Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: tonyatl on February 25, 2009, 11:47:18 PM
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i have a glass vase painted with a mottled green ground but painted with a flowering branch and two birds against a silvery moon and an oriental or tropical looking yellow circular vignette. it is signed baccarat and stands 8".
does the baccarat signature have any significance - or is it just some schmo whose last name happens to be baccarat? i can't see it being related to the baccarat glass company as this does not seem characteristic of their work. i am gusessing this may be 1940s but could it be earlier? does this belong to any classification of glass or is it just hand painted glass?
ps. well it seems as though one just needs to surf the internet more diligently.....i think this link shows a piece of comparable glass from.......baccarat. http://www.glasshound.com/Baccarat_glass_vase_353.html .....based upon the strong similarity between the two vases, i would accept the earlier dating of 1870-1885.....
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No schmo can produce decoration in this stunning quality so the probability of having run into a Baccarat piece is quite high.
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it is indeed the baccarat we all know....i was thrown because i had not seen this style of glass work from baccarat and therefore did not know if the baccarat signature represented the company or an otherwise anonymous artist (aka schmo)....the glasshound site was most helpful in resolving the uncertainty.
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Hi
I've seen many a Baccarat signature before but never one like this (nor is it in Glasmarken Lexikon) -it was almost unknown for these pieces to be signed Baccarat -signed by the actual designer - yes - but not Baccarat.
Having said that the enamelling is pure Baccarat Chinoiserie
Makes me think of two possibilites
1. Pure Baccarat but signature added later by enthusiatic amateur
2. Someone copying Baccarat -but probably close to date Baccarat was making them (1875-1890)
Either way still beautiful
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the glasshound example does not have a signature but the form of the two vases is identical.....if he has identified it as baccarat without the signature then there is probably good reason to believe that my vase is baccarat....and using occam's razor, there is no reason to suppose that an enthusiastic fan added the signature ex post facto......it is entirely possible that baccarat used it later in production to protect intellectual property or to make marketing points.
i would like to find more of these vases to see how they are treated....the uncomfortable implication of my conclusion is that we have a heretofore unidentified baccarat "backstamp" but under the circumstances there is no reason to back away from the conclusion absent compelling reasoning otherwise.....
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Hi Guys,
I thought I'd chime in here and put my two cents in....these "Baccarat" vases have also been attributed to the Smith Bros. in the U.S. The almost "identical" decoration makes me wonder if any glass decorator(s) of Baccarat moved to the U.S. or vice versa in the 1880's.
Check out this example which has been attributed to the Smith Bros. http://www.glasshound.com/smith_bros_vase_210.html (http://www.glasshound.com/smith_bros_vase_210.html)
Blair
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ok now we are getting evidence and this is interesting.....i read your sales copy and your posting here and need clarification....are you saying that this latest link is indeed a smith brothers creation? or do you feel it is baccarat? it does not seem mt washington....do you have any examples which are certainly smith brothers? upon what did you base your smith brothers attribution?
the migration theory is certainly plausible but i am not prepared to make to much of it yet....pending additional evidence...
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I'm not a hundred percent sure it's Smith Bros bu there's references to these vases in Pairpoint/Mt. Washington books...it's also possible that at one time (maybe early on) none of these vases were signed and then Baccarat decided to sign them (for export possibly?). I have a book on Baccarat and there is no reference to these vases whatsoever....
Blair
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Hi
Glassmarken Lexicon is THE most complete record of existing glass signatures.
If a signature isn't in there, I get real worried.
Here Occams razor says to me its unlikely to have a undiscovered Baccarat signature so more likely it's been added. Simple to do and may have made a past owner happier or richer!
Add the new info about Smith Bros then it does get interesting. Never seen their stuff but re-looking at the enamelled image there are a lot more colours here than Baccarat used at this time. Their enammelling palate really only expanded c1920 with M Chevallier and even then he used less colours.
