Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Germany => Topic started by: tigerchips on August 05, 2005, 07:35:30 PM
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Im not sure what this is but I've seen similar glass described on ebay as Walther glass.
I can imagine it being a beautiful lamp when the original shade is present.
Is it worth selling if it is damaged and with no shade :?:
here's the picture.
http://tinypic.com/a1k0at.jpg
I have a large pressed glass Art deco sailing ship on Ebay. It's the same colour as the lamp base and it's frosted too.
I've been buying and selling antique's and collectables for 5 years now and i've never seen one like it before.
Any help would be much appreciated. :)
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Hi Tigerchips
I have had a look through various Walther catalogues from 1928 to 1965 and neither the lampbase nor the sailing ship appears in them at all. Walther did make a couple of ships but these were galleons and not like yours
Regarding your items on Ebay ... the tray most certainly is as you ascribe but again neither the candlesticks nor the ring tray appears in these catalogues. Can you advise why you think the c/sticks and pin tray are Walther.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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I presumed the candlesticks were Walther because two different "eBay Sellers" described them as such. Their candlesticks are identical to mine but are different in colour (light Pink, light Blue). The ring holder is also described by another eBay seller as Walther (it is green like mine).
I haven't had any emails to say that they aren't Walther. :?
Perhaps somebody out there might know :?: :)
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I presumed the candlesticks were Walther because two different "eBay Sellers" described them as such. Their candlesticks are identical to mine but are different in colour (light Pink, light Blue). The ring holder is also described by another eBay seller as Walther (it is green like mine).
I haven't had any emails to say that they aren't Walther. :?
:)
Hi
Unfortunately a number of sellers on Ebay will add any name they think might help sell their item. Misattribution is pretty rife with some bordering on the rediculous.... It becomes a bit of a vicious circle where one person gives something a name and then someone else picks it up and propogates it further... in some respects in the abscence of any other corroborating information this is what you have done as well... and with all due respect why would you question it to be otherwise.
Regarding not receiving emails refuting the attribution ...well not many people appear to bother... but again we are back to the sellers who do nothing to correct their listings even after having been given direct proof that their listing is incorrect.... I know because I have advised some sellers only to see it totally ignored.
The catalogues I have are comprehensive for the period and I can only repeat that the items pointed out to you are not contained within those publications....... not 100% proof.... but not far off.... Without wishing to sound pompous I am the someone out there who might know because I have a very particular interest in Walther of this period.... but I'm not infallible either.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Any chance of seeing the candlesticks?
Glen
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The candlesticks, tray and ring tray I would say are definitely from the Walther 'Nymphen' set! (I had a set myself and sold all but one pot which was chipped and the tray, which had a repaired crack :( However, I have now obtained a perfect tray! :D I love this design! :shock: :D )
AFAIAA, the mermaid candlesticks came in two versions, one with both arms raised and one with only one arm raised.
I have seen this set in copies of 'Millers Guide' described as both 'Walther' and 'Czech' and I queried this with a gentleman (whose name I am sorry to say I have forgotten :oops: ) at Broadfield House Glass Museum, where they have examples of this set displayed. He informed me that although they are frequenlty described as 'Walther', the moulds were apparently passed around in the German / Czech area and they could be attributed to several glass houses around at the time they were made! :shock: :roll:
His view was that the 'Walther' attribution was as valid as any other, therefore I have always described them as Walther!
Tigerchips, I would be happy to see these descibed as Walther 'Nymphen' or Mermaid on ebay, and I don't think many people (well, other than Gareth :P :wink: ) would be unduly worried about that attribution.
Gareth, if we were being pedantic (who, us? :shock: :wink: ) I suppose we could question the accuracy of the attribution but, IMHO, if Broadfield House are happy with it, so am I :D
Leni xx
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OK, I've found the candlesticks and all the rest of tiger's pieces on eBay.
Yes, the dresser tray and the candlesticks are Walther's Nymphen. Yes, they are Walther - the tray (named "Nymphen") is illustrated in the 1936 Walther catalogue - made in rose, green (prob vaseline) and blue. I also have most parts of the set.
