Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Gilead on June 11, 2008, 11:36:59 AM
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Hi All.
can someone tell if this is WF Tangerine Bark Effect by Powell, or a Total fake and a cheep penny vase by whom? please.
Steve
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I think you can be sure it's not Whitefriars. Neither is it a fake - many companies have done bark style finishes, including Ingridglas and Davidson (yours is not Davidson).
Whitefriars has much more complex patterning; the tangerine really is the colour of a ripe tangerine and the bases of other W/F bark pieces I have seen are polished (don't know about vases)
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WF never did a completely square bark vase - cylindrical and various other shapes with textured finishes but not a totally square bark vase. The texture on this vase is very different from a WF bark vase anyway - this looks more like ripples. (Christine, it does remind me of the Davidsons Luna vases although I must admit I've never seen a tangerine one!)
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You're forgetting Pattern 9683 and 9808 Nailhead vases by Whitefriars, Pip.
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-74-new/cat7415_16.jpg
Craig
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To be fair, the nailheads are not "bark" textured, but I agree they are square!!!! Emmi
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Even Davidson Luna is a more complex pattern than this one.
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Naiheads only have pattern on two opposite sides.
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I wouldn't call this vase "bark textured" either. The fact it is textured though can catch out those not familiar with Whitefriars and that it is that shape, like the Nailhead vases.
Craig
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You're forgetting Pattern 9683 and 9808 Nailhead vases by Whitefriars, Pip.
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-74-new/cat7415_16.jpg
Craig
No I wasn't forgetting them but they're a) not bark textured and b) plain on two opposite sides so my point still stands!
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I meant that they were a similar shape and thus vases like the ones in the beginning of the thread can catch people out.
Craig
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Hi.
How do you stand if you bought this from ebay as i did but it was listed as Whitefriars then turned out not to be, do i put it down to my bad judgement or can i get some sought of rebuff. have emailed the person but they just seem to be rude i explained that the vase was listed as Whitefriars bark effect but had a ? after it, i thought if you was not sure about it being WF you should not list as maybe, or am i wrong.
Shame as i bought 16 piece's this last 10 days and only this one as been trouble suppose live and learn Hey! they must think they a wrong because i was offered a small discount, which i refused and said i would like the whole sum less the cost of postage to and back to them, but since have been blanked no answer.
Steve.
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You have to put it down to your inexperience I'm afraid. Whitefriars is a much misused word on ebay, so unless you KNOW, don't buy. The ? should have been a clue, and probably the low price. I would guess 90% of the items with the word Whitefriars in the listing aren't, but it's a good way of getting people's attention. As they say "buyer beware". All I can say is browse the two Whitefriars sites and the catalogues till you're dizzy and buy the book
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Christine.
Thanks thought as much but did send the seller some questions and he was quite sure of the vase but think he was just covering his self with ? can you please state which book please.
Steve
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There are two books (1) Whitefriars Glass by Lesley Jackson cost about £25 sometimes on ebay in the Whitefriars glass section or from Amazon
(2) The Museum of London book now out of print but which can be seen on ebay from time to time anything from £100 - £300.
BUT neither of them cover everything, especially the smaller items you are most likely to find here and there. There is absolutely no better way to learn about Whitefriars than browsing the catalogues until you go nearly BLIND, on either www.whitefriars.com or www.whitefriars.org., both sites dedicated to only Whitefriars glass and with good forums. Emmi
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Emmi.
Will do i dont intend to be caught again been in touch with this seller and his reply was sorry but i wish you luck in the future, ;D but anyway can any one say what this vase is i can tell you this it is as light as a match, and is on its way to the boxes in the shed :'(.
Steve
PS wished it had been like this one i bought,
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My rule of thumb is to simply never trust ebay attributions unless a piece is marked or a solid reference is provided. There are far too many pieces misidentified to use ebay as a reliable source of information. Sometimes that's because sellers are dishonest, often it's just because they don't know better. I think I've probably unknowingly sold a piece or two in my time that was misidentified. Glass is like that. Humans are like that - they err! Even well-researched books have errors.
It's sellers who consistently list misidentified pieces and don't respond to corrections that are in my opinion the really bad ones. There's one that really gets under my skin by saying he/she "guarantees" the information provided, when it's obviously wrong. But since ebay is so full of accidentally misidentified glass, there's little the ebay Powers That Be can do to address the issue.
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Your tangerine vase looks more like the WF Totem vase, number 9671, than bark effect, Steve! However, I'm not sure it's the right colour. Is it cased?
