TOPIC:  The shape of Bernard's piece is really bugging me because it looks so familiar, but I can't place it.  I've looked through Truitt's vol. 1 and couldn't find anything similar in terms of shape or decoration.  To me the style is more delicate, with finer lines, than typical Bohemian enamel work - but of course, that varied widely.  It reminds me of some Mt. Washington glass, but I haven't found a match.  I do have something very similar that was attributed to Mt. Washington in an archive of glass photos I've gleaned from the internet, but it's hard to know how good the attribution is.  I wish I could post it!  The style of decoration is the same, right down to the addition of bits of glass.  ...Just found another MW-attributed one in my photos that has some of the same decor.  Maybe there's something to it!  I'll go look at my CMOG photos now.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 02, 2008, 11:46:44 PM
    Hmmm, I wish I'd looked into Mt. Washington before!  My Corning photos weren't particularly elucidating, though they do show a somewhat similar use of glass beading.  I'm attaching a blurry photo - I know it's not the same, but there are the round red beads as well as some odd-shaped ones.  Also attached is a photo of MW Burmese and Peach Blow just for a sample of their work.

    More evidence:  I found a photo in Avila's Pairpoint Glass Story that shows a vase that looks to me like a perfect match color-wise.  Although it's shown with their Pearl Satin Glass (MOP), it doesn't have air traps.  In the section about MOP it says they used three layers, opal inside, then colored, then crystal (colorless).  However, on the piece shown next to the good color match it looks to me like the crystal is in the middle layer.

    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Bernard C on May 15, 2008, 06:07:48 AM
    Another similar piece, probably by the same maker, see http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21310.0.html

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 15, 2008, 06:22:31 AM
    Another similar piece, probably by the same maker, see http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21310.0.html

    Bernard C.  8)

    Hmmm, I think would be jumping to conclusions to say it's the same maker.  Compare the bottoms.  Bernard's is much more uniform in color than Andy's.  Looks to me like the way they were made is somehow different.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: krsilber on May 19, 2008, 05:11:56 AM
    This is Ken's comment from Andy's "little peachblow vase" thread:
    "I'm not inclined toward Bernard's Peachblow vase being Mt. Washington in color or form. Mt. Washington Peachblow interiors are peach shading to white or simply peach. Mt. Washington did not use crystal handles on either Burmese or Peachblow, the handles were the color of the product & finally the Ewer shape of Bernard's piece is not representative of Mt. Washington shapes. The Sisk reference "Mt. Washington Art Glass" which is considered the Mt. Washington bible (primarily because of so many art glass/Mt. Washington contributors) shows many examples of color & form for Peachblow in the 270 pages."

    I don't think it's Mt. Washington Peachblow either.  I think it's MW Rose.  I don't have anything like your book, but the shaded Rose shown in Avila is dead-on.   Do you mean the shape isn't one of theirs, or you don't think it's in their style?  Does the book show all the shapes?  Wow, that would be a nice reference to have!  Does it have cut glass in it as well?

    One reason I think it's Mt. Washington is the style of decoration.  Fine, delicate painting and the use of odd-shaped pieces of glass as accent.  But maybe that was used by other makers and I just haven't seen it?

    Ken, would you please start a thread with your crayfish vase?  I'd be intersted to see if anyone knows who dunnit.  I've seen a few great crayfish-themed pieces in the last year (just saw another in a book I was leafing through), and I always think of yours.
    Title: Re: Burmese? ewer with enamel and gilt decoration — Id & date please
    Post by: Bernard C on July 18, 2009, 05:02:45 AM
    By the same glass house and decorator and in the same time frame see topics:-

  • Crying over spilled vases!! (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,25237.0.html)
  • Cased Glass Rose Bowl Id Help Needed (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,27574.0.html)

  • Bernard C.  8)