Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: citrusheightskid on September 23, 2008, 11:25:39 PM
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Hey guys everyone!
I'm new to the board and I am trying to find some information about a vase.
This vase has been in the family since the 1950's. We've done some homework on it but we can't find much about it.
The vase is called "The Waterfall" and it's either by Fredrick Kny or Ludwig Kny. We found a little bit of information in a book called "From Broad-Glass to Cut Crystal - A History of the Strourbridge Glass Industry" by D.R. Guttery.
The book is vague as far as when it was created and if it's one of a kind. The book refers to another piece called the 'Elgin' Claret Jug by F.E. Kny, 1873
If anyone can provide me some information about "The Waterfall" would be great. I can get some pictures posted if it'll help.
Thanks!!
Erik
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The Elgin Jug was engraved with a frieze of Greek horsemen by Frederick Englebert Kny and completed in 1873 Exhibited at the Paris International Exhibition 1878. Webb's regarded it as one of his finest pieces.
(http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/233868ba9ba9c4191ad01017db395469.jpg) Image courtesy the Glass-Study.
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Here's a scan of the Vase that I'm looking to find more information about. This is from the book.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/TheWaterfall1.jpg
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Is that an exact match to your vase? Could you add a picture of yours please.
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I'll be taking photos today and posting them.
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Can't wait to see the photos!
Looks to me like Ludwig was one of Frederick's sons, and he was chief designer for Stuart (http://www.cambridgeglassfair.com/exhibitions/pastexhibitions/2006-02-stuart.htm). It's possible the vase with the fish pictured in plate 33 in Guttery is one-of-a-kind, but based on the simplicity of the design probably not likely, I'd say. Looks like a production cutting to me. It's a far cry from the Elgin jug...although even that design appears to come in multiples! Between Guttery and Hadjamach there are 4 photos of Elgin pieces, all based on the Elgin marbles (haven't looked into that yet, but assume they are Roman). There are two Elgin vases, one engraved by F.E. Kny and one that appears to be etched and engraved by Northwood, the Elgin claret engraved by F.E. Kny, and an Elgin jug etched by Northwood (1862, apparently the first one finished). All similar but different.
That's all off-topic, but I found it rather interesting.
I'm confused about how you've identified the fish vase as Waterfall.
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Elgin pieces, all based on the Elgin marbles (haven't looked into that yet, but assume they are Roman).
The Elgin Marbles are in fact Greek, and one of the most contentious issues for UK- Greek international relations. It is long overdue that the Elgin Marbles be returned to Athens, by the British Museum.
Regards,
Marcus
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Thanks, Marcus. I had a niggling little thought saying they were Greek as soon as I wrote that, but ignored it. Now I'm curious, I'll have to look into it more.
...Ah, wunnerful Wiki. I see Byron even wrote a poem denouncing the removal by Elgin:
Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!
Oh, geez, now I'm really OT. Sorry, no more about the Elgin stuff, I promise.
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Okay Guys!
Here's the pictures that I took.
Hopefully these will help identify this.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish1.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish4.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish5.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish6.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish7.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish8.jpg
Thanks for all the help guys!!
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Thanks for showing photos, Erik.
One thing I note is that the fish shown in the Guttery book (Plate 33) has far fewer spots on the back than the same one on your vase. If I am right about that, it indicates that this vase was most probably a production piece.
It is very well engraved and from memory a Stuart & Son fish vase (different design) that I saw in auction many years ago showed me how the quality of the work was much better than any photo could suggest.
I agree with Kristi's query - on how you have identified this vase as being "The Waterfall". As you say, Guttery's text is a bit vague and as far as I can tell, although the vase is shown in plate 33, there is no text referring to that image. On page 145, the mention of "The Waterfall" (by Frederick Kny) is marked with a footnote stating, "Now in possession of his son, Mr F. Kny of Amblecote." To my mind, that suggests "The Waterfall" vase was indeed a one-off and was probably one of the Rock Crystal pieces which are the main discussion of that section of the book.
The plate 33 image in Guttery's book is annotated, "Pieces designed by Ludwig Kny (son of F. E. Kny)". Whether that means that Ludwig Kny was also the engraver of those fish vases is not clear.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to consult Broadfield House Glass Museum. They may have further information on the Stuart & Sons range of fish vases.
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Lovely vase! Beautifully engraved. Ditto all that Kev said, it's just what I was going to say.
Oh, and by the way, welcome to the board! Thanks for sharing your photos. Engraved glass is my (main) passion. Got any more? ;);D
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Erik — See Benson & Hayhurst, Art Deco to Post Modernism — A Legacy of British Art Deco Glass, 2003, items 36 (11¼" fish vase, slightly different fish) and 40 (9¼" similar fish bowl).
Nigel Benson was aware of your source, two others, and the Stuart pattern book entry, when he wrote the description, and, although his work can be a trifle disorganised, he would have picked up on a name like The Waterfall, so please would you double check your information. Nigel notes that few examples are known, probably as it would have been prohibitively expensive to produce. He dates it from the late '30s to the mid-60s.
Ludwig Kny was chief designer at Stuart when this pattern was launched, until his untimely demise in 1936. So he would have been involved with this vase, but not necessarily as the engraver. Nigel would have mentioned it if he had been able to prove that early examples were Kny's own engraving.
Bernard C. 8)
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The name "The Waterfall" was the name given by my grandmother. It's been in her possession since the 1950's. The vase was found in an underground safe of a house that had burnt down. The owner's last name was Masters.