I'm not sure that I accept fully what Broadfield House said about the items being made hither and thither. It's true that one can see items in several maker's catalogues of the period - eg Brockwitz pieces in Walther catalogues and Riihimaki catalogues. Same items in both Bernsdorf and Walther catalogues. But without absolute proof I think it's not safe to say that moulds were passed around and made by various makers. There are all sorts of reasons why similar items appear in more than one maker's catalogue.
The Nymphen items are Walther - catalogue attribution 1936. And that's the only proof that I can provide.
Glen
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Right Tigerchips.... a good nights sleep ...fresh eyes .. so start again.
This morning I looked through all eleven catalogues, rather than skip odd years, and have a correction. Your lampbase is in fact Walther and only appears in the 1934 catalogue and is called "Greta". This would have had a matching glass lampshade.
Regarding the Nymphen range ...the only 2 items listed are the tray, which you have and a powder bowl that comes complete with a rather ornate fish lid.
I could not find either a direct reference , or indeed anything similar, to your boat and candlesticks
with regards to attribution by Broadfield Glass Museum... you will have to decide for yourself.
The museum is an excellent source of reference and information but as I said in my earlier posting we are all fallible. To give you an example... in 1993 Broadfield were organising an exhibition of glassware by George Davidsons.... and after speaking to Nick Dolan I was told they would be including a selection of, until then, non catalogued "Davidsons" cloud glass. When I asked why.. the answer was because there was nothing to suggest otherwise... anyway after various conversations with Nick Dolan and explaining why I thought it was not Davidsons this glass was eventually displayed and catalogued as "foreign cloud glass"... much to the annoyance of some existing "experts". It was not until a few years later this other cloud glass was correctly identified as Walther.
I am always quite happy and prepared to be corrected so if you can find any other evidence of attribution I would much appreciate it.... Better to know that I know rather than think that I do...but until then I'll go with what I believe based on the evidence I have found to date
With regards to your items on Ebay as far as I am concerned it is as I have said before.... ultimately its the buyers choice irrespective of what is contained in the listings..... good luck with them.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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The Nymphen items are Walther - catalogue attribution 1936. And that's the only proof that I can provide.
Glen
Hi Glen
I know my eyesight and my attention span are not 20/20...and I might even be a couple of sarnies short of a picnic basket...but.... I've had yet another look through the 1936 catalogue and I can still only find reference to the tray...not the candlesticks.... am I also a couple of pages short of a full catalogue :oops: :roll: :wink:
Regards
Gareth
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Hi Gareth - it's not easy to spot. In fact I'll add some info about date of manufacture.....we can include right up to 1953 when it was made by the Walther merger company - Saschenglas.
Grab your 1936 catalogue..... find the dresser trays. There are three together: Waltraut, Amsterdam and Nymphen.
Shown again in 1953 in a group of three: Shamrock, Nymphen and Pierette.
I use a magnifying glass (makes me look like some sort of sleuth :lol: or is that a sloth :lol: )
Glen
PS Yes, only the tray....but they HAD to have made the candlesticks too, surely!
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And on a separate subject, I will fully endorse what Gareth said re. museums and their knowledge. They are not infallible. I have seen many misattributions by museums...and oh yes, books too! Shock. :shock:
EDITED TO ADD
Oh and another thing.....unless one is sure, sure and then sure some more. Simply write PROBABLY made by Walther. So much more accurate. I would certainly do that re. the items that we have not yet seen illustrated in the Walther catalogues (eg the Nymphen candlesticks). The dresser tray is there, the jar is there, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the candlesticks were theirs (as part of the set) but if you add the vital "probably" then you can never be wrong :lol: . JMHO
Glen
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I have a large pressed glass Art deco sailing ship on Ebay. It's the same colour as the lamp base and it's frosted too.
For information on this, you may like to see the "Ships from Bohemia" thread.
Glen
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Yes, only the tray....but they HAD to have made the candlesticks too, surely!
