Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: TxSilver on October 27, 2008, 02:41:37 AM
-
I just heard from a friend of mine in Spain. She spoke with an antique dealer, who told her the "Cire" signature on some of the glass is Cirera. I thought it looked like Cirere and Cirese, so I believe that the antique dealer is right. Thought I would pass along the information for anyone who is interested. I wonder if Cirera is any relation to Roman Cirera, the painter. I could locate only a small amount of information on the name.
-
I received the following email from Hazel in Spain about Cirera today:
"Guy's name is Genís (that's an accent over the i and not a dot) Cirera (1890 -1970). So he was decorating from about the 1920's but there's no real way of determining how old a particular piece is.
Info is courtesy of the same Spanish antique dealer who's now doing research on my behalf. She's also 99.9% positive he's Mallorcan and Moser isn't anywhere to be found. The natives though, which I thought you might find particularly interesting, do refer to it as "Catalan Art"."
She also sent the following link to a piece of his glass. http://www.todocoleccion.net/copa-cristal-pintado-firmada-cirera~x1970285
-
What's the relationship between Cirera and Royo, if any?
It's struck me before that there's a wide range of quality in Royo pieces (and a lot of it, for a single person to produce!). I wonder whether he might have been the designer, and others helped do the enamel work. Maybe the same with Cirera?
Nice to get to the bottom of this question!
-
What's the relationship between Cirera and Royo, if any?
You have the same thought as I do. It may be that Cirera and Royo don't really have anything to do with each other. I don't know if they may have worked for the same company at one time, or if they may have independently decorated glass for a certain market. My first piece of this type of glass was a Cirera piece -- a decanter with stylized deer. It was the best quality piece I have handled. I would have to look over all my pictures to see if this is a general trend or if the decanter was just a particularly nice one.
-
I checked pictures of my Cirera and Royo pieces. I also looked at some pieces online. Maybe it is my imagination, but the ones with the Cirera sig look brighter and more heavily enameled than the Royo pieces. Has anyone else noticed this?
-
I kinda see what you mean. Cirera seems to use a lot of bold reds and blues, black and white, and the designs a bit more chaotic. Royo has lots of cute little birdies and flowers, lots of pastels. That's my general impression, anyway.
I looked at a dozen Royos just now, and they all say Moser. Crazy what one little mistake in a book can lead to.
-
I looked at a dozen Royos just now, and they all say Moser. Crazy what one little mistake in a book can lead to.
That is so true. Apparently the Moser sigs are forgeries. I won't say definitely because it may be someone finds out something that changes our minds completely. I don't think that will happen, though. The forged sigs reminded me of something I ran into with one of my Czech vases that is probably Kralik. I guess to convince people that it was Kralik, someone crudely cut the arc-like Czechoslovakia sig on the bottom. It looks terrible. The funny thing is that they had no idea of all the various ways the word is written. It has two zz's and no middle syllable. Kind of funny. The vase would have been perfect without the ugly scratch! ::)
I think people would recognize the Royo pieces without an extra Moser sig just as people would recognize a probably-Kralik vase.
-
Royo = Gordiola glassworks Algaida Majorca .anyone want a bet. JP :sleep:
-
Hazel sent a bit more information. There is some information about Cirera at http://www.angelsegurasole.net/. The Foto section has some things made by Cirera. I don't read Spanish, but was told that the Contemporanis section has some information on both Cirera and Royo. It looks like Cirera had his own glassworks.
Another link, http://www.todocoleccion.net/recipiente-vidrio-esmaltado-firmado-royo~x10107161, has an auction of a Royo piece made in 1977. So... it looks like Royo was painting substantially later than Cirera was if the dates are all correct.
Another vessel at http://www.todocoleccion.net/aceitera-detalles-estilo-murano~x10380463 is probably Royo, although it is called Murano.
-
getting a bit nervous about too much speculation and confusion.
The first link you give is the Catalá home page for enamel artist Angel Segura Solé, who worked both on pottery and glass. Hot enamel decoration was first put on the map by Núria and Euda Solé (most likely mother and aunt of Angel) who took part in the 1925 Art Deco exhibition in Paris. Then, at the 1929 Barcelona exhibition work of Catalan hot enamel artists Lluís Rigalt, Joan Sales, Ricard Crespo, Pere Brugués and Josep Gual was shown.
