Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: krsilber on September 17, 2008, 02:31:45 AM
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Once again, I'm intrigued by a piece I can't quite figure out. It's in a thread in the Ebay Pottery, Glass and Porcelain forum, and a few methods have been proposed for the way the texture was done - etching, sandblasting, wheel cut (nixed)...and my totally off the wall hypothesis that something (e.g. clay) was applied to the inside of a mold then tooled to create the features. I don't really believe the hypothesis because I don't know if it's possible...is it even theoretically possible?
Here are links to photos of the piece:
http://www.spiretech.com/~argentpickle/lorraine%201.jpg
http://www.spiretech.com/~argentpickle/lorraine%202.jpg (inside view)
http://www.spiretech.com/~argentpickle/lorraine%204.jpg (bottom, which says Lorraine, France, and has a mark of sorts)
http://www.spiretech.com/~argentpickle/lorraine%205.jpg (another bottom shot)
And a link to the thread: http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?messageID=520365204�
Thanks for any input!
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The mark in the centre is probably the 'FBS' mark.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,183.0.html
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It looks like the mould was decorated with acid etching.
Well spotted on the FBS mark, almost certainly 30s
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I was also wondering about the central portion being an "FBS" mark - but why would it have "Trade Mark" added? If the "FBS" - as it appears in the various ones we know about - was a general requirement for import to (perhaps) the USA, then it seems odd that one version would be stated as a trade mark.
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It isn't an import mark, has to be a wholesaler retailer. So far Trade Mark searches have got nowhere, but more are being added all the time so one day it should show up. Never tried to find it as a Canadian trade mark though...
The acid mark bears no relationship to any of the listed Lorraine marks so must be our old friend again. Perhaps some work with graphite will show up some more of the mark to prove it is the FBS one.
That trade mark has been added is useful but almost every possible variation in how the mark is done has been seen. This example does tend to prove the mark was added by the glass works rather than the importer... although that was already fairly obvious in that the actual design used was consistent per glassworks.
Back to the vase:
Verame used their name as their mark with a large V and the rest vertical down the right of the V.
Verrerie d'Art Lorraine is almost certainly right for this, set up by one of Daum's to produce cheap mass volume including cameo, but the cameo had distinctive markings. The patterning is more consistent with acid etched metal mould rather than etched glass. Are the clear portions raised or depressed. Technique is the same, apply resist and etch but using a different acid.
Search on the board for more about the technique.
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Not really a good match in end result but happened to be close to hand - here is a quick web cam shot of acid etched mould decoration, in this case US c1880 Riverside "Goddess of the Hunt" salver. Patented US technique known as Crystalograph.
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The clear areas are in relief, raised from the surroundings. I'm familiar with etched molds (they're common in Depression glass), but to me this doesn't seem like etching (alone at least) of either the glass or the mold. With etching I'd expect to see "flat" areas of different depths corresponding with the amount of time the mold/glass was in the acid. The topography doesn't look right to me for that, but maybe there's a process I don't know about. The OP describes it like canyon walls in miniature. And the edges of the blank areas are quite sharp, another thing I wouldn't expect with an etched mold. Wouldn't it have to have been pressed to get detail like this to show? Yet there are no mold marks, and you'd think in the process of eliminating them you'd end up getting rid of sharpness in the design.
With sandblasting, on the other hand, you might be able to aim the stream enough to give it more of a carved look. That could be followed by etching to polish it.
As for the mark, I don't get the FBS thing. All I see is a 5 (possibly an S). Am I missing something?
And Verame - a poster who claimed he knew whereof he spoke said Verame was a mystery, and no one even knew for sure whether the company was Czech or French. Is it a mystery? Is Verame = Verrerie d'Art Lorrain?
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No, Verame is a French company making etched and cut glass in the 1930s next to nothing else in Hartmann with reference to dealer source :(
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Clearly the same stamp as this one...
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=183.0;attach=10241;image
...that one doesn't have the word 'TRADEMARK' underneath it though.
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Well found! Yes, the circle with dots and diamonds is the same.
As Frank said, some time we surely must find some info on this mark and all the variations.
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Such a resistant mark ;)
The mould could also have been carved, more expensive then using acid but still cheaper then conventional cameo which fits with the reason that the factory was established. The cameo from that factory was also marked differently. References: Hartmann and Haanstra.