I'd have thought so too, (and don't call me Shirley! :lol: :wink: ) but I think it was the candlesticks that the man at Broadfiled House was referring to. The fact remains that they definitely came in two versions, mermaid with one arm up and mermaid with both arms up :shock:
Whether one version was Walther and another somebody else, I don't know. I am sure he said the moulds were passed around in the area from one factory to another over a period of time, though I could have mis-understood him :shock: :?
Chips, your mermaids have one arm raised, as had mine.
(http://tinypic.com/a29qig.jpg)
Here's a close-up of her http://tinypic.com/a2ab0l.jpg
Anyone here got a pic of the both-arms-up version to compare?
Leni
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Well, the moulds certainly began with Walther, and then were used again after the company became nationalised (became VEB Saschenglas). Maybe they re-cut the mould for the mermaid stick, that would explain the change. A bit like Sowerby remaking their Covered Swan mould.
I can't imagine a scenario where these moulds were passed around various companies. I think it's just Broadfield House's euphemism for saying they are not really sure who made them but they think it could have been Walther.
August Walther and Sohne; Sächsische Glasfabrik August Walther & Sohne Aktiengesellschaft; VEB Saschenglas.
Glen
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Hi Gareth - it's not easy to spot. In fact I'll add some info about date of manufacture.....we can include right up to 1953 when it was made by the Walther merger company - Saschenglas.
Grab your 1936 catalogue..... find the dresser trays. There are three together: Waltraut, Amsterdam and Nymphen.
Shown again in 1953 in a group of three: Shamrock, Nymphen and Pierette.
I use a magnifying glass (makes me look like some sort of sleuth :lol: or is that a sloth :lol: )
Glen[/color]
Hi Glen
Yes as I said I found the tray........... maybe the answer to this is that the catalogues are in themselves incomplete.... although you'd have to then say that this would have been extremely counter-productive marketing.
The Pierrette set does have c/sticks and most of the other pieces ( although not all) and then theres the very excellent Sonnenfisch set.. particularly the magnificent round tray, a lot like Escher..... but like the Nymphen there is very little else shown available to be able to put together a complete dressing table set.
I do very much agree with you saying ...but surely there had to be the c/sticks too.... absolutely.... the alternative makes no sense.... like a 3 wheeled Ford Focus :roll: :roll:
Why a magnifying glass???.... :shock:
Regards
Gareth
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Why a magnifying glass???.... :shock:
Old age :lol:
Glen
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Why a magnifying glass???.... :shock:
Old age :lol:
Glen
Yea me too...and some... but do you literally mean sticking a magnifying glass in front of the screen. What program do you open the catalogues in????
Regards
Gareth
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Have just seen a mermaid set on ebay with both arms raised, and IMHO the mermaid is much prettier in this version! :shock: :?
In fact, I might say she looks far more like the mermaids on the lid of the bowl and on the tray! The 'waves' around the base look very different, too. Could this mean that the one-arm-up mermaid was made by another company? :shock: Or that the different versions were made at different dates? Have Glen and Gareth checked other dates / catalogues?
I am intrigued by this thread! Bet Chippy didn't know what a can-o'worms he was opening :wink: :lol:
Leni
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Have just seen a mermaid set on ebay with both arms raised, and IMHO the mermaid is much prettier in this version! :shock: :?
In fact, I might say she looks far more like the mermaids on the lid of the bowl and on the tray! The 'waves' around the base look very different, too. Could this mean that the one-arm-up mermaid was made by another company? :shock: Or that the different versions were made at different dates? Have Glen and Gareth checked other dates / catalogues?
I am intrigued by this thread! Bet Chippy didn't know what a can-o'worms he was opening :wink: :lol:
Leni
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-VINTAGE-VASELINE-GREEN-GLASS-FIGURE-MERMAIDS_W0QQitemZ7340908268QQcategoryZ64878QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Gareth, I don't look at the computer screen (although I have been known to use a magnifying glass on the screen :roll: ). I have a hard copy - had them for some years.
