Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on January 20, 2009, 07:43:33 PM
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I bought this pair of cut glass vases today, I thought that they may have been ABP but now believe that they are more likely to be English or European, the base and rim does not quite look right but I would be very interested in any opinion as to the ID
They stand 8" tall and weigh 500 gms each so are quite heavy and well cut
I asked the seller if they knew anything about the vases, they told me that they had been told that they well late Victorian and may have been made in the Stourbridge area
many thanks Roy
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At first sight I'm thinking 1930s but the cutting looks quite sharp suggesting maybe an earlier date. The cutting is high quality and the vases have scalloped feet. Please upload a clear picture of the underside of the foot. Thanks
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A couple of pics of the base, the cutting is quite sharp, thanks for looking
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I have looked through 100's of ABP in the 2 books I have and on the internet and found a few items with similar rims and base but still very insure as to the location of these vases were made
Roy
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Hi Roy. Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.
I'm a bit stuck with these.
The deep sharp quality cutting along with the thick wide foot is typical Georgian glass c1800, but I would expect to see wear on the underside of the feet. Deep cutting was also popular in the 1930s but the cutting is usually not as sharp due to the cut piece dipped in acid to give the final polish, before this the piece was hand polished which was the most time consuming job. I would have to say at a guess that these vases are c1880 and most definitely made in England or Ireland. This type of glass is high quality but generally underrated. Hope this has helped. Cheers
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Roy — We have a family piece which is very similar indeed. Although we don't know its history, we do know something about its date, as it was either a wedding present to Janet's father upon his first marriage in 1924, or it is earlier and from his side of the family. So ours is 1923–24 or earlier. Family tradition is that it's earlier, but family tradition can be very optimistic!
I can't see how any of the half dozen or so British centres of cut crystal manufacture and a similar number on the Continent can be eliminated in your quest for attribution. A quarter of a century ago it would have been Stourbridge or Bohemian, seriously inaccurate but much tidier! Fortunately our knowledge has increased dramatically, in no small part due to Broadfield House Glass Museum.
Bernard C. 8)
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These are likely later Brilliant period, 1900-1915. Could be American; English also possible; I think Continental is less likely. There an image of a Stourbridge piece in this pattern (Harvard) in Hadjamach, but it looks to me like the crosshatching is left/right and up/down, rather than diagonal. Harvard was first used by Hawkes around 1900-1910.
The deep sharp quality cutting along with the thick wide foot is typical Georgian glass c1800
Definitely not Georgian! Neither the pattern or this type of rich cutting was done that early. Georgian patterns are simple by comparison.
Deep cutting was also popular in the 1930s but the cutting is usually not as sharp due to the cut piece dipped in acid to give the final polish, before this the piece was hand polished which was the most time consuming job.
Acid polishing was widely used in the US beginning around 1900, and acid polished pieces can be very sharp. The good quality ones were hand-buffed after acid polishing, as acid often left an unwanted pitted or watery texture on the surface. Some English or Irish pieces with cuts that aren't very sharp may have been fire polished. Waterford fire polishes their cut glass, though I don't know when the practice started.
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Thanks for your replies, I would agree with the date 1900-1920, I would also agree with Bernard that if English would be very difficult to attribute to any one manufacture, unless they were ABP when it may be possible to ID the pattern and maker,
I still believe that they are more likely to be English but it would be good to at least attribute them to a Country if not a maker
Thanks Roy
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Ah the American brilliant period 1880 to 1915, basically British Georgian Regency copy's with different pattern cutting. LOL.
Cut glass has been produced in England and Ireland since 1780. Cut glass had progressed at a fast rate with the best machinery and the most highly skilled glass cutters in the world based in the UK. By the 1820s rich cut crisp British crystal glass from this period is the best in the world with the rest of the world to follow. There is plenty of simple cut glass during the late Georgian period but there is also lots of Georgian glass cut deep and with intrigate patterns. These vases are not typical Victorian or Edwardian style due to the quality of the cutting and have a strong Georgian influence. Don't you just love the British xx
By the way, fire polishing has been used on some glass for over 200 years.