Royo is listed in the artist section of 7 Catalan enamel artists, but no further details such as dates or locations are given. The full list is Josep Mª Gol i Creus, Àngel Segura Solé (1912), Joan Cervera Martí (1912), Miquel Fruitós (1921), Royo, Francesc Elías i Bracons (1892), and Ramón Sunyer i Clarà.
Cirera is mentioned as a brand name: Àngel Segura, Mercé Cirera and Royo worked under that brand.
The second link you give shows an enameled bowl signed by Royo in 1977.
The third link you give shows a standard oil bottle made by the Gordiola glassworks in Mallorca.
-
Thanks for the help translating, Ivo. The link was indecipherable to one who does not read Spanish. I neglected to say the link was the site of a noted Spanish decorator.
-
"Firmes de marca
- Enric Riera
- Cirera (Àngel Segura, Mercé Cirera, Royo)
- Gordiola – Mallorca"
I'm confused. Here Royo is listed under the trademark Cirera, separate from Gordiola. But Royo has been confirmed as working for Gordiola, right? So are all three of these part of Gordiola? Or did Royo move to/from Cirera from/to Gordiola?
-
I don't think it has been confirmed that Royo was with Gordiolas Glassworks. I believe that it was said he was probably from Mallorca, but other than that he was a mystery. The 5-spout vase in another thread (unknown artist) was probably from the Gordiolas Glassworks. All of this is in the same general area, so it gets kind of confusing. I have received a few new links, but I'll hold off and try to put them all together if they aren't in Spanish. It will keep if from being so confusing. It will still all be speculative, though, so I can see people grasping their heads. :)
-
I was referring to this thread - "Just had a mail from Jesús Fernández at Gordiola who confirms that the Royo pieces were indeed made by Gordiola, and decorated at the oven in enamel folk themes by catalan artist Royo." (Ivo's post #23):
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20531.20.html
I don't read Spanish either...could it be that Royo worked separately, and just used Gordiola glass? I don't know if that question was ever really addressed.
-
I don't think it has been confirmed that Royo was with Gordiolas Glassworks
Groan
Please note that this HAS been confirmed and that the place is called Gordiola not Gordiolas.
Now will you please STOP this speculation. It serves no purpose at all and just irritates me.
-
I was referring to this thread - "Just had a mail from Jesús Fernández at Gordiola who confirms that the Royo pieces were indeed made by Gordiola, and decorated at the oven in enamel folk themes by catalan artist Royo." (Ivo's post #23):
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20531.20.html
I don't read Spanish either...could it be that Royo worked separately, and just used Gordiola glass? I don't know if that question was ever really addressed.
You are right, Kristi. I had already set the earlier things aside. It is nice to learn about the Cirera side of things. I am finding the work very interesting.
-
I don't think it has been confirmed that Royo was with Gordiolas Glassworks
Groan
Please note that this HAS been confirmed and that the place is called Gordiola not Gordiolas.
Now will you please STOP this speculation. It serves no purpose at all and just irritates me.
I disagree that speculation serves no purpose. Speculation is what raised the question about Royo being Gordiola in the first place. It is different from drawing conclusions based on unconfirmed or questionable information, which I think may be a problem with this thread. For instance there is conflicting information about the first name of Cirera - one source says it's Genís, and one says it's Mercé. (Speculation: Are these two different people?) And to repeat my earlier question, what's the story here:
Firmes de marca
- Enric Riera
- Cirera (Àngel Segura, Mercé Cirera, Royo)
- Gordiola – Mallorca
...............................................
Ivo - did you ever hear anything more than this from the Gordiola people:
Efectivamente, estas piezas estan realizadas por Vidrios Gordiola, y
decoradas en pintura artesanal al horno por Royo (personaje catalán) .
En otro e-mail le informaré de la época.
My Spanish is weak... does this actually say Royo worked for Gordiola? It's hard to know without the context of the question. Seems like it could be saying, "These pieces were made by Gordiola Glassworks and decorated with fired enamel by Catalan Royo." If that's the correct translation and that's all the information you were given, it doesn't necessarily mean Royo worked at Gordiola. I'm probably missing some important bit.
...............................................
