Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Andy on May 14, 2008, 03:38:04 PM
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Ive done a bit of research on the Hallmark, I think its Birmingham, 1848,(date letter Z) Silversmith, HM,
Henry Manton.
Its a very pretty and quality pot, (pepper probably)
3 layers, top is a pale blue, white in the middle, and cut to clear .
Must be a Stourbridge maker,
Any ideas, views, info welcome.
Thanks
Andy
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Im leaning towards Richardson :)
The colours unusual, any clues there?
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Andy — The only reference I can find to such glass is in Hajdamach. Colour plate 5 p.86 illustrates a similar vase. His comments include "an area where the attribution to Bohemia, England or France can be extremely arbitrary" and, considering this specific vase, "may be Saint Louis", although he provides no evidence for this suggestion.
His message comes across as if you can't match to a published design or one in the original pattern books, then you've got a severe attribution problem. You can't eliminate English glassworks, as by 1848 Richardson, Rice Harris, and Bacchus all seem to have been manufacturing such glass.
Bernard C. 8)
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Here are a couple of perfume sprays from a little known German/Bohemian glassworks Brüder Rachmann 1857-c1945. Similarities being colour (allowing for print interpretation) and use of cut punties and lines. These were amongst the most expensive of the range of 600+ items in the catalogue I have.
They also produced tableware. Assumption is that they were decorators - but after several years of research, I suspect they were also making the glassware. The had a large factory in Haida and one brother was a glassmaker and the other a metal worker. I am still waiting on a contact with a descendant who has photographs of the factory and possibly some of their other catalogues.
(http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/9bf55370804737fe263819ff81c35920.jpg)(http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/bf6c48239ad34da2c254568674d43c1c.jpg)
Images courtesy The Glass-Study (Glass Catalogue)
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Thanks Chaps :D
Bernard, it was that picture i was looking at, another look and the pattern is very similar
to the glass , far right, possibly Bacchus.
Frank, those little bottles are also very similar!
Ive just rechecked the hallmark site, the seller of the pot had said it was 1899 , reading up,
the duty mark, the Queens head, stopped in 1890, mine has , i think a faint queens head, and
this type of glass seems to have been fashionable at mid 19thC so i think im right in 1848.
That would discount Bruder Rachmann! Maybe they were taking inspiration, from the makers of
my little pot :D Shame i havent got the whole set!
Probably as close as im going to get with this one, i'll put my bet on Birmingham area ;D
(actually if the date letter Z is next up, 1874, then it could be Franks suggestion :-\ )
Thanks again,
Andy
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I'm confused. On the Glass Catalogue site it says,
"Brüder Rachmann - Glas- und Metallwaren-Fabrik ♦ Rachmann Brothers - Glass and Metal Works ♦ Rachmann Frères - Cristallerie et fabricants de métal
Founded 1874 - closed 1945(?)."
I think you're right, Frank, that it was a glass manufacturer, and not just a decorator. The decorating companies seem to call themselves Glasrafinerie (glass refiners). The fact that they were a metalworking company as well would argue against a scenario where glass was imported to England and the silver top was added there.
Andy, the interesting color of your piece reminds me of a tumbler I have. It's color to me seems wrong for Bohemian, and I wondered if it was Boston and Sandwich, but maybe it's English or French. At least you have some markings on yours!
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It was fairly normal to add the silver tops in the UK for Bohemian glass, they would also use English registered design numbers organised by the UK factors. From the complete lack of Rachmann marked glass it is possible that they operated exclusively through factors. That makes it near impossible to prove they actually made the glass, combined with fact that much Bohemian glass used different makers and decorators.
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Andy, the shape of the sheild also tell's you what year the silver was assayed along with thw marks, could we see a clearer pic of the mark please?
Also is the neck of the bottle longer than the pepper cap?
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This is from Neuwirth's Das Glas des Jugendstils, talking about Fachschule Haida: "Rohglas fuer [ach, umlauts aren't working] die Werkstaetten der Fachschule lieferten kostenlos die Haidaer Firmen J. Gerner, S. Reich and Co., Brueder Rachmann, Carl Hosch..." Doesn't that mean BR et al. provided blanks for the school? I think they were a glassmaker, not just a decorating company. It says elsewhere in the book that BR were pretty good at cutting cased glass, or something to that effect.
