Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: paradisetrader on September 03, 2005, 07:34:30 PM
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Seeing Geoff Timberlake posting I thought I'd better get this LARGE vase on quick. Hopefully Nigel and others will contribute too.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/Nazeing001-1.jpg) If it were just a little bigger it would be a champange cooler.
It has been described by the leading world expert in Ysart glass as "Monartish but not Monart".
Whole Vase (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/Nazeing001.jpg)
Detail of "hatched" pattern (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/Nazeing003.jpg)
Base with ovoid polished pontil (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/Nazeing004.jpg)
Is it Nazeing ?
and finally
What is this "fault" all about ?
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/Nazeing005.jpg) Is it considered serious / bad ?
Or just part of the process ?
Is it an indication of poor Nazeing quality control ?
All views welcome
Thank you ....Peter
Mod: Image links dead, see this post further down for new image links:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2378.msg248042.html#msg248042
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Can't assist but would like to comment, it looks like a real 'who dunnit'. The pattern is something the like of which I have never seen before.
I think the fault is a quality contol slip.
Ruth
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I think you should take another photo of the Zanfirico (that's it, isn't it?) technique there Peter. Not sure you're really doing it justice with that photograph.
:?
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http://tinypic.com/dcq0wk.jpg
Good question. And while you're at it, can you have a look at this one? Same technique with yellow and light blue stripes. Bought in an antique store in Santiago de Chile - and I 've seen a similar one there in a ball shape. Wonderful piece, the bottom is ground flat but not polished. Height 11" - was quite a haul as hand luggage.
Funny enough, it has been described by the leading world expert in Ysart glass as "Monartish but not Monart". :D :D :D
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Nazeing certainly used a similar technique but I was reluctant to claim this could be that... it could be. The fault is surely no more than a gap in the enamels. Some glassworks might class it as a second whereas others would be more pragmatic.
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I don't think this is Nazeing either. Certainly Nazeing copied the herringbone technique used by Monart, but on the example I have seen, not as well finished. However this item is more complex than herringbone and I wonder if it might be from Italy or Czech Republic maybe.
Perhaps Nigel will cast some wisdom on the subject.
Geoff
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What about Harrtil? Isn't that what this technique is called?
(Connie - dumb American who is probably confused by all this furrin glass) :wink:
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This is certainly a puzzler Peter. I saw the word enamel used and I was under the assumption that enamels were applied to a glass object, this looks like the hatching is part of the actual piece. Being across the pond so to speak I don't have much experience with the glass that is being mentioned, Monart etc. But like Connie will throw out a name and see what happens. How about Gray Stan? Is that a possibility. Terry
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Gray Stan is not a possibility. Decoration is dome by marvering the colour enamels to the parison, blowing into a dip mould for the stripes, then twisting and using the dip mould again to get the contra gathering or herringnone effect.
Enamels are powdered coloured glass.
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Thanks everyone for your input
Frank I had noticed this colorway in vases which were ID'd as Nazeing, but that's all I was going on as I have so little knowledge of that company's products.
The fault is not a gap Frank, there is glass there which is almost black but in a certain light looks a definate blue.
I have looked at the vase again and have realised that the decoration is white and the glass is green so the decor looks minty green. At the base there is a thin layer of green glass without decor only noticable by looking sideways on through the base with a white background.
So that means the white enamelling is INSIDE the glass as Terry suggested. Oddly (?) the ripples caused by the enamelled strings or ribbons can be felt from the inside.
Ok No, the pattern is not "hatched" but to call it Zanfirico Max could confuse the issue as it would automatically suggest Italian, which according to Geoff it may be but I don't feel it is. Herringbone as suggested by Geoff is probably the best description.
Max, apart from some flash bounce back the photos give a pretty good representation of what the pattern is actually like. The thickness of the enameling does vary if thats what you were refering to. The lines are also not straight. So I'm surprised when Geoff says "Certainly Nazeing copied the herringbone technique used by Monart, but on the example I have seen, not as well finished." !!!!!
To me it's far from "perfect" in a number of respects and indeed from the Venetians or the Bohemians I would have expected greater accuracy ! BUT I am very green in the particular style and era, which to me could be anywhere between 1880 and 1939...but at a push I would say 1900-1920. Any opinions on this ?
Connie, The Harrtil technique uses glass fibres. I don't think glass fibre was available at this time ...was it ?but in any case I belive its enamelling as Frank says.
Decoration is dome by marvering the colour enamels to the parison, blowing into a dip mould for the stripes, then twisting and using the dip mould again to get the contra gathering or herringnone effect. Frank
Frank thanks for this concise explanation which seems to be pretty near the mark as far as I can understand it. I've never heard the word "parison" before !!! For all us dummies there are some definitions Here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3A%20parison&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=iw)
So NOT Monart, Nazeing or Gray Stan. Where does that leave us ? Italy and Bohemia ? Would they have done a polished pontil ? Neither are noted for that marker in the later half of C20.
(Emoticon for scratching head please)
Peter
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Peter,
:oops: Sorry I seem to have confused you slightly. When I said that Nazeing's herring bone pattern was not as well finished, I was referring to Monart examples, not the vase you have - although, as you point out there are several flaws in the decoration on your vase - and dare I say it, :roll: more so than if Nazeing had made it.
regards Geoff
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Thank you Geoff for clearing that up - it does make more sense and yes you dare say it. My interest in this vase has become much more intellectual curiosity than anything else so I'm quite realistic about it and happy with whatever should be finally decided.