On second thoughts, I think it's not the right squiggles either. Totem has an almost Greek Key design. But this one is certainly similar enough to fool the inexperienced (like you & me, eh? ;) )
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You are right to have second thoughts,Leni, the Totem vases are VERY different,not square, taper in slightly at the top and are QUALITY GLASS ..... see here
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/profile_page_9671-prices.htm
Emmi
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Steve, if you paid by PayPal you can open a SNAD dispute (significantly not as described) and if PayPal find in your favour you'll get the purchase and postage costs back but will have to return it to the seller at your own cost. The ? used in any eBay title is reportable - you're not allowed to list items with a ? - something either is or isn't in eBay's book so it would also be in your best interests to mention that it was listed in this way if you raise a SNAD (I've never raised one of these disputes so I'm not entirely sure if you raise it with eBay or directly with PayPal but you'll get lots of help on the eBay forums if you ask how to go about it or perhaps someone else here knows). I'd recommend you doing this though, it'll be a very good education for the seller and might make him/her think twice before making half-baked attributions then shying away from their responsibility as a seller.
As others have said with regard to Whitefriars on eBay - it's a minefield and one needs to be VERY sure you know what something is yourself before you buy it - I never rely purely on the information given by the seller - if in any doubt don't bid.
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You are right to have second thoughts,Leni, the Totem vases are VERY different,not square, taper in slightly at the top and are QUALITY GLASS ..... see here
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/profile_page_9671-prices.htm
Emmi
Absolutely lovely, Emmi! Definitely quality! :clap:
I just meant to point out that someone who had never seen the real thing would be more likely to mistake Steve's vase for a Totem than a Bark. Perhaps the seller had seen a picture of a Totem and thought this one looked like it, so decided it was WF? :-\ It's more likely than mistaking it for a Bark! I've never seen a real Totem, only photographs, and not all are as good pictures as the beauties in your link! I didn't even realise they weren't square! (The 'textured' WF isn't really my thing, I'm afraid :-[ Is that heretical of me? ;))
I agree with Pip that you should definitely open a dispute, Steve. Go for it!
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I recently had to open a SNAD. It is very simple. At first you are asked to communicate with the seller (but through the PayPal dispute system), so you write as if you are speaking directly to seller. Probably repeating to him/her what you have already said when dealing with them directly. They may or may not respond.
If they don't respond, or respond in a negative way and there seems to be no way forward, then you can escalate it to a claim. PayPal may then ask you to provide proof that the item is not as described. They usually want it to be assessed by a dealer or auction house with a substantiating letter on a letterhead confirming it is not Whitefriars. They MAY accept a link reference to this thread, but unlikely. So you need to know a friendly "professional" who will supply you with this info. In my case, the item was broken, and so I pre-prepared a letter on the lines of "I have examined this item and confirm it is broken etc etc" and asked my local Antique shop to sign it and give me a letterhead or compliments slip. This then had to be faxed to PayPal. I got a full refund.
In another case I got my refund in full from the seller before having to escalate it to a PayPal claim.........I think it is worth doing because the seller doesn't want the hassle or negative feedback,so if they think you are serious then they capitulate.
But this may all seem to much for an item for which you may have paid very little, I don't know, and sometimes you just have to put it down to experience. Emmi
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PayPal may then ask you to provide proof that the item is not as described. They usually want it to be assessed by a dealer or auction house with a substantiating letter on a letterhead confirming it is not Whitefriars. They MAY accept a link reference to this thread, but unlikely. So you need to know a friendly "professional" who will supply you with this info.
I would be happy to do this for you if required Steve.
One more thing to mention with regard to making PayPal claims - if/when you are required to send the item back make sure you do it by a trackable, signed method because PayPal will require you to be able to prove that the item was actually delivered back to the seller, not just posted.
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Emmi & Pip.
I thank you both i am going to do as you say was looking into it to day but had to ask my sons girlfriend how to go about it, as i am new to ebay, i have emailed the seller several times and kept all the emails, i gave him chance to sort this out properly even said i would except the money back i paid for it, and carry the cost of postage to me and then back to him but just got rude comments from him.
The item cost me £21 it's not about the money with me, i just expect to be treated how i would treat some one IE polite and fair, over the last ten days i have bought 18 piece's of WF and had no trouble, cant understand why people are like this. but enough of the moaning from me.
Back to buying :) and thank you all for the support,
PS this vase weighes all of 243g or 8.5/8oz and stands 7.1/4inches high 2inch square at rim, and can feel the patten both inside and out few more photos for you to gaze at in wonderment ;D
Regards
Steve
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Only me again.
i have just checked this guys site out again on ebay to see his returns policy and could not find it.
While there i had a look at what other glass he is selling and according to his description he has Flygfors scandinavin freeform glass dish ice blue. by you guessed keldev if thats so i have two of them.
Also Holmegaard Rllhmaki, ? now i know im no expert and will never be, but how is he sure of these? perhaps it's the same people he told me about in an email, he get opinions from people whom know.