At any rate, I think the Cirera topic needs further research to be able to make any definite conclusions. I applaud Anita's efforts to find out who Cirera was, but I do think she should be careful about interpreting Spanish. For instance, "Another vessel at http://www.todocoleccion.net/aceitera-detalles-estilo-murano~x10380463 is probably Royo, although it is called Murano." It's not called Murano, it says it's in the style of Murano. And I don't see any evidence of this: "It looks like Cirera had his own glassworks."
-
A lot of the problem, I believe, is that I am not filling in the information that is in the links I am providing. I'll try to link it together better.
Cirera was apparently born Genis Cirera-Casonovas in 1890, Badalona, and died in 1970 or 1979, Barcelona. From the curriculum vita of Angel Segura we learn that Segura worked at Cristalleries Llige when he returned to Barcelona in 1929. If my translation is correct, he worked under Genis Cirera for about a year at Llige. Later in 1932, Cirera invited Segura to collaborate with him at Cirera's new shop (or studio). This would help explain why the 1930s photographs on the Segura site look like the pieces made by Cirera. They were probably either made with him or were inspired by work Segura did while with Cirera.
The pieces I have seen by Cirera have been dated 1920s-1940s, but he probably did later work. None of this is speculation, really. It is just putting the pieces together. I believe that Deborah Truitt did a good bit of research on the topic already. I have a little of the information she gathered, but am not sure how it relates to the Cirera years. It would probably just be confusing to try to merge all the information without filling in the gaps first.
-
I think it's about time we summarised what we do and do not know about Moser/Cire/Royo. There's no speculation in here just data confirmed by outside sources and our own observation; plus too many unanswered questions. It would be great if anyone could add to this list or answer any of the questions.
Firstly, what we know and can be confirmed:
1. The signature, commonly referred to as "Cire", is actually Cirera
2. There is no provable link between Moser and the Cirera/Royo signatures
3. An New York City importer (Ardalt) was selling similar glassware in the 1960's but have since gone out of business
4. The Gordiola glassworks made Royo-signed items
5. Some Royo and Cirera pieces are similar in design and shape
6. No cruets (with the bird stoppers) have been found with the Royo signature - they are all signed Cirera
7. The quality of the decoration on the pieces varies significantly
8. Spanish antique dealers attribute the signature "Cirera" to a Catalan artist whose full name is Genis Cirera Cassanovas (b1890 in Badalona - d 1970 in Barcelona)
9. Pieces signed "Royo" have been found, which are dated after the death of Genis Cirera
10. Gordiola say that Royo is a Catalan artist
11. Work signed Cirera commands high prices in Spain
12. Both Royo and Cirera are linked to another Spanish glass artist, namely Angel Segura Sole
13. The Royo signature also appears on ceramics
What we don't know (but are trying to find out)
1. Is Royo also the name of a company or group of artists? If not, he was very prolific.
2. What is the full name of Royo? There should be at least 3 names - first name, father's surname, mother's surname.
2. If Royo is Catalan, was he working in Majorca or were the Gordiola blanks imported to Catalonia? If the latter, why not use a local company?
3. Is Cirera also the name of a company or group of artists?
4. Did Gordiola make all the pieces carrying the Royo signature?
5. Did Gordiola make all of/any blanks for the Cirera signed pieces?
6. Where did the American importer, Ardalt, get their stock and are there any photographs?
7. Are all the items signed "Cirera" by Genis?
-
Don't know 2
I think Royo being Catalan is probably correct. It is possible that some/all Mallorcans may consider themselves to be Catalans because that's the official language of the island (along with Spanish). Or he may have been from Catalonia on the mainland. It's all Spain. So I think you can discard No 2 as being a red herring. It's bit like saying Gordon Brown (UK PM) is Scottish, so why is he working in London, England!?
-
I guess that would be the second Number 2? ;D
I might add one more question - who's the Mercé Cirera mentioned on this site?
http://www.angelsegurasole.net/
(under Contemporanis)
BTW, after looking around more, I withdraw my earlier opinion that Royo and Cirera have distinctive styles. It may be the case, but I realized that there was a lot more overlap than I was aware of.
-
The origins of Royo are, at the moment, not known, therefore it is an unanswered question.
Moderator: edited in line with Board Policy
-
The source of Royo has been resolved, see above and related thread. Although there are many details to be uncovered.
-
My understanding from the previous conversation, including the info direct from Gordiola, is that we know Royo used their blanks, but do we know for a fact that Royo worked for Gordiola? Not sure what is meant by "origins" or "source."
