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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on November 13, 2008, 12:58:14 PM

Title: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 13, 2008, 12:58:14 PM

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0316.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0316.jpg)		(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0317narrow.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0317narrow.jpg)		(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0320.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0320.jpg)

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0317narrow.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0317narrow.jpg) Click any image to enlarge. Please respect my copyright of these images and texts.

John Walsh Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent This bath salts has the standard Walsh Vesta Venetian rib count of 18/18, as you would expect for the main jar, and the same rib count for the lid, not always the case.   The main jar was shaped using a two-part wooden shape mould, as I have another example of this bath salts in blue / opalescent, and the main jar element is identical in shape and size.   It is possible that all Walsh Vesta Venetian was shaped in this way as it explains how the projecting ribs are always transferred to the inside.   See here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,23747.0.html) for images of a similar process. Height — Overall 15", 38cm;  jar 10¾", 27.2cm;  lid 5", 12.7cm. Weight — Overall 1lb 13¼oz, 828g;  jar 1lb 4½oz, 582g;  lid 8¾oz, 246g. See here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21889.0.html) for a discussion on a similarly coloured example of Vesta Venetian.   In particular:- Quote from: Frank on July 03, 2008, 09:01:05 AM ... later a much brighter orange was used and this was apparently temperature sensitive as was the Kügler red they [Monart] used. The orange shading from yellow through oranges and red is rarely found consistent through a single piece, often shading to orangey-red. If this Walsh clear orange was temperature sensitive, you would expect the colour inside the much thicker lid to be more concentrated and deeper than the colour inside the jar, although Frank made the cautionary comment by email after a preview of these images that it could be a replacement lid, always a possibility, but, I think, unlikely.   See:-       (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0318.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0318.jpg)     (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0319.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0319.jpg) I believe the case for this Walsh orange being a temperature sensitive glass reasonably well-established by this piece, although more examples would be useful. Thanks to Frank for his input.

... and finally ...

I bought this bath salts on eBay from seller annicksantiques (http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/annicksantiques), based in Tasmania!   It was posted surface mail on 23rd May 2008 and arrived on 9th October, 4½ months later by surface mail to keep the cost (and carbon footprint) to a minimum.   It was beautifully packed in excess of postal recommendations.   As it's too late for feedback, I felt that I could compensate for this in a small way by praising and recommending the seller here.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: krsilber on November 14, 2008, 08:58:36 AM

That is absolutely gorgeous, Bernard.  Beautiful photos and post, too.  Congratulations on its arrival!  Four and a half months is a long time to wait.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 15, 2008, 10:00:04 AM

Kristi — Thanks.

Please would anyone on a screen resolution of 1024 x 768 or smaller please accept my apologies for the scrolling bar that appears.   It won't happen again.  :-[

A supplementary query:-

Has anyone any ideas of a name for or possible origin of this eclectic shape?

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Ivo on November 15, 2008, 12:50:00 PM

Quote from: Bernard C on November 15, 2008, 10:00:04 AM

Has anyone any ideas of a name for or possible origin of this eclectic shape?

it is derived from an apothecary jar.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Anne on November 15, 2008, 05:06:16 PM

How interesting, I've not seen apothecary jars before  - what sort of era are those Ivo?

I've been watching this with interest as my Mother has what appears to be, from reading this topic, the bottom part of the same sort of jar as Bernard's one - but hers is turquoise blue ribbed, no opalescence, and I've always wondered who might have made that - it's not as pretty as Bernard's Walsh one for sure.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Ivo on November 15, 2008, 06:46:11 PM

I'm not really sure. I've consulted with US dealers who recognise the shape and colour as pharmacy jars, but I've never seen these in Europe (not even in the fabulous Pharmacy museum in Heidelberg castle). Mine do not look old - but that says nothing. It does make sense though: small footprint large capacity, dark grey glass to shelter from the light. So I'd say late 19th century.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: chloe on November 15, 2008, 06:49:55 PM

Sorry to sound dense, but the original piece - it was for putting bath salts in?  Would they have come with bath salts in, or would they be to 'house' presents?  And how would the bath salts have been used from there?  Would there have been a matching scoop or something?  Just it seems a bit delicate to just tip over a bath!

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Pedestal Bath Salts in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 15, 2008, 09:17:40 PM

Ivo — Thanks.   You've opened up a whole new field to me, and, I suspect, to others.   Previously I had thought of apothecary jars only as those giant onion-shaped jars filled with coloured water in old pharmacy windows.   Rambling around the internet, I discovered that they first appeared in Baghdad in the late Middle Ages, hence the Oriental appearance.   Note the rudimentary string ring, originally for tying on the lid prior to sealing with wax.

Chloe — Bath salts was just a guess, hopefully reasonably well-informed, taking account of the mid–late 1920s date.   The alternative is that they were purely ornamental, as Vesta Venetian looks wonderful on a sunny windowsill with its fiery opalescence.   My OH tells me that most wouldn't have bothered using a measure, just tipping in approximately the right quantity to soften the water.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Anne on November 16, 2008, 02:02:20 AM

Thanks Ivo most interesting. As Bernard says, a whole new area for me too beyond those huge onion-domed ones we are used to seeing. The Pharmacy Museum has a website: http://www.deutsches-apotheken-museum.de/englisch/index-en.php with an online tour - sounds well-worth checking out, thank you. :)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: JC on November 16, 2008, 04:11:47 AM

 Just to add another use from Australia,
I have seen these type of jars used to store  cotton balls.Popular back in the 70's. I can not remember if they were sold with the cotton balls in them or whether you bought both sperately. 
Julie

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: krsilber on November 16, 2008, 05:42:53 AM

Quote

Rambling around the internet, I discovered that they first appeared in Baghdad in the late Middle Ages, hence the Oriental appearance.