The flygfors is number 320261291484.
Steve
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Well his 'Flygfors' is from Ikea, his 'Holmegaard' is by Ronnie Stennett-Willson for Wuidart, and his 'Riihimaki' is probably by Hirschberg... maybe Taube.
You can tell that they have no real idea when the only piece of glass they come close to getting right is the labeled Murano vase, and the seller describes it as being made 'by' Murano, as though the island were a single company.
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Only me again.
i have just checked this guys site out again on ebay to see his returns policy and could not find it.
I wouldn't worry about that unduly - some big business sellers who really should know better state all sorts of nonsense in their returns policies which totally contravene the Distance Selling Regulations. Basically, if you make a claim against your seller and PayPal find in your favour his returns policy or lack of one will count for nothing.
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Hi Steve et al a few years back a rogue got hold of a lot of cheap W/Fs ash trays and a load of bud vases had the tops cut off the bud vase and had them made into inkwells with brass fittings if you are ever in the portabello road you will see many of these one of the giveaways is when you flip the top back it will hit the side of the bottle with quite a bang.ps the bud vases were from several manufacturers ;) ok Bubbles
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While there i had a look at what other glass he is selling and according to his description he has Flygfors scandinavin freeform glass dish ice blue. by you guessed keldev if thats so i have two of them.
Also Holmegaard Rllhmaki, ? now i know im no expert and will never be, but how is he sure of these? perhaps it's the same people he told me about in an email, he get opinions from people whom know.
Steve, I understand you're new to eBay - however sellers like this one are ten a penny - there are thousands of them, ordinary Joes with delusions of being professional dealers. There's nothing wrong with that of course but they don't do the groundwork, they don't buy the books and they lack the critical eye needed to be able to differentiate between modern mass production and handmade artglass. There are also a great many business sellers (as this one is judging from the number of items he's sold) who are totally ignorant of the Distance Selling Regulations which state that buyers should have a cooling off period of 14 days during which you can simply change your mind and return the item for a full refund. The fact that he doesn't state a returns policy also has negative implications from his point of view with regard to the DSR. These people are 'playing' at being dealers.
I'm sure at some point I've crossed paths with this particular seller - it was probably me contacting him to correct a misattribution but I can't remember for sure and it wasn't in the past year - I am always more than happy to help people like this if I can but, sadly, few take me up on my offer. I suspect this seller doesn't get help from professionals preferring instead to 'wing it' or, if he does seek help and he's told his alleged Flygsfors is modern Ikea production he ignores it and goes with Flygsfors - we'll never know. But the point is you'll come across many more sellers who make grand claims about their items, who will 'guarantee 100%' that what they've got is what they're saying it is. It's down to you as the buyer to be able to read between the lines, to look at their other listings, to ask questions - don't just blindly believe whatever you're told in a sales listing - and always pay by PayPal and that way you're protected in instances like these. Also ensure that when a seller brushes off your concerns or is rude to you as you've said this person was and attempts to evade their responsibilities that you give him a big fat negative feedback. If he gets too many negatives or neutrals during a given period he will be suspended from trading under the new rules - which can only be good for the buyers - if he wants to continue selling then he'll have to smarten up his act.
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Thanks for the new pics, Steve. I can see now these are definitely not Whitefriars! I have however, since you first posted, now seen several of these masquerading as WF! Does anyone know what they really are?
Do go through with the SNAD! Emmi & Pip are extremely knowledgeable and experienced people, and their advice is always sound. Good luck with the claim!
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Retro-1960s-Bark-Effect-Cased-Studio-Art-Glass-Vase_W0QQitemZ250258418124QQihZ015QQcategoryZ64877QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I think i may have seen them, new, in charity shops at some time?
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I am sure Vidfletch will know what that orange one is.
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That ebay one is a Davidson Luna I believe
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Yes, Christine's right - the eBay one is a Davidson's Luna but Steve's orange one has already been discounted as one of these further up the thread - I've certainly never seen them in bright orange so I'm agreeing with Christine in this instance that it's not a Luna but haven't a squiddly diddly what it is.
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Hi
Seems i may have got some joy after emailing this person again today to let him know that i intend to make a complaint to ebay and Paypal, he as answered and said he will refund my money but will not pay for the postage which is what i asked for in the first place.
I got the answer when i said i had packed it safely and that it would be in the post in the morning, in caps (LETS HOPE IN ARRIVES COMPLETE AND NOT BROKEN THEN, AS YOU WOULD BE THE FIRST TO COMPLAIN HAD IT ARRIVED TO YOU BROKEN) at this i informed him that i had taken photo's of the vase being packed in different stages and that i was posting it so it was tracked and needed to be signed for.