-
Yes, we do have the one email from Gordiola. We don't have the email that initiated this response so I'm not clear what was asked. I agree with Kristi and would also add that we don't know whether Gordiola is saying it made all the blanks signed Royo. Given the similarities between some of the Royo-signed work and Cirera-signed work it is possible more than one glassworks is involved but I don't want to speculate Ivo ;D
And, of course, we still don't know who or what Royo is. I think if we can track him/her/them/it down then this would be a massive leap forward.
I have written to Gordiola to say, that as Royo worked for them, please could they tell me his full name. No reply yet though but that seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.
-
All of this is highly speculative - especially if you introduce unfounded production related quantities like "used blanks" or "more than one glassworks involved". I'd rather wait for proper information before adding to the already impressive amount of desinformation on the subject.
Cirera signed his pieces 'al talon' - so on the bottom, not in the decoration. I've only ever seen "Cire" signed pieces - so for all I know this could be the (highly estimated) CIRE decoration workshop of the Catalan prison authorities, or it could be Cirera's own workshop which operated until 1960. Or even the Joan Cervera workshop - Why speculate?
If you google with some refinement you get "José Cire Royo" as the artist - but only in English language websites, not in Catalá. So another potential misinformation. All these names are quite common in all Catalan regions, so no conclusion can be drawn. If Royo is still alive he will be in his nineties. Mercedes may be or may not be the daughter of Genis. I will let you know if this information becomes available. Not before.
The glass documentation centre of the Museo de Artes Decorativas in Barcelona is currently working on it - so leave it with them.
-
I am certain that the glass documentation center does not mind if others look into the creation of the glass. To try to censor people's words is not necessary. Personally I appreciate the work that Hazespain and others have put into the research. They have made their work readily available to those of us who needed to know. Most people are intelligent enough to recognize points that are speculative and points that are fact. Without the initial speculation, the facts would be hard to uncover. The speculation gives a direction to look.
Could you please give a credible link to Jose Cire Royo and the painting of glass? That would be a good thing to read. I haven't had much luck following that lead for the last couple of years. A good link would be very appreciated. I am probably missing something when I google.
-
Forgive me, but I am not sure what the objective is here?
"I am certain that the glass documentation center does not mind if others look into the creation of the glass."
True, but without visiting the same glass documentation centre, and working first hand with the original documents in Spanish and Catalan, in their archives, then research into this topic is a less than rewarding exercise.
"To try to censor people's words is not necessary." I'm not sure where this comes in.
As an author and researcher, I understand completely the points Ivo is trying to make, and he has my utmost respect for his professionalism as a researcher. Few others travel as extensively, visiting glassworks globally, or are aware of the latest developments in museums and archives.
Regards,
Marcus
-
http://www.gordiola.com/
-
I'm a bit puzzled as to what's going on on this board. I'd assumed this was a friendly site but I get the sense that some unpleasantness is creeping in. Surely people can write what they want as long as it's not obscene or offensive or have I misunderstood something?
I think it is sobering to remember that the reason Moser and Royo were linked in the first place was because a respected glass expert and writer put it in a book! When people see things like this they assume they are true but history should teach us differently.
I, for one, welcome all constructive input - including raising unanswered questions. This is how we discover the truth and I believe that amateurs are just as capable of making good points as professionals.
-
The Gordiola Glass works is a well worth visit it also has an amazing museum - not just their glass but top international pieces ,it was many years ago i payed a quick visit, the tour guide wanted to get us to the leather factory for his commision no doubt ,i think it may have been the 70s before i had heard of Royo, i am longing to go back but cant make it till late spring, if any of you can get there i promise you will love it you can even have a go at a blow .
-
I'm truly surprised that anyone voices a problem with speculation here when people do it so often elsewhere in this forum. Speculation to me is just another way of stating a question, and can be informative itself. For example, "Cirera signed his pieces 'al talon' - so on the bottom, not in the decoration. I've only ever seen "Cire" signed pieces - so for all I know this could be the (highly estimated) CIRE decoration workshop of the Catalan prison authorities, or it could be Cirera's own workshop which operated until 1960. Or even the Joan Cervera workshop - Why speculate?" This passage is full of speculation, but it's also helpful to people who weren't aware of the CIRE or Cervera workshops; it could shed a different light on the issue. Why is it offered now as a reason not to speculate, rather than near the beginning of the thread as additional information to consider?