However the design and shape seem very English to me. I have some interest in Bohemian production of the early C20 and have not seen anything the like. Any thoughts on age ?
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I tend to use words like bubble instead of parison... usually... but when time is short :?
I had only looked quickly at the fault, so looked again. It is just a small piece of a different colour that got mixed on the marver.
Interestingly it would not be an easy vase to make, count the stripes and you will realise how many teeth the dip-mould had in it - that was not cheap. Yet, the irregularity of the stripes could mean that it was dipped more than once in a mould with less teeth. An approach that is very tricky as I suspect you would need to marver each time and not twist until the colour was complete. Quite tricky, perhaps AA can confirm if it could be done that way.
Not so sure I agree it is an English shape but that is just my opinion.
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Hello everyone,
I have just been going back over recent entries since I have been away and needed to catch up.
So, here's my twopenny'th.
I have never managed to find out who these pieces are made by. They turn up from time-to-time in this green colour, pale blue or fawn and in a number of shapes. All have a coloured, or tinted, casing with the white enamel used to give the pattern. The shapes (taken as a group) are not synonimous with any particular factory - particularly not British.
There are a number of other look-alikes that have a similar feel, which "copy" Monart in particular and/or have similarity to Nazeing, but their finishing, style and colour do not conform to either factory. Usually, in the past, they are all referred to as Czech - without any concrete proof at all.
As an aside, Geoff, is there a link that proves Nazeing copied Monart's herringbone technique? Or is it just a question of chronology? After all they could just as easily have been influenced by Powell's herringbone, or lattice, technique.
Nigel
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Or anybody elses herringbone. Technique is older than Monart.
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Hi,
A very good point Frank :) .
Nigel
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Thank you Nigel.
That makes it a lot more understandable.
As to the shape it is not entirely dissimilar to Monart shape RG only about double the size.
Indeed it's the size of this thing which is still bugging me. I joked in my initial posting that it's almost big enough for a wine cooler. It is 10" (exactly Bernard !!!) x 7.5 inches (exactly) dia at the rim.
In fact I have just tested it with a wine bottle and yes it is big enough !!! So could it be in fact a wine cooler ?
Or did they just have huge bunches of flowers in them days of yore ?
Which bring me to my final irk ...a date....or rather deacde ...guesstimates welcome if only for fun ...ANYONE !!!
Max kindly sent me a link to this http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/classic/G174.html one which is pretty much the same except much smaller.... :roll: 6" in height instead of 10".
So part of a "range" it would seem.
Seller suggests Webb or Stevens and Williams and "Art Deco" :roll:
edit : now changed to "probably Nazeing"
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I still find myself leaning to Nazeing... reason being that the quality of workmanship suggests ability tempered by the need to keep costs low. Nazeing was in a market-place where the up-market outlets were selling Monart and Nazeing was being retailed in the gift trade. Most of the Nazeing of this period 30-50's that I have handled exhibits this somewhat opinionated quality. The best pieces tooj it a stage further with better attention to detail and quality. Vasart suffered in the same way.
The 50's were a very buoyant time with rapid economic growth the rise of European consumerism and the evils of the market economy. In this atmosphere there were a lot of people getting into the industry and suffering various fates. Vasart nearly collapsed after the deat of Salvador and Nazeing managed to stay flexible enough to adapt to the market and are one of the few surviving through that period... AND they still exist!
That confusion has been added to the Nazeing collecting market since Geoff's book can be frustrating to collectors but it is not a bad thing. What is emerging is an awareness that there were other glassworks in that period that may have produced similar items. Snippets of this research are circulating but we have to wait for the research to be completed and published... in the mean time keep collecting what you think is 'probably' Nazeing and one day you may discover that you have an almost unique collection of the "West Tottenham Art Glass Company" glassware alongside the Nazeing :D
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Hi,
Maybe I'm being a bit slow tonight, but I really don't understand what you're saying here Frank:
"Most of the Nazeing of this period 30-50's that I have handled exhibits this somewhat opinionated quality."
Nigel
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Hi, I've just registered. There is a mistake on our site, http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/classic/G174.html. We believe this to be Nazeing, but just have to get around to changing it!
It has a polished pontil. We have Nazeing that was bought from the Nazeing locale which also has a polished pontil. It has the same feel as this piece. It's not certain of course, and needs a better picture. We have seen several different shapes, also attributed to Nazeing.
Hope this helps or adds to the confusion!
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At least it shows it was not a one off.
Your Webb-Corbett http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/classic/G136.html is correct, also found on purple, occasionally marked.
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Pete and Ivo's pics have disappeared. Could they be added back please guys? :)
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Mods : Unable to edit original posting to fix pic links.
Here are the pics
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/ParaGMB/NazeingQ/Nazeing001.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/ParaGMB/NazeingQ/Nazeing002.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/ParaGMB/NazeingQ/Nazeing003.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/ParaGMB/NazeingQ/Nazeing003a1.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/ParaGMB/NazeingQ/Nazeing004.jpg
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ananotherthing...
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and another one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-19th-C-Cranberry-Opalescent-Art-Glass-Dome-Shaped-Covered-Cheese-Dish-/230724909783?
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here's one in yellow
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/24593-bbig-nazing-1930s-vase?in=user