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I had a vase very similar to this, marked 'Lorraine France' and with the FBS 'Trade Mark' stamp which I sold back in 2006. The decoration was certainly acid etched into the vase itself and not moulded. The mark is not consistent with any known marks from Verrereie D'Art Lorrain, most notably there is the addition of the letter 'e' to the end. In fact, at the time, I wondered if the mark was spurious, but seeing another example with a virtually identical mark would suggest that that was not the case. I'll have alook & see if i can retrieve any of my photos for comparison.
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here we are, sorry the base pic is not too clear but I can confirm it was marked 'Lorraine France' in engraved script with an acid stamp FBS mark incorporating TRADE MARK around the bottom of the outer circle.
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Clearly the same stamp as this one...
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=183.0;attach=10241;image
...that one doesn't have the word 'TRADEMARK' underneath it though.
Duh, I knew the diamond/dot circle looked familiar, that's my demitasse! I even reviewed that thread and didn't notice it. ::)
Steven, thanks heaps for the info and the photos. Looks very similar in some ways to the piece in the ebay thread. I wondered about the "e" on the Lorraine too, and surmised that it was there because it's the English spelling, so it makes sense with "France." It's possible that the mark "Lorraine France" is just another part of the wholesaler's mark, like the FBS, so has nothing to do with a maker's mark.
Thanks to Frank, too, for the info about Verame and Verrerie d'Art Lorrain. "The mould could also have been carved, more expensive then using acid but still cheaper then conventional cameo which fits with the reason that the factory was established. " Are you referring here to the Verrerie d'Art Lorrain factory, and saying it was established by Daum for mass-produced type wares? I'm curious what specifically about the piece indicates to you that the design was molded.
Just trying to get the options and their reasoning organized.
I guess I'm not inclined to think that a mold was sculpted (using acid/sand/wheels/chisels) to make this because the clear parts of the glass are proud of the textured ones. This would mean that they were carved into the mold as well, more deeply that the texture was, and it strikes me as a difficult thing to do to get the clear parts nice and even with each other. One alternative is that the form was originally made in wax or plaster, and the mold made from that.
I've requested a close-up of the texture, but will reiterate it.
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I think that those who have suggested that the decoration was achieved mainly with the use of acid are likely to be closest to the mark. However, during that period extraordinary moulds were produced in France with extremely detailed decoration, so it is entirely feasible that some or all of the decoration could have been achieved in the mould.
Different types of acid and different strengths of acid, coupled with how long the glass is left in the acid can give a variety of different textures and these are often mistaken for other techniques.
I am basing this mainly on memories of discussions some years ago with Andrew Cooper MARCA who used to produce extraordinarily beautiful panels. I commissioned two of these in the eighties and he was very careful to point out the 7 different textures he had achieved mainly by using different strengths of acid and different resists. He also used different levels and grades of sandblasting and acid etched these as well. They were installed in the front door frame of our family gallery at 192 Piccadilly. After we moved they remained there for some years, but a few years ago a tenant, obviously unaware of their provenance, removed them.
I do have a vague memory of Antonin Daum explaining the technique of a similar vase to me back in the seventies, but I am afraid I can't remember the details.
As I prefer to get my fingers burnt the conventional way, I have never tried acid etching so have no direct experience to relate.
The trouble about some of these techniques is that there is often more than one way to achieve a similar result, and unless one was there or has first hand knowledge it is often impossible to be 100% accurate.
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Is Verame = Verrerie d'Art Lorrain?
Oops, I meant, is Verame = Verrerie d'Art de Metz? That was suggested by a member of the Ebay PGP forum, and according to a few French ebay auctions it's true. Both these show the sig:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/COUPE-REHAUSSE-SIGNEE-VERAME-EN-VERRE-FUME_W0QQitemZ260283782269QQihZ016QQcategoryZ146801QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/Magnifique-vase-Art-Deco-VERAME_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ130232490802
...While I was writing this, Adam posted (I was hoping to hear from you!). I agree that it was probably acid etched, as least as part of the process. I guess I'm still inclined to believe some other process, probably sandblasting, was combined with it. So hard to tell without seeing it in person...and as you say, different techniques can look much the same.
Those panels sound awesome. I don't suppose you have any photos handy? It would be very interesting to see the different textures achieved with acid, and how the sandblasting was incorporated into it.
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Unfortunately no images. :(
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In my opinion, all of that decoration was in the mold. I've seen moldmakers work on these things for days chasing them with fine files and chisels. they were capable of doing some very interesting things. Many were cast iron and were made from wooden patterns. This decoration would not have taken that long to make in wood and then cast in iron. I still have a wood model or two that were used to make cast iron molds. after casting in iron they were then tooled by the moldmaker to very exacting patterns and finished off very well. I have some molds that are extremely detailed that I'm sure were done this way.