Cirera signed his pieces "al talon"? Reference?
Some "Cxxxxx" signed pieces, at least, don't look like "Cire," the name is longer and not totally legible. Example]http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/RARE-ART-DECO-MOSER-HEAVY-ENAMEL-GLASS-BOWL-SIGNED-CIRE_W0QQitemZ110293274318QQihZ001QQcategoryZ29556QQcmdZViewItem]Example (http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/RARE-ART-DECO-MOSER-HEAVY-ENAMEL-GLASS-BOWL-SIGNED-CIRE_W0QQitemZ110293274318QQihZ001QQcategoryZ29556QQcmdZViewItem)
When I Googled "José Cire Royo" I came up with one item. I have written the seller to ask for a photo of the signature.
"To try to censor people's words is not necessary." I'm not sure where this comes in.
To me the statement, "The glass documentation centre of the Museo de Artes Decorativas in Barcelona is currently working on it - so leave it with them" is clearly a directive not to follow a line of inquiry that interests some of the members here, and could be interpreted as censorship.
This glass forum is full of informal discussion about a wide range of glass matters. Nothing said here is set in stone, and I fail to see why anybody should be discouraged from following their line of interest.
-
To me the statement, "The glass documentation centre of the Museo de Artes Decorativas in Barcelona is currently working on it - so leave it with them" is clearly a directive not to follow a line of inquiry that interests some of the members here, and could be interpreted as censorship.
Ok, so as a moderator of this board I ought to NOT to rise to the challenge....
However, I will not duck the issue, if anyone here is prepared, as I know Ivo is, and has done, like-wise myself in the sphere of Czech glass, the coal-face is where folks need to be, it gets dirty, political, but NOWHERE does it say exclusive club, and I am sure that anyone wishing to do front-line research will never be turned away, whether at the Museo de Artes Decorativas, UPM, Vand A or elsewhere....
You can only do your best, some respected glass-researchers have written books, and got pilloried later.....
I will be... but not because I associated Moser with Royo, but because I was/am too bothery cautious....If I do not know, I am unafraid of admitting I do not know, that the evidence has not yet been found...... BUT I will not be drawn into irresponsible public speculation, which may give rise to as many erroneous leads, neither will I be drawn into speculation, which may never be substantiated.....
I can have a gut feel that x/y/z item might be by s/d/f designer, but to put that into a public forum, where others may not be aware of all the currently available information, is irresponsible in the extreme.
Sorry, I do not see Ivo's comments as censorious, merely cautious, and level-headed.
(And yes, I can be passionate, and friendly, so please do not use my comments as an excuse to bash this board, just accept me as a self-opinionated, miserable bxxxxxd) ;D ;D ;D
Regards,
Marcus
-
Marcus, what fun would a board be without an occasional bit of conflict? I don't think anyone feels like board bashing. Ivo's words about Cire made me realize that maybe there may be more dimensions to this question than the three we started with -- Cirera, Royo, and later pieces. If people don't mind, maybe we can put this thread aside for now or take it to the glass cafe -- is that what it is called? That may be the best forum for it.
-
Marcus, what fun would a board be without an occasional bit of conflict?
I like your spunk!
Marcus, I think I see where you and Ivo are coming from. There's research and there's research, and it all depends on documentation and credible references. Any list like "what we know and can be confirmed" is questionable unless it has good references (meaning documentation, not the opinion of an antique dealer).
My point is that this kind of thing is done all the time on this board - perhaps not as obviously, but it's done nevertheless. People commonly say things as if they were proven truths, when they are actually speculating, and sometimes wrong. Isn't it more constructive to point out where mistakes might have been made then to tell someone not to discuss it anymore? I've heard the same thing in a past thread or two.
Most people interested in glass like to do "research." That's part of the fun of it, trying to find things out about what you have. It's not usually the same kind of research that goes into writing a book. But we're not writing books here, we're having a discussion. We're speculating! Because it's fun, and because sometimes it does lead somewhere productive, if only to better questions. Fair enough to point out that it shouldn't be interpreted as The Final Word - but why quash it???
-
What a lively discussion - great!!