The story goes that when my grandmother was younger, the Lady Master's house had burnt down. Ms Masters said that anything recovered from the fire, could be kept. So my great grandfather had found the vase in a safe under the house. He snagged it, not knowing any true information about it. So we don't know if it's a one of a kind, we don't know if it's a production piece. The only information we've found about it was from that book.
I'm thankful for all the help you guys have given. It's just one of those things that we're trying to figure out.
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What an interesting history it has! How fortunate it was kept in a safe.
It does appear to be a production piece, and not the same Waterfall vase that was done by Frederick Kny. As Kev pointed out, Guttery noted that one was in possession of Amblecote when the book was written in the 1950s, and it sounds like a one-off piece. I wonder if it was sheer coincidence that your grandmother called this one Waterfall as well. How confusing!
I found another example of the design in a photo about 3/4 of the way down this page:
http://www.20thcentury-glass.com/exhibitions/exhibition-cutglass.htm
By the way, how big is it?
Did you notice that Guttery shows on pg. 111 the other F Kny piece mentioned in the same sentence as Waterfall, Hunting the Eagle? Makes you wonder what Waterfall looks like!
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Erik — I've checked your recent photographs against item 36 in Benson & Hayhurst, and I was wrong above — it is the same, allowing for the usual minor variations of a handmade piece of art. So, if your vase is reasonably close to a height of 11¼", then it's Stuart pattern number (from their 1964 trade catalogue) is 27829. This looks like a late 1930s pattern number to me, which indicates that the design should be attributed to Ludwig Kny's successor as chief designer, Reginald Pierce, and his team.
Kristi — On that web page note how Nigel also illustrates the same thick blank used for a rare deeply cut geometric piece in Art Deco style, featuring the classic Ludwig Kny intaglio outlining of the main cuts.
Nigel's very useful book is available via his website (http://www.20thcentury-glass.com/index.htm). I have no hesitation in recommending it as an important reference to a mid C20 movement away from the classic British "Death by a thousand cuts" style. Don't expect perfection; Nigel was breaking new ground here, so keep a sharpened pencil with it for inserting corrections and marginal notes. My two copies (travelling box plus library) have recouped the initial investment over ten-fold, and I must remember to buy another before it goes out of print, as it is one of those books that I will eventually wear out.
Bernard C. 8)
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Bernard,
Thank you for your kind comments about the catalogue that Jeanette Hayhurst and I produced for the exhibition of cut glass that we undertook in 2003. I also note your comments regarding corrections and would be very interested to liaise about your thoughts and notes as I am always happy to learn :)
As for your comments about the design being by Pierce and not Kny since the pattern number is late 1930’s, that is a difficult one.
There is a typed page in the Broadfield House Glass Museum archive which references the Redhouse Museum Catalogue and “Cut Fancies”. Pattern number 27207 is listed as being C1936 (27185 being 1935 – no ‘circa’) and pattern number 28008 is 1937, again, no ‘circa’.
We therefore have a problem with the dating of the Fish vase with great accuracy, but it does indicate that it is possible either designer might be credited with the vase. However, since Pierce took over the role of chief designer in 1937 I would suggest that Kny is the more likely of the two. It all depends on when in 1937 the 28008 pattern number was used.
The other vase you refer to (cat no 39), using the same blank, uses outline cutting similar to item 14 in the catalogue. Under that reference Jeanette notes that outlined cutting first appeared in Job Book no. 1236, for late 1934. This has always been referred to as a Ludwig Kny trait and certainly that deeply swirling cut with outline cutting (also on the front cover) conforms to that attribution. Note that the technique was also used by John Luxton on occasion.
There is another design, using a version of the blank, illustrated in “20th Century Factory Glass”, by L Jackson, on page 201. The caption says attributed to Ludwig Kny, but I also have one of these vases which is acid marked with Stuart, as well as “Designed L Kny”. Note the outlined mitre cutting around the design below the rim.
It is probable that all these large vases were made to order, or in the Jackson versions case, are from an exhibition, such as Harrods “Modern Art for the Table” or “Art in Industry”, held at the Royal Academy. Alternatively, the fish vase might have been used as a window piece at somewhere like Harrods (certainly this was done later with Isle of Wight glass and the two large Jazz pattern vases by Timothy Harris).
Finally, I am not currently aware of a factory given name for the fish vase, nor am I aware that Kny produced his own cutting or engraving. Current knowledge says the he was only a designer and did not execute his own work.
Nigel
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Erik
Just noticed. No, it is not a one-off, I know of several other versions.
Nigel
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Here's another example of the Stuarts fish vase ... sold in 1993 ...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pid=10864&fullsize=1
The auction description for Lot 659 (Day 2 of the sale) was: STUARTS clear glass tapering cylindrical vase, on circular foot, body externally engraved with three fish in simulated water (trademark to base), 11.5" high x 7" diameter (Plate XVI).
(The dimensions in metric would be 28cm x 17.8cm)
I had that one marked down as a possible purchase but I did not bid on it. It sold for £390 hammer price and there was 10% Buyer's Premium + 17.5% VAT on the Premium giving a total cost of £435.82. How that 1993 price would compare to today's market is unknown to me.
I found that image by chance while I was looking for something else. But my memory was stirred because on the right of my picture is Lot 661 - a Lalique Vase, which I bought. A few weeks after the auction I visited the Victoria & Albert Museum in London and in the gift shop I saw ... a few of the same Lalique vases in their gift boxes ... and at a price less than I had paid at the auction. Ooops :spls: I still have the vase and I smile whenever I look at it!