Hopefully this will then put an end to this sorry story, many thanks for all your help, Pip your offer was very nice and much appreciated,i was overwhelmed with the advice you all gave.
Cheers
Steve.
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Steve, don't accept his offer, continue with your claim - he IS liable for the postage you paid so don't let him wriggle out of it.
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HI Pip.
After a good nights sleep and then you saying do not except is offer, i think i will go ahead with the claim as i did not like the way he said (LET HOPE IT ARRIVES IN TACT) after i told him i packed it well and was going to have it tracked.
Just have a feeling about this chap you know when you think some thing is just not right, thanks again Pip.
Steve.
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I would file the Paypal Complaint then immediately escalate (their word) to a Claim. You should get the purchase price plus the original shipping back. You will have to pay for return shipping. I've never been asked for an expert's opinion on damage. You can find where to start on the Paypal page under Resolution Center.
Over the course of ten years and over 1,000 purchases, I have sadly become very familiar with the Paypal version of "buyer protection". I won them all but had to do a chargeback through my credit card on three of them. The latest is from a month ago - they ruled in my favor, but since the seller had no funds in their account, Paypal said I was out of luck. This is the number one reason to always pay with a credit card. It's been my experience that the credit companies don't hesitate to refund if it involves Paypal.
Imagine my surprise when two weeks after initiating the claim, I received an eBay courtesy coupon for $50! The said it was their way of trying to make up for my "bad shopping experience". The claim is for $35, which I will get back through my credit card.
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you're not allowed to list items with a ? - something either is or isn't
Many thanks for that bit of info I never realised you were not allowed to use ?
Just got a piece of so called Okra taken off of Ebay as that was used. Tried to inform the person but just got insults and threats. Lets hear it for Ebay, for once they did right. :chky:
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Pip/Ron & scimiman.
I have put in my claim and have to wait the out come got email saying that i might have to get reference to the item, so i may call on your offer Pip if it still stands.
Regards.
Steve
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Many thanks for that bit of info I never realised you were not allowed to use ?
Just got a piece of so called Okra taken off of Ebay as that was used. Tried to inform the person but just got insults and threats. Lets hear it for Ebay, for once they did right. :chky:
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
Well done, Mike. What did you actually say to ebay? I ask because it is very difficult to get them to remove something!
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I'm not Mike, but what I do is go the bottom of the eBay listing page and use the"Report this item" link under the Other Options heading. I believe Misleading Title is the appropriate subtopic for reporting a ? in the title. It takes a few more clicks until getting the email sent confirmation.
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E-bay UK does not have a subheading "misleading title" under the report and item options. It is more complicated and as yet have not worked how to do it effectively. It's OK if you are reporting a fraudulent or counterfeit item,or there is a trade mark anomaly..........has anyone here in the UK found an effective way to get listings removed when there is a "? " in the heading~? Emmi
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Er, not everyone knows exactly what theyre selling!
The odd ? question mark is not exactly a capital offence!
Ive got some wonderful bargains and super bits of glass from people who dont know their Whitefriars from their lalique!
Giv um a break!
just my opinion ;D
Andy
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Hi Andy.
i am all for giving people a break but when you email some one and you get nothing but rudeness back and then have the front to say (i hope it arrives in tact because you would be the first person to complain if it arrived broken to you) al in caps.
I then tend to think i am dealing with someone whom is not all they seem to be. i made several attempts to resolve this situation with the seller but just got abuse, there fore i have no other road to go down.
Regards.
Steve.
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I have been known on occasion to put a '?' in a title. Not to mislead, only when I am 99% certain of what the item is and then in my description make sure i actually say that I think the item is x or y and give my reasons for doing so. Case in point being a ceramic figure that I knew to be what it was but the item was missing it's backstamp. It was a relatively rare piece and any collector would know it for what it was but because it had no backstamp I could not actually say it was what it was. However I can Steve's gripe over this. I am always willing to be given information about items I list that I do not know about and am NEVER ever rude to anyone.
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I personally think that there is nothing wrong with a ? if you aren't sure about what you have. At least you aren't claiming something is something that it isn't. I too would never be rude if offered information and I usually start my listing by I believe this is may be a... By not putting a ? you are surely making a definitive claim.
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Hi Pip.
I have had a response from Paypal and as suggested they want a reference with regards to this vase on letter head paper and it's to be sent by Fax. is it best i email you though your site, with regards to this matter.
Steve
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Steve - sure - email me at sales (at) pips-trip (dot) co (dot) uk
(replacing the at with @ and dot with .)
With regards to the question mark thing in eBay titles - I wasn't being judgmental about it, all I was doing was highlighting the fact that it's against eBay rules. I used a question mark in a title once and had it reported and removed - so that's how I know. Obviously, continue to use question marks in titles if you wish - just be aware that your listing could be removed if reported.