Tom Fuhrman
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is Verame = Verrerie d'Art de Metz
Seems like a good 'logical' match, perhaps this has been resolved in French literature and just not yet crossed the language barrier, worth asking those sellers where they get the attribution if someone's French is up to it! Or does anyone have a copy of Christophe Bardin - Daum 1878-1939. Une Industrie d'art Lorraine. Metz, Serpenoise, 2004. isbn 2-87692-590-7 as a possible source?
Perhaps Carolus Hartmann has partly resolved that link since his book, see here http://www.lamp-antik.de/Register/Glasmarken/Verame.htm which is in the exact format Hartmann uses - you would need to subscribe to his site to get the reference he based it on.
Chiseled wood sounds good too but the fluidity of the texture is what made me think acid on the mould. The two Verame examples also exhibit interesting texturing. But with a skilled carver you can achieve any effect in wood that its structure can hold. Because of the complexity I felt that the decoration is most probably from the mould and mould makers are used to work in the reversed world.
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Allow me to repeat: I have handled one of these 'Lorraine France' vases and the design was acid etched not moulded.
Of course it is possible to achieve a similar effect using a mould and Adam is right to point out the expertise of the French mouldmakers of the period - a number of pieces were made with moulded decoration imitating acid etching/ cutting (Lalique's Vase Meandres and a few Verlys patterns spring to mind, as does this unknown vase where the bands are moulded not etched http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2847). It is usually impossible to tell from a photograph which technique was used, the key is to handle the piece. Acid etched decoration is noticeably 'sharper' than even the best moulded work and small imperfections where the acid resist coat has failed or been applied unevenly are often seen.
A number of surface finishes are achievable using acid, remember, the French were masters at acid cameo work so clearly had great expertise in using acid etching/ reduction techniques to decorate glass. An interesting example of the variety of finishes and techniques seen is displayed by the range of press moulded loop/ arc handled vases which, according to Cappa (See Le Genie Verrier de L'Europe, deuxieme ed., nos. 396 & 397, p.235), were designed by Pierre D'Avesn for Daum. I have seen a number of decorative finishes on these pieces, which all come from the same basic mould.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10690 shows an undecorated example, http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10689 an example with horizontal bands acid etched into the surface and http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10688 is an example where the surface has an etched wave effect, seemingly achieved by applying the resist in a pattern of dots and allowing the acid to run over the surface.
Steven
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Adam, that's too bad you don't have images of your panels - for your sake, as well as ours! I wonder what happened to them.
Tom, I think the wooden positive is a really strong possibility, thanks for suggesting it. I've been thinking that the texture looks tooled. I've done some wood carving myself, and can see how that would work. Even the form of the bowl looks like it was done on a lathe (though I suppose that's nothing new). I imagine that it was etched some as well, as least to acid polish it, and perhaps to smooth the texture and sharpen the borders of the clear areas (in conjunction with resist). I think this is my favorite hypothesis yet.
Care to post a photo or two of your wooden pieces from which molds were made? That would be a nice thing to have in the gallery. I've got one of the steel etching plates you sold, and another member of the GMB has one, too. Such a cool piece of glass history to have!
Frank, I agree that the complexity suggests a molded piece. This doesn't seem the type of work you'd expect a lot of time would have been spent on. Tooling in conjunction with acid etching (of the mold or glass or both) would account for the complexity as well as the smoothness. And if it was the positive that was tooled, the mold maker wouldn't have had to work in reverse. Nifty!
Tom, Adam, and anyone else - I'm still curious about the theoretical feasibility of putting something (clay or plaster or putty?) on the inside of a mold and tooling it. Just wondering whether it would be possible, not whether it was used in this case.
Thanks everybody for all your input. You guys are great! I love this stuff!
...Steven posted while I was writing, that's why this is tacked onto the bottom.
I don't think anyone would argue that it wasn't possible to achieve many kinds of texture with acid. I think it's more the complexity of the textured bits here that argues for molding. With acid you typically get different levels of more or less flat (textured) surfaces, whereas this looks like the levels blend into one another. It may not be impossible to achieve with acid, but it seems like it would be quite difficult.
Even though the marks are very similar, we don't know that they indicate the same maker, although it seems quite likely. Still, that doesn't mean that the same techniques were used on both pieces.
That one with the fish scale type effect is interesting! Another one that makes ya think.