Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: shandiane78 on June 27, 2008, 07:32:33 PM
-
Hi, it's been suggested to me that these may be French (Legras? Mont Joye?). Any here agree/disagree? Any thoughts on a maker? Thanks!
-
Hi Shannon,
dont know,
but $1.99 :mrgreen:
Good luck,
Andy
ps i'll give you $2, and youve made a profit ;D
-
Hi,
I would have expected to see a mark such as this one:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-280
but not everything is marked, from Legras.
Mont Joye is a Legras et Cie trade-mark.
Regards,
Marcus
-
Andy, if only they were mine! My mom picked these up in a local thrift. ;)
Marcus, thanks for the information. In your opinion, is there any strong evidence that these are French?
Thanks again!
-
Shannon,
how about, Fritz Heckert ? Thereisenthal ?
Just an idea
Andy ;)
-
Thanks for the ideas Andy. I'll Google around. When I saw them, I assumed they were Bohemian, but this is not my area of expertise (if I could be said to have one). ::)
-
I agree with Marcus. The style of enamel is more French than Bohemian, and the shape and glasswork seem so, too. And there's that huge ground pontil on the bottom - Marcus (or anyone), is that a typical characteristic of Legras/Mont Joye?
-
Hi,
I cannot comment further, as I have only ever handled one piece, which was where the image of the mark came from.
French glass is not my specialist area, despite living here.
Regards,
Marcus
-
Kristi,
this may just help to confuse more, but ,
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/library/lib3a.htm
half way down 7055 'a gilded & enamelled vase, probably Mont Joye c 1880s'
most pictures on that site are possibly or probably!
but the twist around the neck is similar, i think its a snake, your twist doesnt appear to be.
regards
Andy
-
I'm not sure what size these are, but aren't they decanters missing their stoppers? The numbers on the base would be the corresponding number that would be on the stopper too, for easy pairing. The neck ring would be a stylised snake like Andy suggests, I should think.
-
Legras is most likely, and yes it looks as if stoppers are missing.
-
Hi Shannon,
(sorry replied to Kristy in an earlier post, i meant you, its the Guinness you know :D )
How tall are they?
I feel they are probably vases, and are not missing stoppers!
Cheers,
Andy
-
They are about 7 1/2 inches tall. Small for decanters imo, and if they were cruets, I guess I'd expect a handle and a pouring lip...?
-
For holding cologne perhaps? I once saw what I'd assumed was a decanter, (onion-shaped like yours, with a simple thumbnail decor and star cut to the base), with a stopper (I think it may have been cork, but that's stretching the memory) and a perfume label. I remember the label quite clearly because it surprised me. This was before I was into glass, and I'm kicking myself that I never bought it (for reference).
-
Couldn't resist this.
They are about 7 1/2 inches tall. Small for decanters imo ...
Other folk have thought much the same too.
Now for a magic trick:
Roll up, roll up! Ladies and gentleman, before your very eyes ... as you all know, if it's only 7.5 inches (19 cm) it's must be a vase or something, not a decanter ... and here they are, two very different but good looking vases (or something) ... Look at these (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pid=10314&fullsize=1). Yes, that's right ... the measure shows they are even smaller than 7.5 inch (19 cm), and no stoppers, so they must be ...
But wait ... with a wave of my hand ... suddenly the one on the right (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pid=10313&fullsize=1) gains a stopper and, wow! doesn't it now look just like a decanter.
And, if I were to show a copy of Venetian Glass, Confections In Glass 1855-1914, open at pages 52 & 53, there would be seen several decanters, some with, some without stoppers. Two of them would match the shape and style of decoration as my "vase (or something)" on the left of the picture above. Those in the book closely matching mine are stated as 9 inch without a stopper, so mine is simply a bit smaller. But does that mean it's not a decanter?
Seriously folks, it is quite right to question things when doubts arise. But it is much better to check out as many options as possible before making a basic statement of opinion that itself is not backed up with good evidence.
I am not having a go at anyone and I am not trying to upset people. It's just that when several folk have offered the same or similar opinion on something (which may or may not always include good evidence), it needs rather more than yet another unverified opinion to begin to change things around. Otherwise we all end up going round in circles.
I believe my photos and comments are adeqaute proof that decanters of different types and decoration can be less than 7.5 inch (19 cm) without a stopper. Until somebody can show that the items at the beginning of this message are not decanters, then I go with the view that they most likely are - particularly with the number on the base that Max commented on.
-
Good one Kev,
I dont believe in magic. I still think they are vases for decorative purposes, instinct mainly,
and i feel the necks are just a little too flared to take a stopper, (and i do have decanters with
flared rims as well ;) )
Whatever they are, more importantly, the question remains, who made them!
Cheers,
Andy ;D
-
To me the one Kev shows on the right is obviously a decanter, not just because of its shape, but also because the inside of the neck is ground. To my mind, not a very good analogy.
Are there any nicks/scratches on the inside of the neck? In the absence of any evidence that they are decanters, I'm with Andy on this one. They look more like vases to me, too. For one thing, the neck is very distinct from the body, it's not flared toward the bottom. If you tried to pour from one, it seems like the moment the liquid hit the neck it would come rushing toward the rim. Shannon, you might try pouring from one to see how well it would work as a decanter.
Kev's right that there's not much evidence of them being vases, but I don't think there's much evidence for them being decanters, either. The numbers on the bottom could just as easily be inventory numbers, especially since the necks are not ground, a common indication that there might be matching stopper/decanter combinations.