I'm longing to find out what constitutes "Proof". Will someone need to unearth the employment records of Gordiola glassworks, for example, to prove Royo worked there and will there have to be a link between this and a birth certificate? Or, is the email from Gordiola proof enough?
We seem to be pretty good at identifying the decoration on Royo and Cire pieces but how do we prove that a particular piece was actually made by a particular person?
Speculation and asking questions isn't just fun, it's necessary. If we take proof as far as it can go, then no-one can say any piece can be attributed to any particular artist without examination by a museum (or similar), which kind of negates some of the assertions on this board.
There are quite a few statements on this board, indeed in this thread, that are given without the back-up proof.
Glass cafe it is then Anita until the Barcelona museum speaks.
-
Hi Marcus i will bring my Royo - Gordiola glass to Gaydon for you and anyone else to inspect
i am affraid it may be cat among the pidgeons though because if my memory serves me right
there are a couple of other signatures , oh well up to the loft i go to pack them
i hope you will have time and you can take some pictures for Ivo et al - if you want. Regards John .JP
-
Hi JP,
I look forward to seeing you there....
Regards,
Marcus
-
I will start a waffle in the cafe
-
With maple syrup for me please Frank.JP :chky:
-
On ebay just now item 330284362728 listed as Bohemean Historismus - a couple of hours to go is a typical Gordiola (Royo) piece , i believe the coat of arms could be of a Spanish region you see many different ones on these pieces , i have a large brandy goblet with almost the same decoration as this one it is signed Royo. The signature is often well hidden .JP
-
Hmmm, I think I've seen Royo similar to what you're talking about, at any rate with helmet and coat of arms. This one though also reminds me of some Bohemian historismus, for example a few of the examples on this page:
http://www.glaswolf.de/Historismus.185.0.html
The shape seems a wee bit odd for Bohemian, though, and you say it's typical Gordiola, so you may well be right - you know them much better than I do! Would Gordiola leave a ground flat rim like the one in the auction?
-
I have seen many signed ones over the years with many different bases , remember they were copying earlier styles ,i showed Marcus about 20 pieces at Gaydon he commented how varied they were and most were signed
one is signed Gordiola Mallorca .
-
It would be nice to see a bunch together and try to establish the ways they are different from the Bohemian ones. Seems like Heckert has more fine black line detail in theirs, but I haven't seen enough of the Royo ones to really compare.
The green decanter at the top of the page on the glaswolf site, identified as probably Egermann, I would have thought was a good Royo candidate based on the glass, BWDIK? Not much about this, but it's interesting to learn more about it. :)
-
Uwe Wolf is NOT a person to make uninformed attributions, and is unlikely to mistake Gordiola and Royo as Bohemian.
Regards,
Marcus
-
He says "probably Egermann" on the site; sounds like he's not sure what it is. And I said "I would have thought it was a good Royo candidate," I didn't say I believed it was Royo or otherwise question Wolf's judgment.
-
JP - It would be really nice to see photos of your Royo, et al. glass.
-
Ok,
I know exactly the issue that leads to Uwe's attribution. Catalogues are few and far between, several manufacturers operating, producing very similar ware, but informed appraisal, and experience suggests one candidate, rather than another.
This is a situation seen here in this topic: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,15349.msg96452.html#msg96452
It is not a lack of knowledge, in fact, quite the opposite, but a positive id can only be realised in certain circumstances.
Regards,
Marcus
-
Yes, Marcus, I understand all that. The thing is, I wasn't questioning his attribution. I was saying what I would have guessed, but I'm not very knowledgable about it, so who am I to say?
Marcus won't like this, but as it turns out, I am wondering about a different probable attribution. (http://www.glaswolf.de/Fussbecher-im-Renais.185+B6YmFja1BJRD0xODUmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE2ODcmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTg1JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html) Not saying it's wrong, mind you, just thinking about it. I've spent a couple hours today looking at Bohemian and Royo historismus with coats of arms. The one on Wolf's site looks sloppy compared to the Bohemian ones. It's got that bull in the middle of it and the helmet is bluish, which seems common in Royo helmets ("Royo" being kind of an umbrella term at the moment for all the Spanish enamelists that did this sort of stuff).
It doesn't matter what Wolf's is so much as it's interesting to compare the many that are out there. Who knows? Royo might not even have occurred to him; it's not like they're known for their Wappenbecher.
