Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: junkmailforblankets on November 09, 2008, 03:07:18 AM
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Hi there. I'm new and trying to find help identifying the maker and any other information about a glass decanter that I found. It's glass, I think, rectangular with angled corners, and etched floral patterns on all sides. There is a silver base on it as well as a silver collar(?) around the neck. The stopper is cork with what appears to be a cherub on top. I've found some identifying marks. On top of the stopper, there's a diamond with the letters T.H. inside. Next to that are four symbols, each inside a circular shape. The symbols are, in order, a lion in profile with its head to the left, a lower-case "i," an upper-case "F," and what appears to be a devil's head with daggers criss-crossed through the head. Those same marks are on the bottom etched into the silver. The only other markings I see is a line of four more symbols etched into the silver. They are, in order, a collection of three small shapes, almost hay bale looking, a fleur de lys, something that resembles the head of a flower, and, finally, something that looks like a pine cone. The silver around the glass is decorated with woodlands/pastoral scenes.
Thanks so much for any help anyone can offer.
Jeremy
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Theodor Hartmann
See TH section on this site below...
http://www.silvercollection.it/Englishsilvermarks3.html
I think this item dates to 1904.
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Thank you so much for the quick help!
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That is of course the silver fittings, not the glass manufacturer. The glass may not even be English
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Oh, I didn't consider that. Is there any way of telling, any identifying mark that even the untrained eye can discern, that would help in figuring out the provenance of the glass?
Thanks so much,
Jeremy
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I was browsing silver marks in the early hours of this morning - using http://www.925-1000.com - and could not find an entry for "TH" that would tie in with the rest of the marks. Since the "TH" was in a diamond, or lozenge, I suspected it could be French, but that led nowhere either.
Tiger's link to the "sivercollection" site does seem to make sense. No doubt many silver marks sites and books do not include entries for importers. The shape of the shield for the Standard mark is correct for London as is the shape and font for the "i" mark, which is 1904.
The "F" in an oval cartouche indicates "Foreign" and this also ties in with work coming into London through an importer. I have no idea what the "skull and crossbones" mark means. Whether the imported work would have been just the silver or the full item with the bottle in place is something else I have no idea about. Maybe the whole thing was made in Germany, and maybe not!
But the odd thing is the other set of marks. The "town" mark appears to be for Newcastle in Britain, which could not tie in properly with the other marks being London 1904 because the last marks for Newcastle were for 1883/4! All the other marks in that set make no sense, as far as I can see, for British work and I could not find equivalents in the lists of "other countries" in the "925-1000" site. (But as I said, it was in the early hours when I looked!)
Do the second set of marks appear on a section of metal that also has the first set? If so, perhaps the "Newcastle" mark is not what I thought and it may need a throurgh search of German (or other) marlks to identify properly.
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Interesting piece! Nice silver. Looks like the glass is engraved. If you happen to have a photo of the engraving handy, could you please post it?
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Thanks for the investigative work, Kevin. On the rim of the stopper, there are the TH mark and the row of four symbols that match the TH mark and four symbols on the bottom of the bottle. The row of four symbols that includes the fleur de lys is on the bottom on the side opposite the TH and four symbols.
And I've attached a photo of the etchings. The etchings on the broad side match front and back, and the etchings on the sides match each other. Also, and I don't know whether this is standard, the silver banding covers up some of the etching, which makes me wonder whether the two were meant for each other.
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They are related...
http://www.silvercollection.it/849AAAINGLESE.jpg
Perhaps it is the mark of K. Kurz of Kesselstadt, Germany?
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That's it!
"Karl Kurz Silberwarenfabrik: Kesselstadt, end of 19th century; Its English Agent/Importer was Theodor Hartmann registered in London and Sheffield"
http://www.silvercollection.it/germansilverhallmarks4.html
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Are these fairly common? I got it at a thrift store for a few dollars and was wondering whether it would be worth my time to try to sell it. It's really pretty, and I like having it in the house, but if it's worth any money, that would be good to know.
Thanks so much everyone for your help; this is so much fun doing detective work; I'm afraid I'm enjoying it too much, and the last thing I need is another hobby.
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European silver marks are quite fascinating. You can tell so much about where and when and by whom silver was made, and it's all in "code," like deciphering a note from a spy or something. If only glass were similarly coded!
Are the top and the bottom silver parts in the same pattern? I wondered whether they were perhaps applied at different times, and that's why there's a discrepancy in the town that Kev found. One set of marks is very nice and neat compared to the other, too. Not my area, it's just an idea.
The engraving is quite lovely. Thank you Jeremy for posting photos of it! Normally engraving isn't usually covered by silver if the engraver was aware it would go there, which supports the idea that the glass was made at a different time than the silver was applied.
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Kristi, the silver parts seem to share a pattern. As for the set of marks, the photos I posted are all from the underside of the bottom piece of silver. The top piece of silver shares the same set of importer's marks, but not the maker's marks.
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Oh, I see. I must have missed that, obviously. Thanks for clarifying.
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As the silver is German, it seems likely that the decanter may be German or Bohemian, given the engraving. It also looks as though the decanter is quite badly watermarked inside, or is that just an artefact of the photo. If it is, that will lower its value.
Google brings this site http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php (http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php) up as having some silver by the same firm but I can't find it when I look through the site
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http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=3692