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Sounds like it! One more incidental confirmation. :)
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Done it!
got better pics of Hallmarks, i didnt know i could use the extra digital zoom with the Macro,
works fine, Sue, hope this helps :D
The neck of bottle is longer than the cap. I presume it twists of to refill it, theres no screw, but its
very tight, dont want to force it!
Andy
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Hi Andy, i am afraid that hall mark is for Birmingham 1899, and i dont think the silver top belongs to the bottle, i would think more like perfume as Frank suggested.
Hope this helps? :)
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Hi Sue,
you may well be right, how about the mark next to the Z which looks like a duty mark, I think
the Queens head?
Ive just rechecked the hallmark site, the seller of the pot had said it was 1899 , reading up,
the duty mark, the Queens head, stopped in 1890, mine has , i think a faint queens head, and
this type of glass seems to have been fashionable at mid 19thC so i think im right in 1848.
And, good news, i was brave, and twisted hard, top came off quite easily, and is a perfect fit,
the top of the bottle is polished ,not ground :D
Ive got a few doubts on your suggestion now.
Andy ;)
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The queen's head would still be there for 1899, it changed to Edward V11 IN 1901 .
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The shaping of the Lions shield does appear to be a better match for 1847.
I had not noticed the mismatch of the top to the base :huh: which puts the cass among the pigeons again (for Max ^-^ )
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It's the date letter wich gives a better idea of age, with the clipped edges and the shape of the letter Z also to the assay office shape being the same clipped edge.
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If the base and top are mismatched, and that seems a strong possibility in spite of the fact that they fit well, it throws this whole thing wide open, since opaque cut-to-clear was and continues to be widely made. Is that what is meant by putting the cass among the pigeons? I looked "cass" up in my dictionary, but it wasn't there.
The only thing I'm very confident of is that the style of cutting, not the punties but the lines, is not mid-19th C Bohemian. I think that without identifying a maker that used either the blank or the exact outer color it will be impossible to positively identify this, or even date it.
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Is that what is meant by putting the cass among the pigeons? I looked "cass" up in my dictionary, but it wasn't there.
try cat ;)
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Colours are often not that good a guide as many colour makers had an international market. Interesting about the straight lines as to my mind the design is very circa 1900 - so if we eliminate the cap...
I just looked for the size, no mention, how high is it?
As to Cass, well :-[ that was my dyslexic fingers... in this case substantially worse as I originally typed casts (Guess who is reading up on cast glass) but spotted the mistake and then :-[ removed the wrong letter. Cat amongst the pigeons just came to mind for back to square one because of Maxs' project.
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Interesting about the straight lines as to my mind the design is very circa 1900
Exactly my thought since the start of this thread.
Also tend to agree re mismatch of top with base.
The glass neck seems to flare slightly towards the body - does it ?
How big is it ? It seems too voluminous for a pepper shaker.
Ed.
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In Truitt's Bohemian Glass VII p16, 4th page of reproduced Palda 1935 catalogue pages the is a small picture of a
perfume bottle the same shape as this in a pale blue overlay but cut to white. The cuts are in straight lines but evenly spaced. It has a bulb atomizer fitting.
Sufficient differences to say that the item in question is not nec from this date or by this maker but sufficient to say that it is more likely to be a perfume bottle, could be Bohemian/ Czech and significantly later than originally thought.
From a number of other examples of cut overlay glass in the book, the overlapping circles motif seemed to enjoy particular popularity in the period 1910-20. Another item with straight line cutting is dated to 1918-25.
Ed.
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Kristi and Frank's discussion on glass colours moved here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21349.0.html
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Well, close enough ;D
Its between 1848 and 1920, its a pepperpot or a perfume bottle or something else, and it was
made in Bohemia, France, England, or The USA, or somewhere completely different.
Im happy with that ;)
Franks Perfume bottles by Brüder Rachmann seem closest . I think it may remain unresolved for now.
By the way, size is 4 1/4" (11cm) tall, diameter of base 1 3/4" (4.5cm)
Thanks all,
Andy