"But it is much better to check out as many options as possible before making a basic statement of opinion that itself is not backed up with good evidence. ... Until somebody can show that the items at the beginning of this message are not decanters, then I go with the view that they most likely are"
It seems to me you are committing the same mistake (if it is one) that you point to in others' comments: stating an opinion without "good evidence" to back it up. In the end it's all opinion; we don't know either way - so what's wrong with hazarding a guess?
-
I believe that style is called shaft and globe, it's a Victorian thing, maybe dating before that, I'm not certain. :)
EDIT
Andy McConnell's fabulous book The Decanter (ISBN 1 85149 428 6 - Antique Collectors Club) says that Shaft and Globe "has Roman antecedents. The most common decanter shape, produced since c50AD"
Uhh..so that shape is a little earlier than Victorian... :P :)
-
The smallest decanter listed in the Glass Catalogue is Moser 16520-30/10/III at 135mm 5ΒΌ" high. Liqueur decanters tend to be the smallest size, Edinburgh Crystal ones are just over 6" high and capacity is 9ozs. Claret decanters can be up to 40ozs or one quart, wine 24-30 ozs
But decanters do not (or did not) always have stoppers as in this Green & Nephew one from 1878
(http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/e3e4769267d333627cef7a1c7780f4b1.jpg)
Image courtesy The Glass Study
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decanter seems to miss the point. Small decanters for bitters have been around forever, even if Wikipedia says it holds at least one standard bottle of wine. Wiki says a decanter sans stopper is a carafe - but a carafe is a decanter in French which can have a stopper - or not.
The sample Frank shows is a water decanter for the bedside, with the upside down matching tumbler not shown.
Not sure why people insist this is a "vase" - the item is unsuitable for holding flowers or even feathers. The matching code on the bottom indicates there have been stoppers. I have yet to see 2 digit "inventory numbers", it makes no sense.
Not all stoppers have a ground seat, especially not in a vulnerable slender necked vessel where you would be more likely to use a light hollow blown conical one which either sits on the turned out rim or uses the conus.
And I entirely disagree with the statement that "in the end it is all opinion". I find it quite insulting to rate the contributions of others in this way.
-
If we were voting, I'd be voting decanters.
-
The sample Frank shows is a water decanter for the bedside, with the upside down matching tumbler not shown.
This surprises me. I wouldn't have thought someone would put a delicate-looking crimped rim on something designed to hold an inverted tumbler.
Not sure why people insist this is a "vase" - the item is unsuitable for holding flowers or even feathers. The matching code on the bottom indicates there have been stoppers. I have yet to see 2 digit "inventory numbers", it makes no sense.
I, for one, don't insist these are vases. I don't feel very strongly about it one way or another, and actually the rim type does suggest decanters. I think I'll withdraw my "vote" and just say I don't know.
Not all stoppers have a ground seat, especially not in a vulnerable slender necked vessel where you would be more likely to use a light hollow blown conical one which either sits on the turned out rim or uses the conus.
My point about the ground seat is that would more strongly support the idea that the codes on the bottom were for a specific decanter-stopper match, rather than having interchangeable stoppers.
And I entirely disagree with the statement that "in the end it is all opinion". I find it quite insulting to rate the contributions of others in this way.
I certainly don't want to insult anyone! There's nothing disrespectful about saying people are giving opinions. Some opinions are very well-informed, but they are still opinions, not facts. There has simply not been any concrete evidence (such as the design in a reference of some sort) posted to state factually one way or another whether these are vases or decanters. That the code on the bottom is for a matching stopper is an assumption, not a fact, regardless of its likelihood.
EDIT: This vase appears to have some sort of code on it, far left in the photo of the bottom.
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/the-vault/item/A-711
-
Re vases, vases were not originally designed to hold anything, they were, and in fact still often are, ornaments in their own right
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decanter seems to miss the point. ... but a carafe is a decanter in French which can have a stopper - or not.
;D That is Wikipedia for you, opinions and confusion! In theory some can go and correct that article but increasingly it seems to be driven by corporate PR departments selling their position.
quote: The Venetians reintroduced glass decanters during the Renaissance period
quote: Free-blown, wheel-cut carafes. First half of 11th century. Excavated at Teppe Madraseh, Neishapur, Iran.
The sample Frank shows is a water decanter for the bedside, with the upside down matching tumbler not shown.
I don't think so, it was a prestigious piece of engraving for a major exhibition, why only illustrate part of it?
But as Ivo points out the difference between carafe and decanter would appear to be artificial, at what point did the usage of the terms change in English glass? A US catalogue for 1900 uses both caraffe (sic) and water bottle to name the design of a water container that can have a tumbler. S&W at the same time also used the term caraffe (sic) to describe these. S&W also used the terms; Jug, Bottle but not decanter. I would suggest that the conventions are merely a modern desire for homogenity in terminology and that it as useful to know what terms the makers and resellers at the time of production used but that it is largely irrelevant unless the object is going to be used. Not many collectors (I do though) actually use their more precious objects, so glass ornament becomes equally applicable. So in this case the discussion of what it is seems irrelevant, only the original catalogue entry will clarify its original purpose... so who made it.. now that is interesting.
-
Re vases, vases were not originally designed to hold anything, they were, and in fact still often are, ornaments in their own right
I agree Christine ;D
Lets not worry about what they are, the question was,
Hi, it's been suggested to me that these may be French (Legras? Mont Joye?). Any here agree/disagree? Any thoughts on a maker? Thanks!
I sometimes have soup in a cereal bowl! :o
Andy
-
Just found this,
http://www.glasshound.com/Legras_art_glass_vase_stdenis_342.html
similar enameling, he says found in 1888 Legras catalogue, Japanese style enameling.
Andy :D
-
Legras is most likely
the dianthus theme is standard fare in all enameled Legras. Really.