Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: kazucu on September 27, 2008, 12:23:34 PM
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Does anyone have any information on this item ? It looks like it is signed "Royo" and handpainted and enamelled. Is this a modern fake?
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Royo is modern, use search function to learn all about them.
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I believe we have confirmation that these Royo pieces were made by Gordiola of Mallorca, Spain, but I don't think we know exactly when?
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Spanish yes, but not from Mallorca - I thought they were from Catalunya (probably Barcelona).
My auntie is Spanish and lives in Barcelona - I'll get my Mum to ask her about Royo next time she rings.
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16648.msg129555.html#msg129555
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How confusing! So do I take it from your link Frank that they came from Mallorca but carried a 'Made in Catalunya' label?
::)
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I think the labels say Arte Catalan Made in Spain, which I take to mean Catalan style art. Ivo wrote to Gordiola and got confirmation that they make Royo, and JP found a piece marked Gordiola Majorca that was identical to a Royo piece he owned. See this thread (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20531.0.html). Here is the website www.gordiola.com (http://www.gordiola.com)
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Strange! LOL
I'll still ask my auntie though, she may have more info, you never know.
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As long as she doesn't charge you the cost of a bit of island travel in the name of research ;D
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LOL she prefers the Canaries actually! I wish I'd known about Royo three years ago, we went to Majorca for the New Year - I would have enjoyed doing a bit of sleuthing.
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Well, to add a bit more confusion...
Pieces that looked like Royo style glass were said to be imported by Ardalt from the Gordiola glassworks in Mallorca to the US in 1960-61. That seems very easy, BUT there was no mention that the pieces were signed Royo or Cire** (Cirere? Cirese?). From what a friend in Spain told me, the enamel on this 1960 glass was not as thick as the enamel we typically see on the Royo glass. So maybe the 1960 glass was a reproduction of an earlier Spanish glass? or maybe there were different qualities of glass exported to the different markets? It is hard to know for sure, because no one is 'fessing up.
One thing I think we can say with some degree of certainty is that the glass probably is from Spain. Maybe soon we can pin it all to Mallorca. The Arte Catalan we see on labels may simply refer to the style. (I think there was also a fine arts show of that name in Barcelona, wasn't there?)
Anita
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amazing that it does not occur to anyone to check out the status of the Balearic islands, which are part of Cataluña. The fact that the language there is Catalá should tell you something. What Gordiola confirmed to me is that Royo was a Catalan decorator who worked in the Mudejar style, but they could not say when the Royo and Cire glass has been in production. Circa 1960 onward had been my guess - in any case the production stopped long time ago and is completely out of the shops - though the regular Gordiola staple can still be found. With a little imagination you can assume circa 1960-1990 as production dates.
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You're quite right Ivo, what a dunce I am. I just never associate the Balearics with Catalunya or the Catalan language.
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Hi,
Just to put a slightly different aspect on this. I have sold a number of these Royo items over the years, both when all the evidence was that they were made by Moser for the wealthy Spanish in the 1920's and in the period since that evidence was almost totally disproved. I have found there is still a real market out there for these attractive pieces, Moser or not. The last 3 pieces I sold were actually all purchased by an Antique dealer in Barcelona and went for between £25 and £30. Good prices I think, but surely true Moser enamelled items would have fetched treble this price at least. Having just seen this elephant I realised that an identical piece has been sitting in my mother-in-law's glass cabinet for donkey's years. >:D ;D
Bryn
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I think the Moser myth is so old and has been repeated in so many places that it will be a while before it is accepted. Now if you check the catalogue raisonné for Legras you will find Royo pieces which the writers attribute to Legras but which Legras carelessly forgot to document...
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if you check the catalogue raisonné for Legras you will find Royo pieces which the writers attribute to Legras but which Legras carelessly forgot to document...
;D ;D ;D
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I believe that the Royo pieces will hold their value even if the cord to Moser is cut. I have sold quite a few of these pieces. I was never comfortable with the Moser semi-attribution, but I put it in the listings until I knew better. Most of the people I sold to were ardent Royo-style collectors, so it didn't matter if there was a Moser connection or not.
I do not think the name Cire is correct. Very few of the sigs I see look like Cire. They look like Cirere or Cirese (or Eirese). I think the name is another inaccuracy.
Many sellers are on this board, so what we write in our descriptions changes what people know. On eBay I think it is best to list the glass as Royo-style Spanish in the "Other Countries" art glass category. People who are looking for Royo will find it. People who are looking for Moser won't be disappointed down the line when they learn Moser had nothing to do with the glass. People adapt quickly when they want to buy something.
Now if we can only get past this economy problem. Personally my Royo and other business has gone to zero.
Empty pockets,
Anita
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I I think it is best to list the glass as Royo-style Spanish
as there is a full 100% reliable attribution I think you can safely use that.
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Before letting this thread rest, I wanted to add something about some Royo-type candle lantern chimneys that are popping up on eBay. They have a small, very good Moser etched onto the glass. The signature has been judged to be a forgery by an expert in Spain. I included a picture of one of the whole lanterns that I recently sold to a Royo collector. The sig on this lamp was used to determine that the sig was forged. I now consider any Moser sig on a Royo piece to be a scratch! (I also had a vase that had an acid-etched sig on bottom that looked very real. People are very clever when there are a few dollars to be made.)
Anita
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Do you scratch a line through the dodgy signature or leave it be? I had a Bagley vase with a fake Tapio Wirkkala signature on it - I sold the vase correctly IDd but before I did I scratched a line through the 'signature'. I wonder if this is something that we should all be doing with fake sigs?
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I wouldn't add anymore insult to the forged glass. I've seen a Loetz vase that had a signature scratched out (probably LCT) and it looked so bad. I think sellers should just report the forgery "scratches" like any other damage and hope that the glass doesn't show up on eBay. Really, we can't control what happens to glass after it leaves our hands. We can only hope that things fall -- I mean, land gently -- into honest hands.
Anita
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My opinion is that once a piece of glass has had a fake signature added then it's already been defaced - scoring through the faked signature might make someone think twice about it in the future. Obviously I have no way of knowing when someone buys something from me that has been honestly described as having a fake signature that they won't relist it saying the signature is genuine. Personally I'd rather not take the risk - I'm going to continue to score through faked signatures (not that I get lots of things like that mind - in the few years I've been trading I've only had 2 items with faked sigs anyway).
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Adding scratches could weaken the item, not a significant risk but still a risk. After it falls apart is too late to quantify it ;)
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easy come easy go Frank :-)
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I've got one signed "Daum Prance" - the P being the Peill & Putzler mark....
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There's another potential problem with marking out the forgeries on the Royo pieces. Suppose on down the road that we find out that Moser did do some of the pieces and that the sigs are not really forgeries. People -- even the experts -- do make mistakes. So I would let the sigs stay as they are until we get some documented word. The Royo lantern chimneys are signed on the side amonst the enameling. The sig is tiny, so unless one is looking, it is invisible. Scratching it out would deface the glass and make it mighty ugly. I guess one has to make decisions piece by piece.
Anita
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A few years ago I had a genuine Loetz Neptun vase with a fake Loetz signature. The only thing I scratched was my head, wondering why someone would do that. :huh:
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Then of course there are the numerous pieces of Poschinger stretch glass that have spurious Poschinger (some misspelled Poshinger) signatures scratched haphazardly on the bottom. The theory I think is most likely is that the "signatures" were put there to warn collectors of stretch glass that these are somewhat modern pieces rather than something older and more rare.