Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Frank on June 06, 2008, 01:52:11 PM
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Any ideas on maker and/or registrant please.
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/a58c8206335deca4b3e97fdb2e2dd9e6.jpg
It is also in the Glass Catalogue under Members Projects>Numbered Glass>UK Registration Design Number>
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Frank - Bagley, launched as pattern No. 3184. See Bowey & Parsons, either edition.
Bernard C. 8)
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Thanks Bernard, one day I will find a thistle item actually made in Scotland.
Item has been appropriately updated on Scotland's Glass >:D
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... and not introduce transcription errors into the pattern number.
... and make it clear that there is some confusion over the pattern number; for the known story see Bowey & Parsons, although the second edition may clarify the story.
Bernard C. 8)
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This may not be the 3184. There are two variants of the 3184 shown, neither with a thistle in the bottom, although a thistle seem to have been an option (and even the thistle came in single- and double-headed variants). Both have stars but differing sides. Bowey and Parson then say on p55 of the 1964 catalogue version of the 3184: " An identical dish with a thistle design in the base has the registration number 826790 of 1938. However, this design is registered to FJ Cleveland & Co. and was probably not made by Bagley." So not only is there a pattern number issue (the 1964 version was not the first 3184), there is a registration number issue!!
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Hmmm, F J Cleveland are a patent agent so unless you have the original registration info, I would have expected them to be mentioned on it as an agent but not as the registrant who should also have been named. Someone must have misread the papers or not worked from a second source.
Can I use your text on the item description Christine.
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Yes,, but perhaps wait till Bernard has another look. This is what I worked out from Bagley Glass, Angela Bowey, Derek and Parsons, 2004, Second Paperback edition.
Do you have the blue book?
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As a longshot, perhaps ask them if they still have records? http://www.fjcleveland.com/
(Reg Design 826790 not shown in Blue Book btw.)
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Done. I had considered that but decided to wait and see if we already had the info somewhere
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Well done Christine, let's hope for a positive reply. :)
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I received a reply, but they don't have records. He suggested a visit to the National Archives at Kew. The reference number needed would be BT53/104, although this is a general number not a specific one
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Perhaps we need a sticky thread somewhere for listing questions to answered via Kew (or other archives) with brief detail and links back to the threads. There have been a few such questions vanished into the nether regios.
Then when some one does make a trip they could take the list with them perhaps. High time the entire archive was digitised anyway!
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Frank that is a sensible suggestion. Leave it with me.
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Angela is here with me and says she has a copy of the above registration document from Kew and it has no more information in it than the name F J Cleveland. (If it had she'd have included it in the book. :)) Hope this helps.
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Not really ;D If Angela knows that Cleveland was used as an agent by Bagley during that period, we could perhaps say possibly made by Bagley on the basis of similarities with the other dishes. At least we do know it wasn't make by Cleveland! Somebody must have made a pig's ear of the form filling!!
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Curious to know was this thistle dish ever confirmed as by Bagley please? - I've seen it has Bagley in the header but what was the definitive for it? I didn't see that in the thread.
I have one and was astonished to see information here on it - one of those things that's lain in a box.
thanks
m
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I've just reviewed this topic M, and checked with Bagley Glass, 3rd edition, and there's still no firm confirmation, so this ID needs amending, which I'll do now. Angela says in the 3rd edition, "probably not made by Bagley."
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Hi Anne, thanks for the extra info. I just happened to be looking at this and realised it had a reg no on - never knew they existed until recently- so thought I'd check it out and lo and behold it was already on here :)
m
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I've just picked one of these thistle design dishes up too and, whilst checking it out on the board, saw that Fred has asked another question about a design with the immediately previous number (826789) and the same thistle pattern on the base, but in a different shape dish: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48874.0.html
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I now have additional information from the Registers and Representations at Kew, and intend to add them here - maybe it's the Board's intention to delete each 'Look Up' note as and when information is added to the original post - thus completing the Look Up reminder, which could then be deleted.
You'll remember that Rd. No. 826790 has been linked with 826789, and when opening the Register at Kew I discovered that both numbers were registered simultaneously on 9th March 1938, as CLASS 4. The correct Register reference at Kew is BT 53/75 and the Representations reference is BT 52/2186 - each covering both registrations.
I won't bang on and repeat the written details - as hopefully they're legible in my pix - with one exception, and that's the duff pix of the 'Perspective View From Underneath' of the Star shape of Rd. 826789. Forgot to check the quality of the photograph before I left Kew, although it seems that the design/shape etc. of the thistle is identical on both registrations, so don't think there's a problem. I can of course, re-take this pic on my next trip if anyone feels it's essential.
The Registrant appears to be a Henry Dresel with F. J. Cleveland as his agent - and from what Angela is saying, it seems that TNA may have short-changed when supplying information some while back - it seems they didn't make the full details clear - I really don't know why, but it goes to prove perhaps that for safeties sake a personal visit is best.
You'll see that the full Register entry is shown on a single pic, but as the writing is a tad small I've included two further pix which are simply repeats of the single image but broken in two and at a higher magnification - hopefully those of us who are short sighted will find all of the text legible ;)
I won't comment further, and hope that this will enable the Bagley experts to now resolve some of the confusion regarding these thistle dishes. If anything is unclear, please let me know.
Pictures 4 and 7 are of identical wording - except that the Rd. No. on each is different - not sure exactly quite what the wording is implying, but sure someone here will know. I nearly missed seeing these words - they were on the reverse of the page. I think there are a total of 11 pictures.
P.S. I also have information for some of the other 'Look Up' requests, and will add those later this week, hopefully.
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and four more.........
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and the last three............
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I now have additional information from the Registers and Representations at Kew, and intend to add them here - maybe it's the Board's intention to delete each 'Look Up' note as and when information is added to the original post - thus completing the Look Up reminder, which could then be deleted.
Sensible suggestion, Paul, we'll make sure that's done. :)
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Paul thanks so much for doing that and uploading the pics as well :)
m
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Coming back to this after my brief earlier response (someone at the door!) - yes indeed, thank you Paul for taking the trouble to go and check these out for us. I've sent an email to alert Angela to your extra information, I'm sure she will be most interested to see this.
Reading the Nat Arch entry I see it refers to the Patents Designs Copyright and Trademarks (Emergency) Act 1939, which I've looked at before in respect of designs, and I would suspect this indicates that these items were made in a country with which the UK was at war (i.e. Germany or one of the countries under German Occupation). I can't imagine why it would need to be invoked if these were originally made by a British maker. So, I think we need to start searching German, French, Polish and Czech catalogues of the 1930's and 1940's to find the maker... Henry Dresel being the importer, of course.