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:thup:
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This is no place for a debate over the relative merits of Anglo-Irish vs. American cut glass, but it seems to me Glass has a rather Anglocentric perspective of the industry and consequently her ideas about these vases. So, a few comments/questions...
Ah the American brilliant period 1880 to 1915, basically British Georgian Regency copy's with different pattern cutting. LOL.
Hardly! The glass was usually thicker and therefore could be more deeply cut, most of the dominant motifs were different and more ornate, and the patterns often combined many motifs on one piece, totally covering it. And although American cutting houses adapted some English and Irish Regency motifs during the period, according to Daniel's Cut and Engraved Glass American output then far surpassed English and Irish production and little was imported, so you could just as easily say that ABP copied Early American Period designs (though that isn't really true, either).
Cut glass has been produced in England and Ireland and America since 1780. Cut glass had progressed at a fast rate with the best machinery and the most highly skilled glass cutters in the world based in the UK ...and some of those cutters emigrated to the US. I don't know about the machinery - how did it differ from that used in the US? By the 1820s rich cut crisp British crystal glass from this period is the best in the world with the rest of the world to follow. Some say the American lead glass of this time has greater clarity. There is plenty of simple cut glass during the late Georgian period but there is also lots of Georgian glass cut deep and with intrigate patterns. These vases are not typical Victorian or Edwardian style They certainly are! due to the quality of the cutting I don't understand your point about the quality at all. There was a lot of high-quality cutting done in the late 19th/early 20th C. and have a strong Georgian American influence. Don't you just love the British xx
By the way, fire polishing has been used on some glass for over 200 years. Has it been used to polish cuttings for that long? I thought most pre-1900 cut glass was hand-polished, but I would be very interested to know if that's not the case.
Once again, this is an American motif/pattern, Harvard, first used by Hawkes around 1900. There are a few American patterns that were adopted by English companies; Russian was a particularly popular one.
Georgian patterns are simple by comparison.
This is my quote. I should have said "Georgian motifs" are simple by comparison, since there are Georgian patterns that combined more motifs than these vases. In the case of Harvard, it's considered both a pattern that can be used alone, and a motif that can be used with other motifs to make up a pattern.
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Thanks Kristi
Can I just clarify Kristi what you are saying that the vases are in ABP pattern Harvard but that does not rule out the possibility of them being Harvard pattern but cut by a UK maker as a few patterns were copied and cut in the UK,
The vases are sharp with the stems particularly sharp with very deep cutting, also each pattern had to be adapted to fit the shape of the blank they were cut on
Roy
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Hi Kristi, I'm a bit slippery when wet, notice how I said "some glass". I have a couple of Georgian glasses c1800 with fire polished pontil marks. Just thought I would mention it. Thanks for your info and sharing your knowledge, I'm sorry if I've been a bit annoying :-X
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Thanks Kristi
Can I just clarify Kristi what you are saying that the vases are in ABP pattern Harvard but that does not rule out the possibility of them being Harvard pattern but cut by a UK maker as a few patterns were copied and cut in the UK,
The vases are sharp with the stems particularly sharp with very deep cutting, also each pattern had to be adapted to fit the shape of the blank they were cut on
Roy
Roy - Um...are you asking if that's what I'm saying? If so, yes. There's a bowl with a pedestal in Harvard shown in Daniel that has prismatic cutting on the stem, but a different rim (sawtooth as well as scalloped), so it may not signify anything. So confusing that multiple companies cut the same pattern. I'll email Karen and get her to take a look; she has a lot more references than I and it's possible she has one showing the vases if they are American. Do they glow in UV?
Glass - You're not annoying me at all! I was just wondering about the fire polishing thing - knew it had been done as a finishing technique on glass just made, but wasn't sure when people started to use it on already-cut glass as a method to eliminate the greyness left by wheel marks. Still not sure when or who did it besides Waterford. Something I've been curious about for a while now.
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Kristi I have just checked under a UV a very faint green but not really a glow
Roy
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Hi Roy - Where is the turquoise color coming from?
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Karen I can only think the turquoise colour is a reflection from the outer rim of the trampoline from where I took the pictures as that is green, just added one of base taken with flash
Roy