-
Some Bohemian and German pieces are similar to the enameled Spanish pieces, but IME the Bohemian pieces have greater attention to detail. Glass from companies, e.g Lobmeyr, Meyers-Neffe, and Moser are near perfect. The enamel, if present, is carefully applied. The glass is also carefully made. One thing I've noted in Gordiola glass is that it appears to be hurried. Often the rims are not polished, such as in their 5-spout vases. Rigaree can be a bit haphazzard. The symmetry may not be perfect. The enamel is playful, instead of careful. Companies such as Lobmeyer and Moser were very careful with their enameling. Gordiola glass reminds me a lot of 19th Century Murano glass in its general sloppiness (for lack of a better word), only the Spanish glass is much heavier.
Spain has given us many of our great artists. Much of their art is carefully thought out, but whimsical. The art probably influenced the thought on glass. I mean, how many countries would consider painting chickens all over their glass and sticking chicken stoppers on top?
-
I agree in a general sense, though I've seen signed Royo pieces that were beautifully and precisely executed. Spanish glass is more playful, less restrained. The Bohemian potash-lime glass also wasn't as suited to the rigaree and detail as Spanish soda-lime was. It seems there's sometimes a qualitative difference in the enamel itself. More streaky on Spanish glass.
Lobmeyr only made their own glass for a short period. Most of it was made by Meyr's Neffe. Moser's (and most other Bohemian companies') glass was based on a Meyr's Neffe formula. (This is all referring to pre-1930 or so.)
Chickens are popular on glass! In the US, anyway. I thought it extended elsewhere, maybe not. It's usually related to cocktails, now that I think about it. I love those chicken stoppers!
Did Hazespain get chased off?
-
I am not sure why the bolt-hedys in the armorial is anything remarkable, other than Spain does bulls. The bolt-hedys is relatively common in central and east european heraldry, and I believe was used by Mecklenburg family, as well as other noble families.
Regards,
Marcus
-
Lobmeyr only made their own glass for a short period. Most of it was made by Meyr's Neffe. Moser's (and most other Bohemian companies') glass was based on a Meyr's Neffe formula. (This is all referring to pre-1930 or so.)
May I ask, where the assumption comes from that Moser, and most other Bohemian companies' relied on Meyr's Neffe formula? Moser's standard glass formula was for unleaded glass. Is there primary source evidence for this statement, or merely secondary materials?
Della
:D
-
In Baldwin's Moser Artistic Glass it says, "From approximately 1850-1930, most Bohemian crystal produced was based on a formulation developed at Meyr's Neffe...After the opening of the Meierhofen works, Moser engaged in the develpment of improved formulations of Bohemian crystal." So it's secodary materials I got the information from. Here "crystal" is used in the American sense, meaning colorless glass. It doesn't mean that the formula used by other companies was identical to that used by Meyr's Neffe, but evidently they were the first to develop the potash-lime glass commonly used in Bohemia from 1850; before then it was apparently a lime glass without much in the way of soda or potash.
I stand corrected, the bull on the tumbler on the Wolf site isn't relevant.
-
Just yesterday I noticed in the ebay listing that JP pointed out (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330284362728&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D330284362728%2B%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1) there's a mark on the bottom, "RC 31/M.A." Has anyone seen a similar mark on Royo designs?
-
FYI, only a few years late: there is a vase signed E. Riera on Ebay at the moment, item no. 250727103617. If you have trouble with the search go to German Ebay (Ebay.de). The vase is in the UK, it seems.
-
I was reading through this post to get some information on Royo. I don't know if it is relevant at all, but on the off chance that it is, I have a Royo signed ewer with a paper sticker on the bottom which reads:
"MADE IN SPAIN
No. 177-26 (and then an acronym that I can't read)
Sitella Selya (I think)"
I'm happy to post or send a photo if that would be helpful.
-
Hi and welcome to the board :)
It would be great to see a photo if you could upload please? It needs to be below 125kb to load.
Thank you.
m
-
Here are three images. I have more if you like. The piece stands about 10 inches high.
-
Thank you for doing that :) It may help someone in the future and might help with dating some of the pieces.
That's a lovely shape ewer.
m
-
Thank you for doing that :) It may help someone in the future and might help with dating some of the pieces.
That's a lovely shape ewer.
m
You are most welcome. Hopefully it will help down the road.