My guess and its only a guess; someone fascinated by and trying to copy the Baccarat chinoiserie style and then someone added the signature
cheers
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ok...as long as the mt washington references show them (and the reference is reliable), then i think it is fair to say that mt washington produced these vases...is there a connection between smith brothers and mt washington?
so if we have documented examples by mt washington then it seems that mt washington used the baccarat signature as a promotional device.
are you able to scan the version shown in the mt washington reference?
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regarding Glassmarken Lexicon, as reliable as it may be it is not infallible and absence of data is nothing but an argument from silence which is rarely a strong position from which to argue. on the other hand it surely must be reckoned with to some degree.
however, it all seems moot as new evidence is pointing to different and more probable provenence. i would certainly go with an american attribution. as nice as the vase is it does not have the elegance and quality i think of with baccarat....
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Mike The Gassmarken Lexicon has Royo down as Moser i am told .
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For confirmation:
Hartmann's Glasmarken Lexikon does not list "ROYO" or "CIRE" in the index, but both of those names are included in the many image references for marks under detailed info for "Moser, Ludwig & Sönne". The image references point to indvidual entries in the A-Z section which then cross reference the bilbiography section where the info is seen to be taken from Baldwin's Moser - Artistry in Glass 1857-1938.
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There are many marks omitted from Hartmann, many have probably been added to the web version - along with corrections to the book.
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Lets not completly destroy one of our best references -guys
I agree no reference is perfect -Hartmann is ultimately a compilation of other supposedly 'relaible' references and as an otherwise good reference book attributed Royo and Cire to Moser - Hartmann had noted that fact -for a long time I was taken in too and I'm meant to be a Moser expert.
When a completely new Baccarat signature turns up, different, in style, case and form from any seen before (in Hartmann or anywhere else). I'll still leaning toward a 'creative addition'
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I only mentioned the Lexicon - Royo because i had a very irate German lady email me and take me to task , she said Royo WAS Moser because the Lexicon said so , and she was very threatening and i am so scared of Ladies. ;) ;)
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regardless of whether or not the signature was a creative addition, the more interesting question in my mind is whether or not one could source this vase to mt washington or smith brothers. i think we can rule out baccarat certainly for the time being. if this reference from glasshound proves credible then i think we have fertile grounds for productive analysis.
i am also not sure if this vase is up to mt washington's quality.
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here is another similarly decorated vase whose owner gives a smith brothers attribution but claims the sandwich glass co.....
http://www.trocadero.com/eeber/items/576876/item576876.html.
also, look at the smith brothers glass offered by this dealer. there is strong familial resemblance to my vase and the works which they attribute to smith. however, i leave open the possibility that they created this vase while at mt washington c. 1875 which is 3 years prior to their departure from that company.
http://www.wpitt.com/artglass/smith1.html
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I've included pictures of "Baccarat" vases and their "signatures" in the next few post.......if you examine the signatures you'll find them quite "diverse" in style. If you take this into consideration, you can assume these signatures are "fake" and were added afterword...Another thing to consider is that I never see these vases for sale in France. I'm French and I've been frequenting EBAY France for years....
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More pics..
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more pics...
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last pic!
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c'est magnifique monsieur. vous avez reponde bien.
this is really a dream answer because it shows multiple instances of the signature and other vases which fit the look and feel of the vase about which i was puzzled.
although i certainly accept as plausible the signature being a later addition i also cannot rule out the signature being part of the production process. i say that because we now see too many vases with the signature - the idea being that it was a marketing ploy (assuming that no artist named baccarat worked at smith brothers.)
as noted previously i don't think that the quality is high enough for mt washington and don't think that that company would stoop to such a hokey stunt to sell glass. the smith brothers company is another story. not that their wares are bad - they are quite lovely - but i could see them having more motivation to use baccarat signature. however this is all speculation on my part and is rather immaterial to my understanding about the age or origin of the glass. it is most certainly american.
in any event, thank you so much for posting the images - they are really quite helpful. this has been good stuff.
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Wow what amazing stuff!
Thanks for posting them all
Someone had quite an industry going producing these -almost a shame they put on 'that signature' the pieces stand well on their own. It does look quite possible that the signatures were put on originally - I guess they thought they'd be safe from proscecution being across the atlantic.