Glen
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-VINTAGE-VASELINE-GREEN-GLASS-FIGURE-MERMAIDS_W0QQitemZ7340908268QQcategoryZ64878QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Yep! that's the one, Gareth! Look how much prettier the mermaid is! :shock: :D
And do I take it you are saying that neither version is shown in any of the Walther catalogues? :shock:
Where do we go from here, then? :?
Leni
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Gareth, I don't look at the computer screen (although I have been known to use a magnifying glass on the screen :roll: ). I have a hard copy - had them for some years.
Glen
Glen
Aha.. :roll: ....Hadn't thought of that.... because I was going to mention the "magnifying" tool on Word....... thought it odd when you said said that.
Regards
Gareth
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-VINTAGE-VASELINE-GREEN-GLASS-FIGURE-MERMAIDS_W0QQitemZ7340908268QQcategoryZ64878QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Yep! that's the one, Gareth! Look how much prettier the mermaid is! :shock: :D
And do I take it you are saying that neither version is shown in any of the Walther catalogues? :shock:
Where do we go from here, then? :?
Leni
Much better...particularly the base.... but neither in the catalogues....why do I get the feeling that the small powder bowl has some connection to Bagleys... didn't they do some marine inspired items..... not my area at all though so probably way off. :roll:
I suppose we go nowhere and remain speculative until someones comes along and says................
Gareth
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If we had to have a catalogue illustration of every single shape for every pattern before we allowed an attribution, then there would be a lot of "attributions" removed from the glass scene. As I said above, we can see a dresser tray and a covered jar in known catalogues (there were probably other catalogues, etc., but they are not yet known). No manufacturer of the size of Walther is going to have made a single jar and a single dresser tray in that pattern, and have it matched up with items produced by other makers when it was marketed.
The variation to the mermaids' arms could mean several things -
1. possibly there was more than one set in use at any one time (note 2 sticks to a single set would mean it was taking more use per single set)
2. possibly the mould suffered damage and was recut
3. possible one version was hard to get out of the mould so they recut
4. possibly the first version was damaged and when the set was made in the 1950s a new mould was cut for the sticks
Dresser sets known are in matching colours. It makes logical sense that all items in the set were made by the same maker. However, as we don't (yet) have an actual illustration of the sticks, you can simply say "probably Walther" for the sticks if you feel uncomfortable about going the whole way.
Glen
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Hi Tigerchips
If you have a look at one of the last postings from Glen on the thread
Ships from Bohemia... I think you will find your green boat on there.... plus some necessary info
Gareth
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Oh MY gosh. Am I girly today or what? Beans for brains I think.....
I mentioned this thread for a link, at the start of the Ships from Bohemia topic, but I forgot to mention it on this thread. Thanks Gareth. Sigh....it takes a man to spot these things. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Glen
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Oh MY gosh. Am I girly today or what? Beans for brains I think.....
I mentioned this thread for a link, at the start of the Ships from Bohemia topic, but I forgot to mention it on this thread. Thanks Gareth. Sigh....it takes a man to spot these things. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Glen
Not really Glen....as I'm sure you're well aware of by now we stumble over things and sometimes they just seem to settle in the right place... nothing nearly as subtle as intentional..... anyway girly is good for you
Gareth
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-VINTAGE-VASELINE-GREEN-GLASS-FIGURE-MERMAIDS_W0QQitemZ7340908268QQcategoryZ64878QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Yep! that's the one, Gareth! Look how much prettier the mermaid is! :shock: :D
And do I take it you are saying that neither version is shown in any of the Walther catalogues? :shock:
Where do we go from here, then? :?
Leni
I have had another look at this set on Ebay but not finding it easy due to the poor photographs..... however I do believe that the powder bowl with the lid is shown in the 1934 catalogue as part of the Nymphen range..... and further to what Glen was saying about catalogues not necessarily showing all of the pieces in all of the colours in all of the sizes scenario I would have to err on the sisd of agreeing that the c/sticks could well be from the same Walther range. If this is correct I do still find it a very strange ommission if trying to encourage people to but the set.
Regards
Gareth