This is intriguing.  What were they made of?  And what shape?  Do you have a link that shows photos of them?  If they're Persian they might have some nice decoration.  Or not.

Looking at what are called apothecary jars on ebay, it's clear that people are willing to call practically anything with a lid and foot an apothecary jar.  One guy got so frustrated about it he wrote an ebay guide, "THE FACTS (AND FICTION) ABOUT APOTHECARY JARS" (http://reviews.ebay.ca/THE-FACTS-AND-FICTION-ABOUT-APOTHECARY-JARS_W0QQugidZ10000000005123075) but who knows how factual it really is.  Still, he makes some good points.

What is known in the US as apothecary jars seems to refer more a shape than actual use in an apothecary.  Ivo - did the dealers mean they were actually used in apothecaries?  That would surprise me, since you can't see the contents, they would be quite top-heavy when full, and they have feet.  I can understand jars having feet if used to display things, but then why would they be grey?  Usually photo-sensitive stuff was in dark amber jars, since they could use iron to color them.

Bernard's jar kind of reminds me of a variant on a covered pokal.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 16, 2008, 07:01:44 AM

Julie — I spent a happy half hour rooting around our kitchen and bathroom looking for possible candidates, with little success.   It doesn't really work with liquids, and non-flowing solids like spaghetti and vanilla pods could get jammed in the bulbous bottom (interesting humorous sales pitch there!).   Wider shapes with larger openings in clear glass are described on US websites as Apothecary / Candy Jars, but this shape is too narrow for confectionery other than the likes of sugared almonds, black bullets, and aniseed balls, and you really need to see what's inside.   I don't think cotton wool was sold in balls until comparatively recently, possibly the 1970s as you say, at least not here in Britain, as I remember it came in a large roll and you tore off a piece, but wouldn't cotton balls get jammed in the bottom?

Which is how I arrived at Bath Salts.   QED.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 16, 2008, 08:27:02 AM

Kristi — This topic is about the covered jar above, not problems of popular nomenclature on eBay.com.   Please keep roughly to the topic.   Large diversions from the topic become topic-wrecking tactics, whether intended or not, as I and others just abandon it as a waste of effort, and so the effective pursuit of useful information is lost, and all the effort that I and others have put in is wasted.  And if Ivo Haanstra says that the shape was derived from an apothecary jar, then that's good enough for me.

Bernard Cavalot

Mod: Post cleaned up in accordance with Board Guidelines.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Bernard C on November 16, 2008, 11:40:15 AM

Thanks, moderators, for revising the title of this topic.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: krsilber on November 16, 2008, 08:29:05 PM

Evidently I didn't make myself clear, because I was indeed on topic, discussing your piece.  My point is that even if its general shape is based on an apothecary jar, I think it unlikely this was actually used as such.  Ivo, too, said "derived from" the shape.  My other point its that many items called apothecary jars are not actually like the ones that were used as such, and that it's possible yours is based on the shape of such a "pseudo-apothecary jar."

Mod: Post edited to remove text no longer relevant following editing of Bernard's post.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: aa on November 16, 2008, 10:51:16 PM

Were fairy lamps used by fairies? I wouldn't like to disillusion anyone, but I suspect not. However, I am by no means an expert on fairy lamps, so I could be wrong. ;)  There is, however, a certain kind of candle-holder or night light known as a fairy lamp. These have certain characteristics, which essentially boil down to there being two parts - a lamp base and shade, but this does not mean that every two part lamp is a fairy lamp.


With apologies to Jim Sapp for making light of fairy lamps. :) http://www.fairy-lamp.com/

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: krsilber on November 17, 2008, 12:26:45 AM

Talk about off-topic! ;) ;D  Kidding - I think you're making a relevant point here, but not quite sure what.  Is it that an item doesn't have to be intended for apothecaries in order to be called an apothecary jar?  Or that not every jar of a particular shape is actually an apothecary jar?

What would Walsh have called it?

hee hee, "making light of fairy lamps"   ;D

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 17, 2008, 07:19:32 AM

We probably don't know what Walsh called it, there is very little documentary evidence about their stuff, most of it has disappeared.

Title: Re: Walsh Vesta Venetian Apothecary Jar in Orange / Opalescent
Post by: JC on November 18, 2008, 05:39:27 AM

Bernard we had Cotton Balls down here in the 70's. And it was popular to buy the packets of coloured cotton Balls. The packet had  a mix of pink, blue and white.
I had the same shape Jar as yours, but in clear glass.It was a gift to me when I had my first child. So I am unsure if it was purchased like that filled with the cotton balls.
I did have a   cased glass one, orange  with white glass,    here but I can't find it.Though if I am remembering correctly that one wasn't footed, same style lid though.
  BTW love that one you have
Julie