Are they hot or cold enamelled? They look cold enamelled ie painted.
I've never seen anything like the in Europe!
fascinating -thanks!
Mike
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I have just looked up the registration of Baccarat as a trademark in the UK (often gives European registration) and US databases and it seems they didn't bother to register the name as a trademark until 1969 at the earliest. So that means those marks were never "illegal" and almost certainly not fake. It is possible a decorator used the name to draw attention to his wares, equally it could have been his name or the one he chose for his company. The shame lies more in the arrogance of Baccarat.
The question remains who was Baccarat in the context of these lovely items?
You would be surprised at how many trademarks are ostensibly the same, even within the same category, yet have different owners. It is also not wise to assume that because something is famous, it is trademarked, and also that anything originating from an unfamous company is "fake" because it has the same name as a famous one.
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I can't tell from all the images but it seems as if some of the feet are mould blown and some are applied hot and I wonder if this could be significant in any way. Also, some of the feet are black and I can't tell whether the colour is painted or actually in the glass.
I think that Baccarat were producing black glass around this period and if a clear blank with a black applied foot was used it could possibly have been bought from Baccarat and enamelled by an independent painter.
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All the vases that I've seen signed "Baccarat" are painted "milk glass" with a large polished pontil on the base...
Blair
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I wanted to make a comment on the signature "style" on these vases. For such beautifully painted vases you would think that the original producer would of been more consistent and "accurate" in reproducing their own signature. Most of the signatures were produced by a tool that scratched away the paint down to the milk glass that's why they appear "white" in color. One of the examples I provided shows a "blue" painted signature (why the change in signature style?). Last but not least is the signature on the pink vase which looks like a factory stamp of some sort. Of all the signatures shown, my opinion is that the signature on the pink vase is the "real mccoy".
Blair
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It is possible that the different individuals used variations on the Baccarat as their ID within the refinery. The pink one's signature does have the closest resemblance to "the Baccarat's" mark.
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Has anyone checked with the Baccarat museum, not always quick to reply... but in detail when they do.
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Similar designs have been attributed to Mt. Washington/Smith Bros. on page 145 of The Collector'a Encyclopedia of American Art Glass by John A. Schuman III and pages 132 and 137 of The World of Salt Shakers, 2nd Edition by Mildred and Ralph Lechner. I currently have an unmarked pink vase with two birds and two circles listed on the main eBay site using these attributions. Now I have to wonder if, in fact, they are Baccarat?
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I have a pair of vases with Baccarat signed in brown. They are a mottled green background with a bird on a branch looking up at a quarter-moon with a face (looking opposite directions), a branch on the back, are about 10.5 inches tall, and have a pedestal base with a 9. (I think or a small letter g with a dot to the bottom right). I purchased them from an elderly woman in the late 1970’s and have always wondered if they were actually made and signed by Baccarat. Did this question get completely answered? Thanks
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the vase which i initially posted was not made by baccarat - the famous crystal glass maker. the thread contains a couple of good suggestions for the manufacturer. if your vase looks anything like mine then read the thread to get the suggestions - i don't recall who they were but subsequent research confirmed the recommendations.
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Thanks for your quick response!
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Welcome to the board. If you'd like to post pics of your piece in a new topic we can take a look and see if we can help pin it down for you. Help with posting pics is here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6522.0.html but do shout if you get stuck and need help. :)
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Mystery solved??...Here's some more food for thought on Baccarat "painted" pieces...I recently came across this compote which still has the Baccarat sticker on the polished pontil...Note that the painting "style" of the birds is nearly identical to the birds we see on many of these vases....
/Blair
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Some more fuel for the fire!
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i absolutely love this....although i was happy to conclude that the glass was not baccarat perhaps i was premature.....although i am no expert on glass, i have watched enough snooty ones claim that something couldn't be something because of some rationalizing reasoning which sounded good but was totally wrong....
i would have never guessed that baccarat produced anything like this.....not that it's bad but it is not what i think of when i think baccarat....my horizons have been expanded.....this post has turned out to be superb.....
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Has anyone actually asked the Baccarat museum yet?