Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Frank on July 19, 2008, 06:59:52 PM
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I have a catalogue from this St Denis glassworks and note it (Ivo, Glass A-Z) was formerly Legras. They did dome of those moulded vases with mostly natural motif's; fish, birds, leafs etc. and was wondering id this was the type of piece designed by Heiligenstein?
All I found Googling was that the company tried unsuccessfully to takeover Compagnie de Saint-Gobain in 68 and failing that changed its business and became Danone.
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Legras was a bottle plant. VSN was a botle plant. Danone was a bottle plant. I think the ins and outs of the packaging industry require a specialised industry analyst and there is little we can do here. We're just not sufficiently introduced to make any sense out of a rapid sequence of takeovers, mergers, buy-outs and market shifts.
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Catalogue is 30s with some containers but mostly utility kitchenware and tableware and very Art Deco vases.
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does it have the galloping horses vase?
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nope
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When the became Danone they stopped glass production and shifted to contents, obviously a good move as they now are a household name, so as VSN 1926-68 they appear to have been quite successful.
Anyway a couple of the vases, when was this style of vase been first introduced? And by whom?
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When the became Danone they stopped glass production
Oh no they did not. In 1966, EVIAN SOUCHON-NEUVEUSEL and flat glass giant BOUSSOIS merged under the new name of BOUSSOIS SOUCHON NEUVEUSEL (B.S.N). They attempted a hostile takeover bid on ST.GOBAIN which failed in 1969. In 1973 B.S.N and GERVAIS DANONE announved their merger to become the largest food group in France under the name B.S.N GERVAIS DANONE with a turnover of 16 billion FFs. Danone was the owner of Verenigde (including Leerdam) glasfabrieken until quite recently. Core business is of course champagne bottles, beer bottles and various packaging glass. But the relevance for collectors escapes me.
Danone sold its majority stake in BSN Emballage to CVC Capital Partners (UK) in 1999 - but at the same time they took over Gerresheimer. The combined company (44% Danone!) has 20 plants in France, Spain, Germany and The Netherlands.
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... moulded vases with mostly natural motif's; fish, birds, leafs etc. and was wondering if this was the type of piece designed by Heiligenstein?
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Auguste was technical and artistic advisor at VSN (previously Legras) in Saint Denis from 1926 to 1931 - but he was also a colorist and enameler, and had his own sales outlet in Paris. If he was responsible for the drab matt grey mass produced vases is not known. He did produce quite stunning coloured pieces which are signed Daum or Mont Joye around that time. After 1945 he only did Ceramics.
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Were they actually grey or just frosted clear?
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dunno. I was never very curious about these vases.
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Here is one on eBay in pink, design 253, the mark is not shown in Hartmann
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350079477361
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wot - Carolus doesn't list Schreiber & Neffen? I'm amazed.
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He certainly does, their mark is an Angel with a shovel - but not Souchon-Neuvesel whose mark this is.
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reference, please
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I just happened to have Hartmann's tome on the table when I looked at this thread. So I took a look and page 78 (for the "N" section within Letters) shows a combined "S" and "N" for Schreiber & Neffen, but the "S" is "squared off", not rounded. Does that make a difference?
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It seems probable that both companies have used the intertwined SN logo at some time; but since that was before WW2 and before a dozen takeovers and mergers in the packaging industry, it seems unlikely we'll find out about it from BSN themselves who now are part of something called OI.
http://www.bsnglasspack.com/eur.aspx?id=1568&mode=1
As for Schreiber, the logo is reported in various sources - but it could well be one of those long repeated myth-attributions which seem to be rife in the glass industry. (open any book on glass and the first lines read "Pliny describes how Phoenicians camped out on the beach and built a fire...").
Also, as Legras/VSN was a bottle plant and Schreiber/S&N were reported as doing mainly lamp shades, these companies fell outside the direct sphere of interest of glass research.
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Don't know how I missed that Kev, but to be accurate Hartmann does not attribute that mark to Schreiber & Neffen , Glasshüttenwerke Reitendorf vorm. J. Schreiber & Neffen,Mähren (MOR), founded 1857. What is interesting is that he also lists Schreiber & Neffen vorm., Glasshüttenwerke, Vienna, founded 1857.
Reiterndörf produced blown and pressed glass, domestic & table glass, with their S&N mark on Silberglas (Bauernsilber)
Schreiber & Neffen in Vienna were the head office and in 1918 renamed Zay-Ugrocz. They owned at least 7 glassworks covering a wide spectrum of all glass types.
The their is the glassworks Joseph Schreiber & Neffen Glasshüttenwerke, Lednicke-Rovne, North Slovakia, founded in 1892 and used the tradenames Rona-Crystal and Kaiser-Kristall. There was some involvement with Baccarat when the form was bought by Schreiber & Neffen in Vienna. Confused? There is more but I need a better translation.
From the Glass-Study a 1909 global trade directory does cover all the works but not yet fully digitised so for starters:
Glashüttenwerke vorm. Schreiber & Neffen Akt.-Ges. Briensen i. d. Mark (Brandenburg). (Lighting glassware)
Glashüttenwerke vorm. J. Schreiber & Neffen, Zay-Ugrocz, Com. Trenesin (Ungarn). (Crystal)
I will come back to this in asap, as we need to get the data right, see also
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,8679.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4842.0.html
There is an suggestion by Steven to a French origin for SN mark and to it being Souchon Neuvesel and as my catalogue shows vase 253, identical to the pink one on eBay which include the number 253, but does not illustrate the mark, it remains a circumstantial attribution.
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Another one from the catalogue on eBay, also pink http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140246253266
pattern 280 http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150272537689
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These all look like packaging glass for cornichons to me, so the SN may be a gherkin pickler. Souchon Neuvesel used (and still uses) an S in an standing almond shape.
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They are very close to Libochovice examples of the same period and sharing motifs but no matching designs though the rims are nearly identical, if a little higher on these. There is alo a biscuit barrel with metal top and lid in the range.
One different example from their range for Patricia maybe.
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it seems unlikely we'll find out about it from BSN themselves who now are part of something called OI.
Hi Ivo,
It would be worth contacting them for info. Some big French firms have their own archives, as St-Gobain do. The French, generally speaking, tend to hang on to paper-work if the company, in one form or another, still exists.
Regards,
Marcus
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not. there is a published company history which is winging its way here, just be patient, doctor.
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Very interesting Frank, a hyacinth vase we can trace back to the maker?
I'll start picking somebodies brain tomorrow!
Thanks,
Patricia