Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: tropdevin on May 01, 2008, 03:33:43 PM
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If the seller is correct in saying that this paperweight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=310046199293&item=310046199293) has a Baccarat signature, then it is a fake, as the paperweight is quite clearly a Murano.
Alan
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But it's not theirs, Alan. They're selling it for somebody else. All they do is provide the pictures and description. And presumably the description is accurate. The weight, they say, is 'signed Baccarat'. Presumably ebay won't want to know, as the description would appear to be accurate.
Are you going to tell the seller it's a Murano weight, so that they can pass the information on to the owner that you think the signature has been faked? I wonder what they will do? :huh:
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Of course, someone could always produce something like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260234186779 which a kind soul from the WF forums has produced!
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In the brighter image of the underside of the canes (central underside section) an etched "baccarat" siganture can be seen - but only just. So the description ties up with the weight. But yes, it's a Murano item.
Anyone know of another example of that weight type in a reputable website that the seller can be directed to for comfirmation?
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Hi Leni
I'm not sure that selling for someone else exempts you from all (or any) responsibility - it does not work for auction houses, and it would not work for me if I advertise a cheap print in the newspaper as a Michelangelo original, and then claim " Sorry. Nothing to do with me Guv - I was selling it for a mate." You run the advert on eBay, you defend the statements in it. I don't see a court going any other way.
Placing 'spoiling' adverts might be helpful, but do the buyers of the dodgy items keep a keen look out for similar items? I suspect not. My elderly mother - Bless her little cotton socks - bought an 'original Lowry industrial landscape' off eBay. It may be a genuine Lowry - the jury is still out - but she did not go searching for others, to see if there was guidance about fakes. The idea it might be a fake had not crossed her mind. And that is a major point in trying to address the sale of fakes- the gullible punter.
I don't want to see people fall for scams. There is a German eBayer who regularly sells Baccarat millefiori 'design' paperweights, that are modern Chinese. He sometimes gets serious prices from them from unsuspecting, naive buyers. I have emailed him several times, but guess what, he is not interested in replying. I have reported him to eBay - deafening silence.
What else can you do?
Alan
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do the buyers of the dodgy items keep a keen look out for similar items? I suspect not.
Collectors (of Whitefriars glass and possibly of Baccarat weights, too) may well search every day for the items they collect. I know I do. If they enter the words "Drunken Bricklayer" in an ebay search they will see the warning and learn how to distinguish between the real thing and the fakes. Sadly, first-time buyers who just see a fake and think they are getting the real thing at a bargain price may not benefit from this warning, but WF folk do also take it upon themselves to email and warn those who bid on the Bricklayers we KNOW to be fakes as well!
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If the bids don't go through the roof, that's a really nice Fratelli Toso.
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But how far is it spoiled by a fake mark?
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I don't know how a fake mark affects value. For me it makes it more interesting actually.
I would think the small chip the seller mentions as affecting the value more.
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Is this paperweight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=170216433138&item=170216433138) a Baccarat? The canes look rather like Caithness ones. Or am I getting obsessive....?
Alan
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Hi Alan, it looks like a Caithness Poinsettia to me... :spls:
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Is it just me or does the seller of this last weight often appear as the seller of weights questionnably marked Baccarat ?
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That's definitely Caithness. I have a shamrock weight the the identical canes.
The bottom looks like it was ground a bit to remove the caithness sig.
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Has anybody actually had one of these in their hands to examine? It might be worthwhile getting hold of one to actually see what has been done to it, ie whether the signature is sandblasted or acid-etched and also to see whether the bottom has been ground or not. I had a look at the sellers other items. Does anybody have a catalogue reference for those caskets? I know Baccarat do a lot of contract work, but they didn't jump off the screen screaming Baccarat at me! ;)
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Hi All,
The weight is a Caithness Mini Pointsettia, and a second quality one at that.The proper ones were facetted if I remember rightly.The ring of canes are of the design we knew as "No' 10" cane;for no other reason than it was the tenth "single pull" millefiori design that Harry Mckay and I devised. This was back in the early eighties when we did the original canes for the Lampwork/millefiori studio which I started up in 1983. we continued to use that pattern, and some of the other original numbers, right up to the day we closed the Perth Glasshouse.these included no's 12,14 and 16 cane design,which most commonly were used for the Luckenbooth design.
Allan
P.s The flower would of ,probably, been made by either myself or Rosette Fleming.
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Presumably someone will be emailing the seller (or sending a message via the Ebay system) explaining that this is not a Baccarat paperweight?
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Not much point. This is the usual "Baccarat" vendor. Any messages tend to be ignored by the vendor and ebay. See postings passim
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I don't know how a fake mark affects value.
The general impact of fakes is to reduce the value of genuine items as it creates uncertainty.
Not helped when people start paying as much for identified fakes as for some of the real thing as has happened with the PY fakes vs. Low end PY weights! An effect which makes it attractive to make more fakes! Curiosity is fine but best assuaged with pictures of the fakes then competing for them.
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I reported this item as a counterfeit. I fully expect ebay to do nothing and for the auction to run its course.
As usual.
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Not much point. This is the usual "Baccarat" vendor. Any messages tend to be ignored by the vendor and ebay. See postings passim
From my experience, if you want to stop this sort of thing you need an audit trail. In the UK if you were to report it to trading standards, the first thing they are going to ask is whether you approached the seller to point out a misattribution and see whether they were prepared to change it. I would imagine the same would be expected in Houston by the relevant authority.
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http://www.consumeraction.gov/texas.shtml
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/consumer/index.shtml
Over to our US members!
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I too have reported it to eBay as counterfeit, and also emailed the seller, pointing out it is fake, and asking for a close-up image of the mark so I can run an article on the recent spate of fake Baccarat weights in the next PCC Newsletter.
I too expect no response from eBay or the seller...
Alan
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Would it be for Allan (or Rosette) to complain about their work being passed off as another makers'? Or is it up to Baccarat to claim the use of their mark on a Caithness weight is 'passing off' in the legal sense?
Anyway, I see the seller has ended the auction.
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After my last post I wrote to the seller asking if they do part-time acid etching in their garage. Still no response.
It might be a good idea for Allan to report to Ebay, but he's too busy right now preparing for Wheaton.
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Hi, It would be Caithness that would have to complain as we just worked for them ,so technically it is their design and work that is getting used not mine or Rosette's.
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Presumably the new owners of Caithness, then. Who may or may not wish to be bothered :-\
Good luck at Wheaton, BTW. Wish we could be there! :D
Leni xx
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I think the various critical comments to the seller and reports to eBay worked...the ad was pulled - so well done all!
Alan
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But what to do if the 'acid etching in the garage' goes on? :huh: :-\
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I suggest we keep up the pressure - both emails to the seller, and reports of fraudulent activity to eBay. We always have the 'spoiler advert ' option, too.
(I typed 'adveet' instead of 'advert' by mistake initially; it looks very Dutch! Do you drink it, or is it a verb?).
Alan
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I think that this 'Baccarat' (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=170217057918&item=170217057918) is probably just mistaken identity!
Alan
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I think that this 'Baccarat' (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=170217057918&item=170217057918) is probably just mistaken identity!
Alan
...and where does the mark come from????
Also the original crimped weight on this string is intresting....cant remeber seeing one of those before!