Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: nigel benson on July 07, 2008, 11:22:30 PM
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Hiya,
No etching there, all engraved (cut).
Agreed.
etched with engraving
Is this possible? Surely etched or engraved Frank? As I understand it engraving is done with a fine copper wheel (or needle, or diamond) and etching is the use of acid. Check out a very useful little book, Glass fact File A-Z by a chap name Haanstra ;) :)
Thought this ought to be corrected for other readers benefit :) Otherwise the misconception goes on.
Kind regards, Nigel
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Well, I had a look at some of my books, and did some more searching of that gallery, but I'm afraid I struck out. Doesn't quite seem like the stem for Imperial Molly. Liberty is still a good possibility, but unfortunately it's not documented well. Most often it's not worth trying to find the cutting because they were so often done by decorating companies, but you could get lucky. You might try posting it in this forum http://chataboutdg.com/invision/.
A piece can be etched as well as engraved, but it's very uncommon in American glass except where an etched and usually gilt band is applied to cut stemware. "engraving is done with a fine copper wheel (or needle, or diamond)" copper wheel, yes, diamond yes, needle, no (stone wheels, yes). I've noticed on UK ebay that some people call pieces like the first one below "needle engraving," but this is really a type of etching. A machine is used with needles that cut through wax resist, then the piece is dipped in an acid bath. (Sorry about the cruddy photos)
The second photo also shows a type of etching done with the aid of machine, using needles. This is pantograph etching. A decorator followed a design in an etched steel plate using a stylus. The machine transferred the movements of the stylus to a needle that cut the pattern through a wax resist, and then the piece was dipped.
Very OT, sorry! I saw that "needle" and ran with it!
(PS - I am aware that long ago glass people used the term "engraving" for etched techniques; perhaps it is also acceptible today in the UK, just not in the US. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here.)
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etched with engraving
Is this possible? Surely etched or engraved Frank?
Quite common as a cost saving particularly by modern (post WW2) decorators, but also back to 19th Century. After etching highlight details are engraved and various engraving techniques can be used including sandblasting which some engravers view with horror. Most commonly used for commemoratives with the text being needle or wheel engraved onto a standard etched base. But I suppose many would not consider this very collectable.
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Hiya,
After etching highlight details are engraved
I'm thinking that that is two processes used to give a type of decoration. It feels as if you are describing etching and engraving Frank, even though the use of 'with' is totally correct. I did not say that the two could not be used in conjunction with each other, merely that the processes are different.
Unfortunately, the term etched with engraving
can be ambiguous since it can read with different meanings - you have now explained what you meant, thank you. This allows anyone who might have misinterpreted you (including me) to understand the process you were alluding to.
PS - I am aware that long ago glass people used the term "engraving" for etched techniques; perhaps it is also acceptible today in the UK
Only mistakenly, which is another reason why I flagged this up.
I have met many people over the years who might say "etched with engraving" when describing decoration thinking that engraving is achieved by etching rather than the two being different processes that may, or may not be used together on one item.
Your description of etching with the use of needles is very interesting Kristi, thanks.
As for the "needle", I really shouldn't make postings when it's late and I'm tired :o I just did a double check in Ivo's book, where he says, under 'Engraved or Engraving': "Decoration technique using a wheel, needle, diamond, etc. ...."
This ratherly neatly brings us to the the use of diamond, or steel, points which were used by Lawrence and Simon Whistler, amongst others, for (stipple) engraving.
Kind regards, Nigel
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Could moulds also have been etched? like the Chinapressung of Brockwitz?
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/schalen/05935.html
::)
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Yes Pamela. Just about as many different techniques in mould-making too.
Sorry for being ambiguous Nigel, thanks for clarifying. (Can some edit my posts please ;))
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Could moulds also have been etched? like the Chinapressung of Brockwitz?
Baker & Crowe mention the following regarding Jobling's pyrex Willow Pattern:
'..H.R. haywood, an enigmatic and taciturn designer who had produced the Willow Pattern moulds by his own technique of acid-engraving metal' (Baker & Crowe 1985, p.10).
Whilst this brings up some confusion over the term engraving vs. etching again, It appears to describe a process of using acid to etch a design into a metal mould. I would not be at all surprised if Brockwitz had used a similar method to create their Chinapressung moulds.
Steven
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Yep, the piece Pamela linked to is a good example of something made with an etched mold. Most American Depression glass with detailed surface patterns was made using an etched mold, a cheap way of mimicking glass etching.
Are diamond- or steel-tipped styli of the type used in diamond engraving sometimes called needles? I guess I should have investigated that further before saying "needle, no"!
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http://www.dickblick.com/zz452/12/
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Those are for intaglio engraving/etching of copper plates used in printing. I don't think they'd work very well on glass. That's another thing I did in high school and college (university). Etching needles cut through an asphalt-based resist, then the plate is dipped in acid. Dry point needles scratch directly into the surface of the copper plate.
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It says the diamond one is for glass.
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Whoops, didn't see that. ::) Anyway, that one's called a "scribe" there, not a needle. ;D ;)
Have to admit, I searched, and one of the sites I looked at did talk about a diamond-tipped needle for glass engraving. I was wrong.
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Etching needles cut through an asphalt-based resist,
You mentioned wax based resists used with pantographs, but you may be interested to know that asphalt based resists are also used, particularly at Baccarat. :)
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That doesn't surprise me. Asphalt was used in some plate etching resists, too.
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Hi Kristi,
Yes, I almost missed the glass reference. To be fair, it is down as "....and can also etch glass." after zinc and copper.
Nigel
PS. Just off to the Hi Sklo Lo Sklo exhibition at King's Lynn, so will come back to this, hopefully, when I get back next week. N
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Glass always takes last place :( except here of course.